Unarmed Slayer


Advice


I am big fan of hybrid classes,sometimes they can do some things better then parents classes. Also i like slayer because of flexibility, and monkish classes because of their unarmed damage. Slayer and ranger can take Monastic Legacy (Unarmed combat style feat), but that damage will be not so high. How i can upgrade thats unarmed damage?


TWF & a style like jabbing style perhaps. Or panther style for more attacks, or pummeling style/pummeling charge for full attack damage when charging, but that last is a late game trick for a slayer.

I suspect an unchained monk will do what you want better but YMMV.


avr wrote:

TWF & a style like jabbing style perhaps. Or panther style for more attacks, or pummeling style/pummeling charge for full attack damage when charging, but that last is a late game trick for a slayer.

I suspect an unchained monk will do what you want better but YMMV.

Sorry, I didn’t put it right. I meant how to increase the damage dice of unarmed strikes,not the damage in general


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Pro100Andr wrote:
I meant how to increase the damage dice of unarmed strikes,not the damage in general

Why? Why do you care more about the base damage than the total damage?


Pro100Andr wrote:
Sorry, I didn’t put it right. I meant how to increase the damage dice of unarmed strikes,not the damage in general

Doesn't really matter, no? Damage is damage, and you're using a 20/x2 crit weapon so precision or add-on are pretty much just as good.

Ascetic Style (Unarmed Strike) going into Ascetic Strike could work. You get to ignore the Still Mind prerequisite of Monastic Legacy from the style, so I think the intention is that both effects stack.
So a level 10 character with Ascetic Strike and Monastic Legacy would deal damage as a 11th lv monk. And with that many effective monk levels I'm pretty sure Monk's Robe would work and add +5 levels.


Wonderstell wrote:
Ascetic Style (Unarmed Strike) going into Ascetic Strike could work. You get to ignore the Still Mind prerequisite of Monastic Legacy from the style, so I think the intention is that both effects stack.

They don't stack. Ascetic Strike doesn't even use effective monk level, it takes your character level -4, looks at the Monk table in the CRB, and uses that value. It doesn't matter if something affects your effective monk level (Monastic Legacy, Monk's Robe, actual Monk levels), because the feat doesn't use that for any calculation.

Wonderstell wrote:
And with that many effective monk levels I'm pretty sure Monk's Robe would work and add +5 levels.

Again, no. Monk's Robe checks for "levels in monk", which you don't have (even though you have an effective Monk level for unarmed strike damage), and thus you gain the "unarmed damage of a 5th-Level monk". With the Robe, you still don't have a Monk level, which is where Monastic Legacy adds half your off-monk levels to (as the feats adds to the actual Monk level and not any possible preexisting effective one, to then calculate the effective Monk level).


Derklord wrote:
Wonderstell wrote:
Ascetic Style (Unarmed Strike) going into Ascetic Strike could work. You get to ignore the Still Mind prerequisite of Monastic Legacy from the style, so I think the intention is that both effects stack.
They don't stack. Ascetic Strike doesn't even use effective monk level, it takes your character level -4, looks at the Monk table in the CRB, and uses that value. It doesn't matter if something affects your effective monk level (Monastic Legacy, Monk's Robe, actual Monk levels), because the feat doesn't use that for any calculation.

So in your opinion, what did the designer of the style feat path have in mind when they allowed you to ignore the Still Mind prerequisite for Monastic Legacy?

You know, the style feat path that is all about applying Unarmed Strike feats and class features to your chosen weapon. Given as part of Ascetic Strike, a feat that already grants you Unarmed Strike damage with your weapon. Seems rather obvious that it's meant to interact with Ascetic Strike in some way, no?

I'm aware the RAW is wonky. No need to tell me that the Ascetic Style feat is in dire need of errata.


Wonderstell wrote:
So in your opinion, what did the designer of the style feat path have in mind when they allowed you to ignore the Still Mind prerequisite for Monastic Legacy?

Honestly, I don't know. My best guess is improving unarmed strike as a back up option for the situations where you can't use the one specific weapon that works for you. Of course, it's possible Alexander Augunas (presuming it wasn't the editor who added that part in) simply didn't chose the wording careful enough, we know that's what happened with Ascetic Style. In any case, RAW, the feats don't stack, and neither works with Monk's Robe (Monastic Legacy does work with the Robe with at least one level in either Monk or Brawler).

Quite frankly, I didn't even know Ascetic Strike had that last sentence until this thread. I probably didn't memorize that because I consider both feats to be crap, as I actually do the math, and don't overvalue damage dice.

Seeing how they handled Crane Wing and a lot of stuff in Ultimate Equipment, I'm actually happy they never touched Ascetic Style.


Derklord wrote:
Wonderstell wrote:
Ascetic Style (Unarmed Strike) going into Ascetic Strike could work. You get to ignore the Still Mind prerequisite of Monastic Legacy from the style, so I think the intention is that both effects stack.

They don't stack. Ascetic Strike doesn't even use effective monk level, it takes your character level -4, looks at the Monk table in the CRB, and uses that value. It doesn't matter if something affects your effective monk level (Monastic Legacy, Monk's Robe, actual Monk levels), because the feat doesn't use that for any calculation.

Wonderstell wrote:
And with that many effective monk levels I'm pretty sure Monk's Robe would work and add +5 levels.
Again, no. Monk's Robe checks for "levels in monk", which you don't have (even though you have an effective Monk level for unarmed strike damage), and thus you gain the "unarmed damage of a 5th-Level monk". With the Robe, you still don't have a Monk level, which is where Monastic Legacy adds half your off-monk levels to (as the feats adds to the actual Monk level and not any possible preexisting effective one, to then calculate the effective Monk level).

I think thay are stacks. In description of Ascetic Strike there is sentense: "In addition, you ignore the still mind class feature prerequisite for the Monastic Legacy feat."

If they dont stack, why then was it written there? Why i need take Monastic Legacy(1/2 your level), if i can take Ascetic Strike(your level -4)?


avr wrote:

TWF & a style like jabbing style perhaps. Or panther style for more attacks, or pummeling style/pummeling charge for full attack damage when charging, but that last is a late game trick for a slayer.

I suspect an unchained monk will do what you want better but YMMV.

Jabbing style add only 1d6 of damage. Jabbing Master give cool damage bonus, fot that i need take Jabbing dancer(i think its a bad feat), dodge, mobility and be Monk or Brawler


Actually the way to parse those prereqs is one of the list after the semicolon & starting with BAB. Jabbing style you can get once you have 2 attacks whether that's by BAB or flurry, jabbing master requires +12 BAB or 8 levels in brawler or monk. Jabbing dancer gets you into a flanking position or out from being flanked, while still getting your full attack - which seems not a waste of a feat to me.

You're not going to get much better than 1d6 damage from one feat. Accomplished sneak attacker can match that but only when you're flanking. Dragon style & maybe dragon ferocity late game (ignore dragon roar) works if you're going to pump your strength really high with less prereq feats than jabbing; unless you're going to dip into master of many styles monk you can't use dragon and jabbing at the same time.


I made build based on your best recommendations

Human Slayer(12 lvl) 20rp

Str 18
Dex 16
Con 12
Wis 11
Cha 14

1lvl Toughness, Improved Unarmed strikes

2lvl RCS Two-Weapon Combat: TWF

3lvl Weapon Focus Unarmed Strike

4lvl ???

5lvl Ascetic Style

6lvl RCS Two-Weapon Combat: Imroved TWF

7lvl Ascetic Form

8lvl ???

9lvl Ascetic Strike

10lvl RCS Two-Weapon Combat: Greater TWF

11lvl Power Attack

12lvl Dodge, Two Weapon Rend

So, what are you think, and what i should take in place of questions?


avr wrote:

Actually the way to parse those prereqs is one of the list after the semicolon & starting with BAB. Jabbing style you can get once you have 2 attacks whether that's by BAB or flurry, jabbing master requires +12 BAB or 8 levels in brawler or monk. Jabbing dancer gets you into a flanking position or out from being flanked, while still getting your full attack - which seems not a waste of a feat to me.

You're not going to get much better than 1d6 damage from one feat. Accomplished sneak attacker can match that but only when you're flanking. Dragon style & maybe dragon ferocity late game (ignore dragon roar) works if you're going to pump your strength really high with less prereq feats than jabbing; unless you're going to dip into master of many styles monk you can't use dragon and jabbing at the same time.

If i take levels of MoMS, i can usefusing styles in armor?


Fuse styles works in armor yes, there's nothing to stop that.

The build above is a little confusing - ascetic style is for using weapons rather than unarmed strikes, but you're getting weapon focus (unarmed strike)?


avr wrote:

Fuse styles works in armor yes, there's nothing to stop that.

The build above is a little confusing - ascetic style is for using weapons rather than unarmed strikes, but you're getting weapon focus (unarmed strike)?

yes, i take it on 3 level. MoMS is cool, but classic monk have not full BBA(but i think some archetypes stucks with UnMonk)


i dont know what talents choose on 4 and 8 lvl


Im not correctly understand MoMS bonus style feats.Can i take Jabbing Master as that feat ot not?


MoMS bonus feats can be a style feat or, if you take 6+ levels in MoMS (which I don't recommend) they can be later feats in a style path, chosen each time you spend a swift action to start a style. Which could include jabbing master once you meet the prereqs for that. Only the first feat in a style path is a style feat.

Reading back others posts I see why you're going for ascetic style now. Sorta. Ascetic strike gives you similar bonus damage to monastic legacy but costs more feats and locks you out of other styles, which makes it unimpressive IMO.


avr wrote:

MoMS bonus feats can be a style feat or, if you take 6+ levels in MoMS (which I don't recommend) they can be later feats in a style path, chosen each time you spend a swift action to start a style. Which could include jabbing master once you meet the prereqs for that. Only the first feat in a style path is a style feat.

Reading back others posts I see why you're going for ascetic style now. Sorta. Ascetic strike gives you similar bonus damage to monastic legacy but costs more feats and locks you out of other styles, which makes it unimpressive IMO.

I think 1 level of UnMoMs Monk will be good. Ascetic line is feats expensive, but its give good unarmed damage. What styles i need to fuse with ascetic? I think about Boar. Its give 2d6 of damage and give slashing and piercing type of damage for unarmed strikes


Pro100Andr wrote:
If they dont stack, why then was it written there? Why i need take Monastic Legacy(1/2 your level), if i can take Ascetic Strike(your level -4)?

The Ascetic Style feat chain is for using a weapon. As I've said, Monastic Legacy is probably for having a backup option.

In the end, it doesn't matter, because as written, they don't stack. The writer's intend isn't actually relevant (as long as everything works well enough, which it does).

Pro100Andr wrote:
I think 1 level of UnMoMs Monk will be good.

MoMS is core Monk only, which in addition to delaying class features by a level, you also lose 1 BAB.

Pro100Andr wrote:
Ascetic line is feats expensive, but its give good unarmed damage.

No it doesn't! You're spending 3 feats, and in the level ranges you've given, that's worse than a trait (+1.17 average damage per feat at 12th level, +0.83 before).

Oh, and that's without a dip into Monk - with it, we're talking +0.33 average damage per feat at levels 8-11, and +0.67 at levels 12+.


Derklord wrote:
As I've said, Monastic Legacy is probably for having a backup option.

Well, like, that's just your opinion, man.

Derklord wrote:

No it doesn't! You're spending 3 feats, and in the level ranges you've given, that's worse than a trait (+1.17 average damage per feat at 12th level, +0.83 before).

Oh, and that's without a dip into Monk - with it, we're talking +0.33 average damage per feat at levels 8-11, and +0.67 at levels 12+.

Agreed. It's a terrible idea if you're after damage, and nobody cares if the damage you dealt came from your weapon dice or not. But sometimes people ask for highly ineffective builds because they have a specific concept in mind.


Wonderstell wrote:
Well, like, that's just your opinion, man.

Pro100Andr asked me "If they dont stack, why then was it written there?". You asked me "So in your opinion, what did the designer of the style feat path have in mind (...)?" And now you complain that I gave my opinion (that I clearly indicated as just that), after you explicitly asked for it? What the actual f@%$?

Silver Crusade

@Pro100Andr: What's your plan against the many, many Pathfinder foes that are so icky you don't ever want to be adjacent? E.g. Skeletons that explode, barbed devils, et cetera et cetera. There are dozens and they are rather common. What's you plan against something that harms you if you are adjacent? Hint: The answer is either reach or missile weapon.


Magda Luckbender wrote:
@Pro100Andr: What's your plan against the many, many Pathfinder foes that are so icky you don't ever want to be adjacent? E.g. Skeletons that explode, barbed devils, et cetera et cetera. There are dozens and they are rather common. What's you plan against something that harms you if you are adjacent? Hint: The answer is either reach or missile weapon.

I conceived this character as boss for my compaign, but i want use this concept as a player(thanks for explosive sleletons idea)


Magda Luckbender wrote:
@Pro100Andr: What's your plan against the many, many Pathfinder foes that are so icky you don't ever want to be adjacent? E.g. Skeletons that explode, barbed devils, et cetera et cetera. There are dozens and they are rather common. What's you plan against something that harms you if you are adjacent? Hint: The answer is either reach or missile weapon.

Also, im not big fan of Ranged Combat. Most of ranged builds are very similar


Derklord wrote:
Pro100Andr wrote:
If they dont stack, why then was it written there? Why i need take Monastic Legacy(1/2 your level), if i can take Ascetic Strike(your level -4)?

The Ascetic Style feat chain is for using a weapon. As I've said, Monastic Legacy is probably for having a backup option.

In the end, it doesn't matter, because as written, they don't stack. The writer's intend isn't actually relevant (as long as everything works well enough, which it does).

Pro100Andr wrote:
I think 1 level of UnMoMs Monk will be good.

MoMS is core Monk only, which in addition to delaying class features by a level, you also lose 1 BAB.

Pro100Andr wrote:
Ascetic line is feats expensive, but its give good unarmed damage.

No it doesn't! You're spending 3 feats, and in the level ranges you've given, that's worse than a trait (+1.17 average damage per feat at 12th level, +0.83 before).

Oh, and that's without a dip into Monk - with it, we're talking +0.33 average damage per feat at levels 8-11, and +0.67 at levels 12+.

Not 3 feats. I need take 5 feats for that:Impoved Unarmed strike, Weapon Focus and Ascetic Style chain


Derklord wrote:
Pro100Andr wrote:
If they dont stack, why then was it written there? Why i need take Monastic Legacy(1/2 your level), if i can take Ascetic Strike(your level -4)?

The Ascetic Style feat chain is for using a weapon. As I've said, Monastic Legacy is probably for having a backup option.

In the end, it doesn't matter, because as written, they don't stack. The writer's intend isn't actually relevant (as long as everything works well enough, which it does).

Pro100Andr wrote:
I think 1 level of UnMoMs Monk will be good.

MoMS is core Monk only, which in addition to delaying class features by a level, you also lose 1 BAB.

Pro100Andr wrote:
Ascetic line is feats expensive, but its give good unarmed damage.

No it doesn't! You're spending 3 feats, and in the level ranges you've given, that's worse than a trait (+1.17 average damage per feat at 12th level, +0.83 before).

Oh, and that's without a dip into Monk - with it, we're talking +0.33 average damage per feat at levels 8-11, and +0.67 at levels 12+.

I know that i cant use classic monk Archetypes for UnMonk, but i think that rule is stupid. Why cant take archetypes that change abilities, thats have UnMonk and classic most(just my opinion)


Pro100Andr wrote:
Not 3 feats. I need take 5 feats for that:Impoved Unarmed strike, Weapon Focus and Ascetic Style chain

You need IUS in any case, and Weapon Focus has its own beneficial effects. Ascetic Style and Ascetic Form are pure tax feats for you, though.

You know you can delete the part in a quote that you're not addressing, right?

Pro100Andr wrote:
I know that i cant use classic monk Archetypes for UnMonk, but i think that rule is stupid. Why cant take archetypes that change abilities, thats have UnMonk and classic most(just my opinion)

Because the changes in the class are too vast. Many of the cMonk archetypes are deliberately stronger than the base class (normally a no-go for archetypes), to compensate for cMonk being so weak. unMonk, however is not weak, and thus these archetypes would be problematic when used with unMonk. cMonk has medium BAB leevated to full-BAB-levels via Flurry, which has a -2 penalty, none of this is true for unMonk. Which gets problematic e.g. when Zen Archer uses that -2 penalty to imitate Rapid Shot, or when MoMSs grants an attack roll bonus at 8th level to compensate for the archetype lacking the de-facto-full-BAB from Flurry of Blows; an unMoMS would have full BAB and the attack roll bonus.

Also, Style Strikes don't work if you tamper with Flurry.

@Magda: It seem that you're letting your love of reach taint your objective outlook, which negatively affects the quality of your posts. Please stop this. Unarmed builds and other non-reach builds work fine, claiming otherwise is disingenuous. This doesn't mean one should't carry a bockup ranged weapon, but that is not what your post focussed on.

Grand Lodge

Magda Luckbender wrote:
@Pro100Andr: What's your plan against the many, many Pathfinder foes that are so icky you don't ever want to be adjacent? E.g. Skeletons that explode, barbed devils, et cetera et cetera. There are dozens and they are rather common. What's you plan against something that harms you if you are adjacent? Hint: The answer is either reach or missile weapon.

Reach characters can be quickly identified and neutered without sufficient disturbance achieved. It works correctly in defence situations, not when the party has to storm the castle and has to enter into enemy territory instead. The only way to reliably force opponents to go into reach is to proactively do so. Passively rarely works, if never.

Silver Crusade

Huh? My point was that melee PCs with only 5' reach and no viable missile weapon have no way to counter 'icky' foes. Such foes are common. Every martial PC needs a way to deal with foes they don't want to be near.


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Philippe Lam wrote:
Reach characters can be quickly identified and neutered without sufficient disturbance achieved.

How do you "neuter" someone with 20 ft reach, exactly?

Philippe Lam wrote:
It works correctly in defence situations, not when the party has to storm the castle and has to enter into enemy territory instead. The only way to reliably force opponents to go into reach is to proactively do so. Passively rarely works, if never.

The trick is to have superior reach. If your reach is [enemy reach+10], you can deny enemies their full-attacks and gain AoOs even if you were the one who approached them first. Not to mention that having greater reach means more full-attacks since you don't need to move as often, if at all.

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