Cape of the Mountebank question


Rules Questions


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

Can I use the Cape to take allies with me per the Dimension Door spell

The reason I am confused it the flavor text saying the wearer (singular) disappears and reappears in a puff of grey smoke...

But the rules element only suggest the spell functions like normal.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Lanathar wrote:

Can I use the Cape to take allies with me per the Dimension Door spell

The reason I am confused it the flavor text saying the wearer (singular) disappears and reappears in a puff of grey smoke...

But the rules element only suggest the spell functions like normal.

Quote:
Once per day on command, this bright red and gold cape allows the wearer to use the magic of the dimension door spell. When he disappears, he leaves behind a cloud of harmless gray smoke, appearing in a similar dramatic fashion at his destination.

What flavor text? It is all rules about how the item works.

1) "Once per day "
2) "allows the wearer to use the magic of the dimension door spell."
3) "When he disappears, he leaves behind a cloud of harmless gray smoke, appearing in a similar dramatic fashion at his destination."

1) It is usable 1/day;
2) it affects the wearer (only) and moves him with dimension door;
3) it creates a cloud of gray smoke in the starting and arrival points.

The only part that can be called flavor is "this bright red and gold cape" and even that is meant to define the cape. It is a flamboyant item, it isn't meant to be an everyday cape.


Yikes . Well one (more) of my PCs should have died last session...

I knew my instinct was right on this

I thought the smoke part was flavour and the “rules” part was the part about using the dimension door spell - which works for more than just the person casting (that is what they argued)


"allows the wearer to use the magic of the dimension door spell". if a wizard uses the magic of a dimension door spell, he can bring friends. why is it different if the wearer of a cape uses the magic of a dimension door spell? personally, i'd allow it as a dm.


dbauers wrote:
"allows the wearer to use the magic of the dimension door spell". if a wizard uses the magic of a dimension door spell, he can bring friends. why is it different if the wearer of a cape uses the magic of a dimension door spell? personally, i'd allow it as a dm.

I agree.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
blahpers wrote:
dbauers wrote:
"allows the wearer to use the magic of the dimension door spell". if a wizard uses the magic of a dimension door spell, he can bring friends. why is it different if the wearer of a cape uses the magic of a dimension door spell? personally, i'd allow it as a dm.
I agree.

The reason why it moves only the wearer is exactly in the text you cited. It doesn't cast the spell, it only "allows the wearer to use the magic of the dimension door spell".

It doesn't allow "the wearer and n friends to use the magic of dimension door".

A wizard doesn't "use the magic of dimension door", he cast it at his caster level.


I concur with dbauers and the pig, the cape allows its wearer to use the Dimension Door spell. The Dimension Door spell allows for the caster to have passengers hence so does the cape.


Diego Rossi wrote:
blahpers wrote:
dbauers wrote:
"allows the wearer to use the magic of the dimension door spell". if a wizard uses the magic of a dimension door spell, he can bring friends. why is it different if the wearer of a cape uses the magic of a dimension door spell? personally, i'd allow it as a dm.
I agree.

The reason why it moves only the wearer is exactly in the text you cited. It doesn't cast the spell, it only "allows the wearer to use the magic of the dimension door spell".

It doesn't allow "the wearer and n friends to use the magic of dimension door".

A wizard doesn't "use the magic of dimension door", he cast it at his caster level.

When a wizard casts dimension door on himself and his barbarian friend, the wizard is the one using the magic of dimension door, and both he and the barbarian benefit. When a cleric uses mass cure light wounds, the cleric is using the magic of mass cure light wounds, and the cleric and allies benefit. There is no difference between that and the cape wearer using the magic of dimension door thru the cape.

For the item to work as you are stating, I would expect the wording of the cape to say something along the lines of “the wearer can transport himself as though he had used dimension door”


So I have done some digging and found this about pricing of magic items:
http://legacy.aonprd.com/coreRuleBook/magicItems/magicItemCreation.html

In it it says command word items should cost CL x Spell Level x 1,800.

This would put the cap at a value of 64,800 - 6 times what it actually costs

This points to me that the effect should be more limited. The points made above relate to unclear wording issues that are all due to this being a legacy 3.5 item with the wording not changed at all

I found a 3.5 debate about this very question that also had differing views so it has never been clear.
For what little it is worth the pathfinder 2E version transports only the user (but partly because the spell was changed)

The odd thing about the link is it lists the cape as an example when the maths completely doesn’t work (so a bad example was picked)

Unless the formula should be x 300. That can only be established by finding other items with a one use magical effect . None immediately spring to mind but I will do a check. My expectation is that this formula will be all over the place for legacy items but it should be accurate for PF created items

Edit: I checked boots of flying and the formula doesn’t work for them either as CL8 gives 43,200. CL 5 (as they work for 5 minutes) give 27,000 - both higher than the actual item value (closer than the cape)


The price you listed is for an item that works on command with no limit. Since the cape of the mountebank works only once per day, it's

CL × spell level × 1,800 gp * (uses per day / 5)
= 9 × 4 × 1,800 gp * (1 / 5)
= 12,960 gp.

This is reasonably close to the item's 10,800 gp price, The difference could be plausibly explained by either a wearer-only limitation, the ostentatiousness with which you appear, or just plain balance fudging.


There is a separate entry for constant effects (2k squares)

Where does the divide by 5 come in? Did part of the formula get cut off on my phone or is it written somewhere else ?


Given that the formula for magic item pricing is the last option after following all the other rules for determining magic item pricing, I'm not persuaded that using it to justify a ruling on how extensive the dimension door ability of the cape is a good way to determine what the allowed targets of the effect is.

The allowed targets in this case is the wearer, and only the wearer. Otherwise it would just say something like "Allows the wearer to cast dimension door as a 7th level spell caster".

Or are we suggesting a ring of invisiblity allows you to touch someone not wearing the ring to turn them invisible?

Ring of Invisibility wrote:


By activating this simple silver ring, the wearer can benefit from invisibility, as the spell.

Or a helm of teleport to transport your party

Helm of Teleportation wrote:


A character wearing this helm may teleport three times per day, instantly transporting himself and objects he might be carrying on his person to a designated destination, exactly as if he had cast the spell of the same name.


Lanathar wrote:

There is a separate entry for constant effects (2k squares)

Where does the divide by 5 come in? Did part of the formula get cut off on my phone or is it written somewhere else ?

CRB wrote:

Spell Effect Base Price Example

Single use, spell completion Spell level × caster level × 25 gp Scroll of haste
Single use, use-activated Spell level × caster level × 50 gp Potion of cure light wounds
50 charges, spell trigger Spell level × caster level × 750 gp Wand of fireball
Command word Spell level × caster level × 1,800 gp Cape of the mountebank
Use-activated or continuous Spell level × caster level × 2,000 gp2 Lantern of revealing

Special Base Price Adjustment Example
Charges per day Divide by (5 divided by charges per day) Boots of teleportation
No space limitation3 Multiply entire cost by 2 Ioun stone
Multiple different abilities Multiply lower item cost by 1.5 Helm of brilliance
Charged (50 charges) 1/2 unlimited use base price Ring of the ram

The "continuous" line (2,000 gp) is for items that don't need to be activated at all to work--you're paying for action economy at that point.

Also, it isn't squared--the "2" superscript refers to a footnote:

Quote:
2 If a continuous item has an effect based on a spell with a duration measured in rounds, multiply the cost by 4. If the duration of the spell is 1 minute/level, multiply the cost by 2, and if the duration is 10 minutes/level, multiply the cost by 1.5. If the spell has a 24-hour duration or greater, divide the cost in half.

That doesn't apply to the cape, though, as it isn't a continuous effect.


blahpers wrote:
Lanathar wrote:

There is a separate entry for constant effects (2k squares)

Where does the divide by 5 come in? Did part of the formula get cut off on my phone or is it written somewhere else ?

CRB wrote:

Spell Effect Base Price Example

Single use, spell completion Spell level × caster level × 25 gp Scroll of haste
Single use, use-activated Spell level × caster level × 50 gp Potion of cure light wounds
50 charges, spell trigger Spell level × caster level × 750 gp Wand of fireball
Command word Spell level × caster level × 1,800 gp Cape of the mountebank
Use-activated or continuous Spell level × caster level × 2,000 gp2 Lantern of revealing

Special Base Price Adjustment Example
Charges per day Divide by (5 divided by charges per day) Boots of teleportation
No space limitation3 Multiply entire cost by 2 Ioun stone
Multiple different abilities Multiply lower item cost by 1.5 Helm of brilliance
Charged (50 charges) 1/2 unlimited use base price Ring of the ram

The "continuous" line (2,000 gp) is for items that don't need to be activated at all to work--you're paying for action economy at that point.

Also, it isn't squared--the "2" superscript refers to a footnote:

Quote:
2 If a continuous item has an effect based on a spell with a duration measured in rounds, multiply the cost by 4. If the duration of the spell is 1 minute/level, multiply the cost by 2, and if the duration is 10 minutes/level, multiply the cost by 1.5. If the spell has a 24-hour duration or greater, divide the cost in half.
That doesn't apply to the cape, though, as it isn't a continuous effect.

Thanks I missed that and missed that the 2 was a note. With both the charges point and that combined the formulas make considerably more sense


bbangerter wrote:

Given that the formula for magic item pricing is the last option after following all the other rules for determining magic item pricing, I'm not persuaded that using it to justify a ruling on how extensive the dimension door ability of the cape is a good way to determine what the allowed targets of the effect is.

The allowed targets in this case is the wearer, and only the wearer. Otherwise it would just say something like "Allows the wearer to cast dimension door as a 7th level spell caster".

Or are we suggesting a ring of invisiblity allows you to touch someone not wearing the ring to turn them invisible?

Ring of Invisibility wrote:


By activating this simple silver ring, the wearer can benefit from invisibility, as the spell.

Or a helm of teleport to transport your party

Helm of Teleportation wrote:


A character wearing this helm may teleport three times per day, instantly transporting himself and objects he might be carrying on his person to a designated destination, exactly as if he had cast the spell of the same name.

So another in favour of wearer only . Interesting

And not as clear cut as it seems

I tend to find an overwhelming majority of rules interpretations in discussions like these favour the players on these boards as they are far numerous than GMs and in my experience as a GM looking for every advantage they can get

So I am always interested to see less favourable interpretations like this one (and rightly or wrongly apply for scrutiny for arguments in favour of the most generous interpretations of rules)


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The wearer of a ring of invisibility benefits from the spell. They don't benefit from the ability to cast it.

The helm of teleportation explicitly states it works on you and your stuff, and that's all.

The cape allows you to use the magic of a spell. That is some goofy, flowery, non-specific language in what has become an extremely technical game.
Is it simply a paraphrasing of "allows you to cast"? Or is it "allows you to benefit from the effects of?"

There's just no solid evidence either way.

On one hand, I think the simplest explanation would be that you just cast the spell.
On the other, the thematic tone of the cape would maybe sort of suggest that it only works on you. Maybe. That's by far the weakest argument here.
On the other other, it's an item that takes up your cloak slot doesn't boost your Fortitude or Will saves, so why make it worse?

As far as arguments favoring the players or the GM goes, I don't think the (main) reason behind the trend to side with players is because there are more players. I think player advocacy is a pretty big deal for most GM's, myself included.
Especially when it comes to little things like this; a cool but suboptimal item is used in a situation to take some of the sting out of an already bad situation. I see no need to kick them while they're down.
And if I ever get too open-handed with resources and rules interpretations...is not like I'm going to run out of monsters.


Quixote wrote:

The wearer of a ring of invisibility benefits from the spell. They don't benefit from the ability to cast it.

The helm of teleportation explicitly states it works on you and your stuff, and that's all.

The cape allows you to use the magic of a spell. That is some goofy, flowery, non-specific language in what has become an extremely technical game.
Is it simply a paraphrasing of "allows you to cast"? Or is it "allows you to benefit from the effects of?"

There's just no solid evidence either way.

On one hand, I think the simplest explanation would be that you just cast the spell.
On the other, the thematic tone of the cape would maybe sort of suggest that it only works on you. Maybe. That's by far the weakest argument here.
On the other other, it's an item that takes up your cloak slot doesn't boost your Fortitude or Will saves, so why make it worse?

As far as arguments favoring the players or the GM goes, I don't think the (main) reason behind the trend to side with players is because there are more players. I think player advocacy is a pretty big deal for most GM's, myself included.
Especially when it comes to little things like this; a cool but suboptimal item is used in a situation to take some of the sting out of an already bad situation. I see no need to kick them while they're down.
And if I ever get too open-handed with resources and rules interpretations...is not like I'm going to run out of monsters.

In this particular scenario the “taking up a cloak slot” is not an issue as we play with ABP. And it has turned out to be phenomenally powerful for exactly the reason of unlocking the ability to use these items

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Quixote wrote:


As far as arguments favoring the players or the GM goes, I don't think the (main) reason behind the trend to side with players is because there are more players. I think player advocacy is a pretty big deal for most GM's, myself included.
Especially when it comes to little things like this; a cool but suboptimal item is used in a situation to take some of the sting out of an already bad situation. I see no need to kick them while they're down.
And if I ever get too open-handed with resources and rules interpretations...is not like I'm going to run out of monsters.

I really dislike the concept of the "rule of cool", as bending a rule in one instance because "it is cool" means having that rule bent for the whole campaign, even when it is not cool at all.

Consider the Cape of the mountebank example. It is cool to allow the whole party to escape with it, but then it gives the whole party te ability to use dimension door as a group for the entire campaign without the need to prepare the spell or know it.
Even more "fun": as you can use a magic item to get the prerequisites to make another magic item, you can use the cape to pay for the prerequisites. Cape to scrolls of dimension door.


Lanathar wrote:
Quixote wrote:

The wearer of a ring of invisibility benefits from the spell. They don't benefit from the ability to cast it.

The helm of teleportation explicitly states it works on you and your stuff, and that's all.

The cape allows you to use the magic of a spell. That is some goofy, flowery, non-specific language in what has become an extremely technical game.
Is it simply a paraphrasing of "allows you to cast"? Or is it "allows you to benefit from the effects of?"

There's just no solid evidence either way.

On one hand, I think the simplest explanation would be that you just cast the spell.
On the other, the thematic tone of the cape would maybe sort of suggest that it only works on you. Maybe. That's by far the weakest argument here.
On the other other, it's an item that takes up your cloak slot doesn't boost your Fortitude or Will saves, so why make it worse?

As far as arguments favoring the players or the GM goes, I don't think the (main) reason behind the trend to side with players is because there are more players. I think player advocacy is a pretty big deal for most GM's, myself included.
Especially when it comes to little things like this; a cool but suboptimal item is used in a situation to take some of the sting out of an already bad situation. I see no need to kick them while they're down.
And if I ever get too open-handed with resources and rules interpretations...is not like I'm going to run out of monsters.

In this particular scenario the “taking up a cloak slot” is not an issue as we play with ABP. And it has turned out to be phenomenally powerful for exactly the reason of unlocking the ability to use these items

Combining mulitple magic effecs into a single effect is also a thing even without ABP. Just add 50% to the cost of the cheaper enchantment.

The general pattern of magic items is that they benefit the wearer/holder/owner of the item and not anyone else (barring some specific items that target multiple enemies - bead of fireballs - so aren't a direct benefit to the owner). I can't think of a single item off the top of my head that benefits the party (other than wands/scrolls with AoE buff spells in them). I expect there are some, they are either just such low key items that I rarely/never see them get used in a game, or so expensive most games don't reach the wealth levels needed to see them.

I would find it odd for the cape of the mountebank to be an exception to that general practice based upon a weak usage of the English language as opposed to an explicit declaration that it is indeed a "spell in a can magic" item.

If someone has an example of a group magic item, I'd be interested to see it, and unravel the specific language it uses to indicate it does indeed work as a group magic item.

To address a specific comment from quixote regarding "why make the item worse?" I don't care what the relative power of different items, abilities, classes, etc are when it comes to understanding the rules properly. I prefer to get the rules right - then make house rules where I prefer a different result, rule of cool, etc. I can always "fix" the game to my liking, but for the rules forum at least I want to know how devs intended it to work.


bbangerter wrote:

I would find it odd for the cape of the mountebank to be an exception to that general practice based upon a weak usage of the English language as opposed to an explicit declaration that it is indeed a "spell in a can magic" item.

If someone has an example of a group magic item, I'd be interested to see it, and unravel the specific language it uses to indicate it does indeed work as a group magic item.

Pathfinder isn't a set of strong rules, given the amount of individual cases that have to stand on their own, akin to what civil law is. It isn't even akin to common law. There does not need to be an exemple other than this one for this one to be valid.

We have to rely on what the text of the item in question says without inferring from the rules of other items.
Maybe usage by multiple people at once wasn't the intent of the author, maybe it was. This is the rules forum, there is no spirit of the law, only positive law. As such, the cape of the mountebank allows its wearer to transport passangers along for the ride.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Agénor wrote:
bbangerter wrote:

I would find it odd for the cape of the mountebank to be an exception to that general practice based upon a weak usage of the English language as opposed to an explicit declaration that it is indeed a "spell in a can magic" item.

If someone has an example of a group magic item, I'd be interested to see it, and unravel the specific language it uses to indicate it does indeed work as a group magic item.

Pathfinder isn't a set of strong rules, given the amount of individual cases that have to stand on their own, akin to what civil law is. It isn't even akin to common law. There does not need to be an exemple other than this one for this one to be valid.

We have to rely on what the text of the item in question says without inferring from the rules of other items.
Maybe usage by multiple people at once wasn't the intent of the author, maybe it was. This is the rules forum, there is no spirit of the law, only positive law. As such, the cape of the mountebank allows its wearer to transport passangers along for the ride.

Where you find that?

It says:
Quote:
Once per day on command, this bright red and gold cape allows the wearer to use the magic of the dimension door spell. When he disappears, he leaves behind a cloud of harmless gray smoke, appearing in a similar dramatic fashion at his destination.

Nowhere it says that it cast the spell.

This is an example of an item that allows you to cast spells:

Quote:

STRAND OF PRAYER BEADS

This item appears to be nothing more than a string of prayer beads until the owner casts a divine spell while the beads are carried. Once that occurs, the owner instantly knows the powers of the prayer beads and understands how to activate the strand’s special magical beads. Each strand includes two or more special beads, each with a different magic power selected from the following list.

Special Bead Type Special Bead Ability
Bead of blessing Wearer can cast bless.
Bead of healing Wearer can cast his choice of cure serious wounds, remove blindness/deafness, or remove disease.
Bead of karma Wearer casts his spells at +4 caster level. Effect lasts 10 minutes.
Bead of smiting Wearer can cast chaos hammer, holy smite, order’s wrath, or unholy blight (Will DC 17 partial).
Bead of summons Summons a powerful creature of appropriate alignment from the Outer Planes (an angel, devil, etc.) to aid the wearer for 1 day. (If the wearer uses the bead of summons to summon a deity’s emissary frivolously, the deity takes that character’s items
and places a geas upon him as punishment at the very least.)
Bead of wind walking Wearer can cast wind walk.

Every time it says explicitly that the wearer can cast the appropriate spell or spells.


There are also examples of items that clear about only the wearer benefiting from a magic effect similar to a spell when the spell would allow several recepients.
- can't fetch them now, life is in the way^^ -

However, it matters little how the wording is for other items. Writing isn't consistent in Pathfinder so this isn't a compelling argument.

The text of the cape of the mountebank is, as this discussion shows, ambiguous. What is sure is that the cape is either able to take passangers or not able to take passangers, no middle ground between the two readings.
Of the two mutually exclusive possibilities, the text is closer to allowing passangers than to not allowing them.

I do see why you read it the way you do, looking for other data points to draw a graph. A sound approach this is for events naturally occurring but not when looking at rules written by several people.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I fail to see where "Of the two mutually exclusive possibilities, the text is closer to allowing passangers than to not allowing them." It says "it allow the user" and "When he disappears, he leaves behind a cloud of harmless gray smoke", so where you find that it is close at allowing other pople to benefit from the effect?


I went back through the editions of DnD. Here's what I found...

Dimension door has changed little, though it used to be possible to get stuck in the astral plane, rather than just taking damage. No help there.

The Cape of the Mountebank came in with 3.0 and hasn't been changed since. Still vague.

In 2007 WotC had both a class and a prestige class of Mountebank. Each had a modified dimension door ability.

From dragon compendium volume 1:
Infernal Jaunt: by expending one of her uses of her infernal patron ability, the mountebank can slide through planar space in a manner similar to dimension door. She can use this ability to travel a total of 10 feet + 5 feet per mountebank level. She activates this ability as a move action and may take her other actions as normal after arriving at her destination. When the mountebank uses this ability, she disappears and reappears in a small puff of brimstone.

From Complete Scoundrel:
Sideslip: beginning at 4th level you become supernaturally elusive. Once per day as a standard action, you can transfer yourself from your current space to another up to 20 feet away. This ability otherwise works like the dimension door spell, except that you cannot transport other creatures with you.

From these examples, it seems that the developers act under the assumption that the mountebank (class, prestige class and presumably Cape) transports only himself.


Diego Rossi wrote:
Nowhere it says that it cast the spell.

Yeah, it does.

Cape of the Montebank wrote:
this bright red and gold cape allows the wearer to use the magic of the dimension door spell.

So, you are arguing that you "use the magic of the dimension door spell," but you aren't casting dimension door? And that somehow means you don't get to use the magic of dimension door?

Lanathar wrote:
Can I use the Cape to take allies with me per the Dimension Door spell

Well, the cape lets you "use the magic of the dimension door spell." Does the magic of the Dimension Door Spell let you take a passenger with you? Well,

Dimension Door wrote:
You may also bring one additional willing Medium or smaller creature (carrying gear or objects up to its maximum load) or its equivalent per three caster levels. A Large creature counts as two Medium creatures, a Huge creature counts as two Large creatures, and so forth. All creatures to be transported must be in contact with one another, and at least one of those creatures must be in contact with you.
Diego Rossi wrote:
it only "allows the wearer to use the magic of the dimension door spell".

So, yeah, only the wearer gets to use the magic, but "the magic" itself specifies the power to bring passengers.


Agénor wrote:

Pathfinder isn't a set of strong rules, given the amount of individual cases that have to stand on their own, akin to what civil law is. It isn't even akin to common law. There does not need to be an exemple other than this one for this one to be valid.
We have to rely on what the text of the item in question says without inferring from the rules of other items.
Maybe usage by multiple people at once wasn't the intent of the author, maybe it was. This is the rules forum, there is no spirit of the law, only positive law. As such, the cape of the mountebank allows its wearer to transport passangers along for the ride.

While specific rules exist to override other rules, that does not mean precedents are not set. You can certainly argue whether such a precedent exists and is meaningful when it comes to magic items benefitting only the wearer, but this will really come down to personal interpetation of rules - just like the vague wording on the cloak is ultimately going to come down to personal interpetation.

I provided the information as indirect evidence of why I think it is personal only.


Side note, I have trouble understanding this last proposition of the spell:

Dimension Door wrote:
and at least one of those creatures must be in contact with you.

It makes me believe that either

Passenger-Caster-Passenger fails
or
Caster Passenger-Passenger succeeds.


Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
Nowhere it says that it cast the spell.

Yeah, it does.

Cape of the Montebank wrote:
this bright red and gold cape allows the wearer to use the magic of the dimension door spell.

So, you are arguing that you "use the magic of the dimension door spell," but you aren't casting dimension door? And that somehow means you don't get to use the magic of dimension door?

Lanathar wrote:
Can I use the Cape to take allies with me per the Dimension Door spell

Well, the cape lets you "use the magic of the dimension door spell." Does the magic of the Dimension Door Spell let you take a passenger with you? Well,

Dimension Door wrote:
You may also bring one additional willing Medium or smaller creature (carrying gear or objects up to its maximum load) or its equivalent per three caster levels. A Large creature counts as two Medium creatures, a Huge creature counts as two Large creatures, and so forth. All creatures to be transported must be in contact with one another, and at least one of those creatures must be in contact with you.
Diego Rossi wrote:
it only "allows the wearer to use the magic of the dimension door spell".
So, yeah, only the wearer gets to use the magic, but "the magic" itself specifies the power to bring passengers.

I would argue that the magic of dimension door is the transporting of a creature from one location to another. And the casting of the dimension door allows you to target one (or more) creatures with the magic of said spell. The magic embued in the cape already has pre-selected targets (the wearer), just like a potion, ring of invis, etc.

The prayer beads Diego Rossi pointed out specifically grant the wearer the ability to cast various spells. The cloak has no such wording.

On a side note: If you are casting DD with use of the cloak, you are also subject to being counterspelled.


Agénor wrote:

Side note, I have trouble understanding this last proposition of the spell:

Dimension Door wrote:
and at least one of those creatures must be in contact with you.

It makes me believe that either

Passenger-Caster-Passenger fails
or
Caster Passenger-Passenger succeeds.

Additional passengers to DD must either be

1) Touching the caster directly
or
2) Touching someone who is touching the caster (or touching someone who is touching someone who is touching the caster, etc).

I think all they are really trying to convey is that there must be a chain of creatures (not necessarily sequentially) back to the caster. e.g, 4 people in a box around in the caster is fine. A line of people is fine. A t shape of people is fine. All that matters is that each individual creature must be able to trace a line of contact back to the caster.


bbangerter wrote:
Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
Nowhere it says that it cast the spell.

Yeah, it does.

Cape of the Montebank wrote:
this bright red and gold cape allows the wearer to use the magic of the dimension door spell.

So, you are arguing that you "use the magic of the dimension door spell," but you aren't casting dimension door? And that somehow means you don't get to use the magic of dimension door?

Lanathar wrote:
Can I use the Cape to take allies with me per the Dimension Door spell

Well, the cape lets you "use the magic of the dimension door spell." Does the magic of the Dimension Door Spell let you take a passenger with you? Well,

Dimension Door wrote:
You may also bring one additional willing Medium or smaller creature (carrying gear or objects up to its maximum load) or its equivalent per three caster levels. A Large creature counts as two Medium creatures, a Huge creature counts as two Large creatures, and so forth. All creatures to be transported must be in contact with one another, and at least one of those creatures must be in contact with you.
Diego Rossi wrote:
it only "allows the wearer to use the magic of the dimension door spell".
So, yeah, only the wearer gets to use the magic, but "the magic" itself specifies the power to bring passengers.

I would argue that the magic of dimension door is the transporting of a creature from one location to another. And the casting of the dimension door allows you to target one (or more) creatures with the magic of said spell. The magic embued in the cape already has pre-selected targets (the wearer), just like a potion, ring of invis, etc.

The prayer beads Diego Rossi pointed out specifically grant the wearer the ability to cast various spells. The cloak has no such wording.

On a side note: If you are casting DD with use of the cloak, you are also subject to being counterspelled.

So your argument is that other magic items phrase things in a particular way, and the phrasing of the Cape' suggests that they really mean only the wearer. Also, the price of the Cape also suggests a wearer-only limitation?

My argument is that the Cape' says you get to use "the magic of dimension door," and that magic is linked on d20pfsrd the spell description, and that says specifically that you get to take 1 or more passengers.

Liberty's Edge

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Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Scott Wilhelm wrote:

So your argument is that other magic items phrase things in a particular way, and the phrasing of the Cape' suggests that they really mean only the wearer. Also, the price of the Cape also suggests a wearer-only limitation?

My argument is that the Cape' says you get to use "the magic of dimension door," and that magic is linked on d20pfsrd the spell description, and that says specifically that you get to take 1 or more passengers.

Yes, that sum up the whole thread.

One side is sure that "allow you to use the magic of dimension door" mean that you are casting the spell, the other side is sure that it means that only the person using the cape get to move as if he were benefitting from dimension door.
We both are sure that the meaning is clear and will not budge from our position.


Diego Rossi wrote:
We both are sure that the meaning is clear and will not budge from our position.

Must be a day ending in 'y'. : D


Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
Nowhere it says that it cast the spell.
Yeah, it does.

No it doesn't.

Spell Completion wrote:
... All that’s left to do is perform the finishing parts of the spellcasting...
Spell Trigger wrote:
Spell trigger activation is similar to spell completion, but it’s even simpler.
Command Word wrote:
If the activation is on command or if no activation method is suggested either in the magic item description or by the nature of the item, assume that a command word is needed to activate it. Command word activation means that a character speaks the word and the item activates. No other special knowledge is needed.
Use Activated wrote:
This type of item simply has to be used in order to activate it.
Table: Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Values wrote:

Spell Effect .. Base Price .. Example

Command word .. Spell level x caster level x 1,800 gp .. Cape of the mountebank

The cape is command word, which means it is activated. Activation is not casting.

Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Cape of the Montebank wrote:
this bright red and gold cape allows the wearer to use the magic of the dimension door spell.
So, you are arguing that you "use the magic of the dimension door spell," but you aren't casting dimension door? And that somehow means you don't get to use the magic of dimension door?

The magic of the spell is the effect, not the casting. The effect of the spell is moving from here to there instantly.

Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Lanathar wrote:
Can I use the Cape to take allies with me per the Dimension Door spell

Well, the cape lets you "use the magic of the dimension door spell." Does the magic of the Dimension Door Spell let you take a passenger with you? Well,

Dimension Door wrote:
...
Diego Rossi wrote:
it only "allows the wearer to use the magic of the dimension door spell".
So, yeah, only the wearer gets to use the magic, but "the magic" itself specifies the power to bring passengers.

Not quite. The targeting of the spell allows you to target multiple creatures. The effect is the same for all targeted creatures.

The cape only targets the wearer, so only the wearer gets the benefit.

/cevah


*Sigh*

Just when I was content to agree to disagree and drop the argument...

Cevah wrote:
The magic of the spell is the effect, not the casting. The effect of the spell is moving from here to there instantly.

Not according to the description of the spell. According to the description of the spell, the effect of the spell also allows you to take passengers.

Cevah wrote:
The cape only targets the wearer, so only the wearer gets the benefit.

The wearer is the caster/The wearer is the target/The wearer is the user: These seem like academic distinctions.

The wearer is targeted (ok) with the ability to use the magic of dimension door, and the magic of dimension door allows you to instantly transfer yourself and one other willing size medium creature per 3 caster levels (or its equivalent). And since the CL listed for the item is 9, that means the wearer can transport 3 willing medium sized creatures.

Here it is:

Cape of the Mountebank wrote:
this bright red and gold cape allows the wearer to use the magic of the dimension door spell.

Behold the magic of the Dimension Door Spell!

Dimension Door wrote:
You instantly transfer yourself from your current location to any other spot within range.... You may also bring one additional willing Medium or smaller creature... or its equivalent per three caster levels.

That's what the rules say.


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Try looking at the whole spell:

Dimension Door wrote:

School conjuration (teleportation); Level arcanist 4, bard 4, magus 4, medium 3, mesmerist 4, occultist 4, psychic 4, skald 4, sorcerer 4, spiritualist 4, summoner 3, summoner (unchained) 4, witch 4, wizard 4

Casting
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V
Effect
Range long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Target you and touched objects or other touched willing creatures
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw none and Will negates (object); Spell Resistance no and yes (object)
Description
You instantly transfer yourself from your current location to any other spot within range. You always arrive at exactly the spot desired—whether by simply visualizing the area or by stating direction. After using this spell, you can't take any other actions until your next turn. You can bring along objects as long as their weight doesn't exceed your maximum load. You may also bring one additional willing Medium or smaller creature (carrying gear or objects up to its maximum load) or its equivalent per three caster levels. A Large creature counts as two Medium creatures, a Huge creature counts as two Large creatures, and so forth. All creatures to be transported must be in contact with one another, and at least one of those creatures must be in contact with you.

If you arrive in a place that is already occupied by a solid body, you and each creature traveling with you take 1d6 points of damage and are shunted to a random open space on a suitable surface within 100 feet of the intended location.

If there is no free space within 100 feet, you and each creature traveling with you take an additional 2d6 points of damage and are shunted to a free space within 1,000 feet. If there is no free space within 1,000 feet, you and each creature travelling with you take an additional 4d6 points of damage and the spell simply fails.

Note the target line is what allows additional people. That is part of the casting of the spell, which you are not doing. The cape is doing the casting and it is only choosing you.

/cevah

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