Fighter retraining feat question


Rules Questions

Grand Lodge

Hi
The text regarding retraining does not take archtype specific bonus feats, that has replaced the fighters ordinary bonus combat feats into account.

Could you retrain the corsair's Cleave and greater cleave feats?
The Spear Fighter's Dodge feat (not af bonus combat feat replacement)?
The Lorewarden's Combat expertise feat?
The Unbreakable's Endurance and Die Hard feats?
The Siegebreaker's Step Up or Disruptive feat?
The Unarmed Fighter's Improved unarmed strike?

There are properly more examples, but you get the idea.

The text regarding retraining:
"Upon reaching 4th level, and every four levels thereafter (8th, 12th, and so on), a fighter can choose to learn a new bonus feat in place of a bonus feat he has already learned. In effect, the fighter loses the bonus feat in exchange for the new one. The old feat cannot be one that was used as a prerequisite for another feat, prestige class, or other ability. A fighter can only change one feat at any given level and must choose whether or not to swap the feat at the time he gains a new bonus feat for the level."

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

The feats are part of the archetype. To retrain them you need to abandon the archetype and use the retraining rules from the Ultimate Campagn book.

Grand Lodge

Yeah... I would think so to, but where do you find it in the rules?

The feats are not a prerequisite to gain the archtypes.
I know two archtype are not comparable if they replace/alters the same class features, but this isn't the case here either.


Those archetypes don't give you a standard fighter bonus feat. They give you a fixed feat. You can't use the bonus feat retraining rules on fixed feats.


More specifically, the archetypes give you feats as a Class Feature. If you look at the general retraining rules you'll see

Retraining Feats wrote:
You may change one feat to another through retraining. Retraining a feat takes 5 days with a character who has the feat you want. The old feat can’t be one you used as a prerequisite for a feat, class feature, archetype, prestige class, or other ability. If the old feat is a bonus feat granted by a class feature, you must replace it with a feat that you could choose using that class feature.

If the class feature gives you choices you can retrain to select a different choice. You can't just retrain a feat that you received when you have no choice in which feat you receive.

Grand Lodge

Meirril wrote:

More specifically, the archetypes give you feats as a Class Feature. If you look at the general retraining rules you'll see

Retraining Feats wrote:
You may change one feat to another through retraining. Retraining a feat takes 5 days with a character who has the feat you want. The old feat can’t be one you used as a prerequisite for a feat, class feature, archetype, prestige class, or other ability. If the old feat is a bonus feat granted by a class feature, you must replace it with a feat that you could choose using that class feature.
If the class feature gives you choices you can retrain to select a different choice. You can't just retrain a feat that you received when you have no choice in which feat you receive.

Yes, but the fighter feat retraining rules, are not the generally rules. It is a fighter only option. A Specific exception to the general rules.

It works on all bonus feats - Paizo didn’t write combat bonus feats only, and they didn’t write anything about archtypes.

The sorcerer has a similar written rule aboaut retraining spells:

“Upon reaching 4th level, and at every even-numbered sorcerer level after that (6th, 8th, and so on), a sorcerer can choose to learn a new spell in place of one she already knows. In effect, the sorcerer loses the old spell in exchange for the new one. The new spell’s level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged. A sorcerer may swap only a single spell at any given level, and must choose whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that she gains new spells known for the level.”

But the sorcerer has this exception:
“At 3rd level, and every two levels thereafter, a sorcerer learns an additional spell, derived from her bloodline. These spells are in addition to the number of spells given on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known. These spells cannot be exchanged for different spells at higher levels.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

1) Archetype: At level x you get "specific feat A".
2) Fighter: you can retrain bonus feats.
3) You retrain "specific feat A" using the fighter ability. What are your choices? Only bonus feat A, as it is the only feat available.

EVen more clear:

FAQ wrote:

Fighter: What feats can I retrain at level 4, 8, and so on?

Class entries in the Core Rulebook are written assuming that your character is single-classed (not multiclassed). The fighter's ability to retrain feats allows you to retrain one of your fighter bonus feats (gained at 1st level, 2nd level, 4th level, and so on). You can't use it to retrain feats (combat feats or otherwise) from any other source, such as your feats at level 1, 3, etc., your 1st-level human bonus feat, or bonus feats from other classes.

You may want to asterisk your fighter bonus feats on your character sheet so you can easily determine which you can retrain later.

Quote:
Improved Deck Fighting (Ex): At 6th level, the corsair gains Great Cleave as a bonus feat. He may use this feat even if he does not meet the prerequisites. A corsair does not take the normal –2 penalty to his AC when using the Great Cleave feat. This ability replaces the fighter’s 6th-level bonus feat.

"Improved deck figthing" replace the fighter bonus feat. It give you a bonus feat, not a fighter bonus feat.


Or to put it another way, the archetypes remove the fighter bonus feat class feature for that level, granting you a different class feature instead.

Since that fighter bonus feat class feature is replaced, it is not a valid option for retraining using the bonus feats retraining class feature of the fighter.

Grand Lodge

Diego Rossi wrote:

1) Archetype: At level x you get "specific feat A".

2) Fighter: you can retrain bonus feats.
3) You retrain "specific feat A" using the fighter ability. What are your choices? Only bonus feat A, as it is the only feat available.

EVen more clear:

FAQ wrote:

Fighter: What feats can I retrain at level 4, 8, and so on?

Class entries in the Core Rulebook are written assuming that your character is single-classed (not multiclassed). The fighter's ability to retrain feats allows you to retrain one of your fighter bonus feats (gained at 1st level, 2nd level, 4th level, and so on). You can't use it to retrain feats (combat feats or otherwise) from any other source, such as your feats at level 1, 3, etc., your 1st-level human bonus feat, or bonus feats from other classes.

You may want to asterisk your fighter bonus feats on your character sheet so you can easily determine which you can retrain later.

Quote:
Improved Deck Fighting (Ex): At 6th level, the corsair gains Great Cleave as a bonus feat. He may use this feat even if he does not meet the prerequisites. A corsair does not take the normal –2 penalty to his AC when using the Great Cleave feat. This ability replaces the fighter’s 6th-level bonus feat.
"Improved deck figthing" replace the fighter bonus feat. It give you a bonus feat, not a fighter bonus feat.

Thanks Diego Rossi - this was what I was searching for.

Can you link to the FAQ?


FAQ. Easy enough to find given it was obviously in the core rulebook FAQ.

Grand Lodge

avr wrote:
FAQ. Easy enough to find given it was obviously in the core rulebook FAQ.

Thank you AVR.

Liberty's Edge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
avr wrote:
FAQ. Easy enough to find given it was obviously in the core rulebook FAQ.

"Obviously." LOL.

You don't know how many times I had a hard time finding a FAQ that wasn't where I thought it should "obviously" be.

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