Giant Instinct and Titan Mauler


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WOW just wow - Hard-coding Clumsy into the Instinct Signature ability, this really s*+$s me to tears as it’s a fairly harsh restriction. I mean it’s an INSTINCT SIGNATURE ability not a feat you can decide to take or not. If you choose to not wield a Large weapon you don't even get the damage bonus.

If you are wielding a large weapon add (-1 AC, -1 Reflex save, -1 Ranged to hit, -1 to Acrobatics, Stealth, and Thievery + any other Dexterity-based checks and DCs). There will be instances where you can’t even wield a large weapon in a given space, or you can’t grow to a larger size or even be disarmed and have no weapon at all making your SIGNATURE instinct completely useless – where is the balance or fun in that?

Looking at the other instinct Signature abilities, none of them are linked to a negative let alone one as bad as Clumsy, they all say when you rage you get X additional damage and you gain some other secondary benefit. The closest damage related instinct I see is Dragon, it adds a base damage of +4 (only 2 point behind Giants +6) no matter what weapon you are using, and adds a second damage type (where it’s down side?). Then you look at Dragons special feat selections, each and every one of them adds befits without additional penalties (unlike Giant); Breath weapon once per rage, Fly for length of rage and Turning into an actual Dragon that even scales with your PC level for goodness sake.

Have I missed something about Titan Mauler, have Paizo mentioned a change to this some place?

After having a bit of a think as an aside here is a link to Home Brew alternative - Titan Mauler 2.0 - https://paizo.com/threads/rzs42ujw?Titan-Mauler-20#1


Just addressing the "where is the down side?" question:

Comparatively more problematic anathema.
When you do choose to have your rage damage be the type of your chosen sort of dragon you get traits added that other elements in the game can play off of (probably just your rage shutting off if you enter an antimagic field since you add the arcane trait to it, but other interactions could exist too)

and despite it seeming like a small thing, that extra 2 points of damage is actually kind of a big deal. Though yes, there may have been some potential under-cutting of the giant instinct feats since they seem to really only give increased reach which is useful but not really all that thrilling


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-Dragon's extra damage doesn't work on things immune to that element and gets double dinged by anything that resists both that element and physical.

-Spirit has the same thing, but there's an entire type of enemy that is immune to the extra damage (constructs)

-Aninal can't use weapons at all when raging, specifically ranged weapons.

-Giant gets the highest damage in the game which nothing is immune to, only gets resisted once, and can still use a bow.

I think the number of times I've found myself in too cramped conditions to wield a large weapon (pretty much just being swallowed whole in practice) is a lot fewer than the number of elementals orconstructs I've fought.


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In exchange for the most bonus damage and (later) reach, you take a -1 penalty to AC and Reflex. Barbarians aren't known for their stealth and acrobatics, and it's true this penalizes ranged attacks but that simply means giant instinct barbarians are not likely to be a good ranged build, which is fine. So you push the Barbarian envelope even further, with bigger bonus damage and a bigger defense penalty. It's fine for this to be the shtick of one instinct.

There are no instances where you could wield a medium weapon in a space and cannot wield a large weapon in that same space, at least not in the rules. I suppose if you had a GM who wanted to make stuff up like that it could be a restriction. Changing to large or huge size, though an iconic ability of the instinct, is not required for the bonus damage at all, so small spaces where you can't enlarge might be less fun since your feats are ineffective but you'll still be more than capable of fighting in those cases.

Clumsy, like any other penalty, does not normally stack. So the abilities where you get bigger and get clumsy 1 do not cause you to get clumsy 2 when wielding your special weapon, it stays at clumsy 1. This is just to stay in line with the enlarge spell which also gives clumsy 1 when you get bigger.

Relative to base dragon instinct, base giant instinct gives +2 damage in exchange for - 1 AC and Reflex. Relative to non-dragon instincts it gives a lot more bonus damage. If anything I think dragon instinct should maybe do less damage, since it's above all the other instincts without a penalty and does seem to be the most versatile instinct. But dragon being too strong does not make giant weak, it is well balanced against the non-dragon instincts.

I could see an argument that maybe more feats should be added to give more "fun" abilities to the giant instinct (though turning huge is very fun in practice), but IMO numbers wise it's fine as-is and doesn't need addressing at all.


The giant instinct is more or less the glass-cannon option for the barbarian: its abilities have a negative impact on defenses but the damage bonus is insane, and assuming the player has several weapons, as most martial characters should, said damage is hard to counter. It's also great for battlefield control with the extra reach and the possibility to wrestle with even the biggest creatures with Giant's/Titan's Stature.


Captain Morgan wrote:

-Dragon's extra damage doesn't work on things immune to that element and gets double dinged by anything that resists both that element and physical.

-Spirit has the same thing, but there's an entire type of enemy that is immune to the extra damage (constructs)

-Aninal can't use weapons at all when raging, specifically ranged weapons.

-Giant gets the highest damage in the game which nothing is immune to, only gets resisted once, and can still use a bow.

I think the number of times I've found myself in too cramped conditions to wield a large weapon (pretty much just being swallowed whole in practice) is a lot fewer than the number of elementals orconstructs I've fought.

Spirit is a mixed bag. Some enemies are immune to it but the type is so good with some enemies, and being able to do two types is just soo fun.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

There's nothing wrong with Giant Instinct and Titan Mauler no matter how many times people complain and post homebrew trying to "fix" it.

Sovereign Court

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Vlorax wrote:
There's nothing wrong with Giant Instinct and Titan Mauler no matter how many times people complain and post homebrew trying to "fix" it.

Actually, there is. There are no "Giant-sized weapons" in the core book. There are no longer even "Small and Medium sized weapons" anymore. So the GM can either follow that same rule and say it does no additional damage for the penalty, or he can try to to reverse-engineer a weapon from the bestiary, but that usually is just made-up stats based on the giant's level, not a solid attempt to create weapon damage by size..


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Samurai wrote:
Vlorax wrote:
There's nothing wrong with Giant Instinct and Titan Mauler no matter how many times people complain and post homebrew trying to "fix" it.
Actually, there is. There are no "Giant-sized weapons" in the core book. There are no longer even "Small and Medium sized weapons" anymore. So the GM can either follow that same rule and say it does no additional damage for the penalty, or he can try to to reverse-engineer a weapon from the bestiary, but that usually is just made-up stats based on the giant's level, not a solid attempt to create weapon damage by size..

Not sure where you're coming up with "Giant Sized Weapons" since that's not a feature of the Instinct. The instinct tells you exactly what it does and what it gives, it's not hard to understand.

CRB wrote:
You can use a weapon built for a Large creature if you are Small or Medium (both normally and when raging). If you’re not Small or Medium, you can use a weapon built for a creature one size larger than you. You gain access to one weapon one size larger than you, of any weapon type otherwise available at character creation. It has the normal Price and Bulk for a weapon of its size (page 295). When wielding such a weapon in combat, increase your additional damage from Rage from 2 to 6, but you have the clumsy 1 condition (page 618) because of the weapon’s unwieldy size. You can’t remove this clumsy condition or ignore its penalties by any means while wielding the weapon.

It's literally "You have a Large Battle Axe"... you don't have to go into the bestiary for anything.

The only thing you have to "reverse engineer" as a GM is looking at the "Items and Sizes" page in the CRB and adjust the price and bulk.


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Samurai wrote:
Vlorax wrote:
There's nothing wrong with Giant Instinct and Titan Mauler no matter how many times people complain and post homebrew trying to "fix" it.
Actually, there is. There are no "Giant-sized weapons" in the core book. There are no longer even "Small and Medium sized weapons" anymore. So the GM can either follow that same rule and say it does no additional damage for the penalty, or he can try to to reverse-engineer a weapon from the bestiary, but that usually is just made-up stats based on the giant's level, not a solid attempt to create weapon damage by size..

It's already in the rules:

"In most cases, Small or Medium creatures can wield a Large weapon, though it’s unwieldy, giving them the clumsy 1 condition, and the larger size is canceled by the difficulty of swinging the weapon, so it grants no special benefit."

According to bestiary entries, large creatures use the same damage dice as medium ones (see the gnoll hunter as an example).

There is also a bulk conversion table for equipment of larger size, and it globally works just like in 1E: every extra size category doubles the base price and weight for everything of 1 bulk or higher and converts light bulk into 1 bulk, with small and medium sizes being treated as identical when it comes to equipment.

Take a medium weapopn, double its base price, double its bulk or increase it to 1 bulk if it's originally of light bulk and you get the giant-sized version. It's globally pretty worthless for a regular adventurer who isn't a giant instinct barbarian.


And it should be noted you retain the option to use a normally sized weapon to avoid clumsy (but ony at base rage damage). If I'm remebering it right, you get no clumsy while using a bow (or, more likely) javelins, though you could build for oversized throwing weapons and take Raging Hurler with returning rune...


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Giant Instinct is a really thematically cool idea implemented in an asinine way. Forget Clumsy, the real issue is all your abilities come from wielding a special large size weapon. You only get one of these, so if you lose it, you might be boned.

There's no other class out there whose abilities are linked to one specific weapon. It's extremely poorly conceived and designed.

What they should've done is tied your abilities to being bigger and stronger than anyone else. You know, like a giant. Instead of wielding some stupid special weapon.

Liberty's Edge

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HeHateMe wrote:

Giant Instinct is a really thematically cool idea implemented in an asinine way. Forget Clumsy, the real issue is all your abilities come from wielding a special large size weapon. You only get one of these, so if you lose it, you might be boned.

There's no other class out there whose abilities are linked to one specific weapon. It's extremely poorly conceived and designed.

What they should've done is tied your abilities to being bigger and stronger than anyone else. You know, like a giant. Instead of wielding some stupid special weapon.

This is heavily themed in a way to match the PF Iconic Amiri, and she in no way has ever been represented as being bigger or even espescially stronger than any other potential PC.

While I agree that it certainly isn't doing what lots of folks THINK it should so, you cannot reasonably say it's not working as intended. That said, the Instinct is already the most mechanically powerful "Class-path" or whatever you call it in the entire game so far....

IMO this just sounds like more whinning that it's not even more overpowered.


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HeHateMe wrote:
You only get one of these, so if you lose it, you might be boned.

I mean, unless you go buy another.


So I do feel giant barbarians damage increase should have scaled better than the dragons, at first level a +2 to damage vs - 1 to AC and Reflex is a just about even trade at level 20 it's an awful trade.

I think even a extra +2 at each each specialisation level would have done it, so +6, then +12, then +22 would have been better.

Or maybe just adding another damage type to barbarian resistance or more temporary hit points from rage so you can play out the easy to hit but hard to take down concept of the giant barbarian better.


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Themetricsystem wrote:
HeHateMe wrote:

Giant Instinct is a really thematically cool idea implemented in an asinine way. Forget Clumsy, the real issue is all your abilities come from wielding a special large size weapon. You only get one of these, so if you lose it, you might be boned.

There's no other class out there whose abilities are linked to one specific weapon. It's extremely poorly conceived and designed.

What they should've done is tied your abilities to being bigger and stronger than anyone else. You know, like a giant. Instead of wielding some stupid special weapon.

This is heavily themed in a way to match the PF Iconic Amiri, and she in no way has ever been represented as being bigger or even espescially stronger than any other potential PC.

While I agree that it certainly isn't doing what lots of folks THINK it should so, you cannot reasonably say it's not working as intended. That said, the Instinct is already the most mechanically powerful "Class-path" or whatever you call it in the entire game so far....

IMO this just sounds like more whinning that it's not even more overpowered.

And you couldn't be more wrong. I didn't say they should lose the clumsy drawback, what I said was their abilities should come from them, not from some silly special weapon.

Also, Dragon is more powerful than Giant any day. The damage is very close, they don't lose their abilities if they're disarmed, and they don't take additional penalties to ranged attacks, reflex saves and AC.


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Squiggit wrote:
HeHateMe wrote:
You only get one of these, so if you lose it, you might be boned.
I mean, unless you go buy another.

If you happen to be in town when you lose it, sure. If you're in a dungeon or out in the wilderness, you're boned.


The giant instinct barbarian is not restricted to having one large weapon, they are permitted to start play with one.

That's a very significant difference.

During play, any character regardless of class or particular build choices can end up with any number of larger than normal weapons... all they have to do is deal with the things that make and wield them.


HeHateMe wrote:

Giant Instinct is a really thematically cool idea implemented in an asinine way. Forget Clumsy, the real issue is all your abilities come from wielding a special large size weapon. You only get one of these, so if you lose it, you might be boned.

There's no other class out there whose abilities are linked to one specific weapon. It's extremely poorly conceived and designed.

What they should've done is tied your abilities to being bigger and stronger than anyone else. You know, like a giant. Instead of wielding some stupid special weapon.

You can get other large weapons, or make them yourself in downtime.


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BellyBeard wrote:
HeHateMe wrote:

Giant Instinct is a really thematically cool idea implemented in an asinine way. Forget Clumsy, the real issue is all your abilities come from wielding a special large size weapon. You only get one of these, so if you lose it, you might be boned.

There's no other class out there whose abilities are linked to one specific weapon. It's extremely poorly conceived and designed.

What they should've done is tied your abilities to being bigger and stronger than anyone else. You know, like a giant. Instead of wielding some stupid special weapon.

You can get other large weapons, or make them yourself in downtime.

I understand that. However, that doesn't fix the core problem that without one of these uncommon weapons, you have no class abilities.


HeHateMe wrote:
BellyBeard wrote:
HeHateMe wrote:

Giant Instinct is a really thematically cool idea implemented in an asinine way. Forget Clumsy, the real issue is all your abilities come from wielding a special large size weapon. You only get one of these, so if you lose it, you might be boned.

There's no other class out there whose abilities are linked to one specific weapon. It's extremely poorly conceived and designed.

What they should've done is tied your abilities to being bigger and stronger than anyone else. You know, like a giant. Instead of wielding some stupid special weapon.

You can get other large weapons, or make them yourself in downtime.
I understand that. However, that doesn't fix the core problem that without one of these uncommon weapons, you have no class abilities.

I can see your point, if you are locked without a way to craft and only 'regular' shops it can be annoying. But it's not that bad for such a damage bonus.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
HeHateMe wrote:
BellyBeard wrote:
HeHateMe wrote:

Giant Instinct is a really thematically cool idea implemented in an asinine way. Forget Clumsy, the real issue is all your abilities come from wielding a special large size weapon. You only get one of these, so if you lose it, you might be boned.

There's no other class out there whose abilities are linked to one specific weapon. It's extremely poorly conceived and designed.

What they should've done is tied your abilities to being bigger and stronger than anyone else. You know, like a giant. Instead of wielding some stupid special weapon.

You can get other large weapons, or make them yourself in downtime.
I understand that. However, that doesn't fix the core problem that without one of these uncommon weapons, you have no class abilities.

That's not true though, you would just lose the extra damage you'd have all your other Barbarian abilities with a non-Large wep.


oholoko wrote:
HeHateMe wrote:
BellyBeard wrote:
HeHateMe wrote:

Giant Instinct is a really thematically cool idea implemented in an asinine way. Forget Clumsy, the real issue is all your abilities come from wielding a special large size weapon. You only get one of these, so if you lose it, you might be boned.

There's no other class out there whose abilities are linked to one specific weapon. It's extremely poorly conceived and designed.

What they should've done is tied your abilities to being bigger and stronger than anyone else. You know, like a giant. Instead of wielding some stupid special weapon.

You can get other large weapons, or make them yourself in downtime.
I understand that. However, that doesn't fix the core problem that without one of these uncommon weapons, you have no class abilities.
I can see your point, if you are locked without a way to craft and only 'regular' shops it can be annoying. But it's not that bad for such a damage bonus.

I guess I have not lost my weapons very often, even less often lose my main magic weapon at higher levels. But everyone's game is different (usually do AP and pre-gen's). So in my experience, losing weapons is very rare at best. Personally if it happening so much that it affect's your character as more than a temp inconvenience, that's on the GM (because ultimately he has control, and doing that often enough to cause a problem to someone is going out of your way to hinder a specific character). But again, each person's playstyle is different. But ask your self how often your character has lost their main magic weapon thru-out a campaign and for how long until they could replace it (couple days? That's not very long in most campaigns).

You partially lose a single class ability. You can still rage for the base damage with a regular weapon (+2). While definately not optimal, still functional. The giant sized feats still work normal (Giant Stature and Titan Stature) as they have no weapon size restrictions (you simply lose out on the base bonus damage beyond +2 from the original rage ability), and outside RAW, make a case that you get the +2 bonus damage (since your not attempting to stack size bonuses like the shenanigans of PF1) like regular enlarge. Not peak performance, but again, not crippling. Especially for short term day or two. There is also improvised weapons (again sub-optimal, but large tree branch as a large staff for example). Piece of dungeon furniture, bones of a large/Huge critter as club... ect - If you really want that bonus damage).

All the above, and no one complains about how often the wizard loses their spellbook (and that is far more devastating) as a counter reference to losing class ability (once you use up your spells... and far harder to replace and regain all those spells)

Stating "you have no class abilities" without the one weapon is grossly overstating it. Your still have ALL your other class abilities(only Rage ability affected, and at reduced functionality), and all your class feats function fully regardless of the weapon size...

And the argument about "clumsy" is saying that the difference between a 10 and a 12 stat (or any 2 point change, same bonus difference of -1 to overall chack) will make or break a character feels a little silly and seems to smack of munchkin-ism to me, especially when you can use a ranged weapon, sneak, so long as you are not wielding it at same time (1 action is wasted total per combat length to draw it IF you go that route to dodge a -1 check). You get a huge bonus to damage that scales with level (no other instinct does - without additional feats) as a trade off (that doubles on a crit).


Ah I misunderstood the rules, I thought you couldn't rage at all without a large weapon. It's still bad to be so dependent on an uncommon piece of equipment, but not as bad as I initially thought.

Sovereign Court

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FlashRebel wrote:
Samurai wrote:
Vlorax wrote:
There's nothing wrong with Giant Instinct and Titan Mauler no matter how many times people complain and post homebrew trying to "fix" it.
Actually, there is. There are no "Giant-sized weapons" in the core book. There are no longer even "Small and Medium sized weapons" anymore. So the GM can either follow that same rule and say it does no additional damage for the penalty, or he can try to to reverse-engineer a weapon from the bestiary, but that usually is just made-up stats based on the giant's level, not a solid attempt to create weapon damage by size..

It's already in the rules:

"In most cases, Small or Medium creatures can wield a Large weapon, though it’s unwieldy, giving them the clumsy 1 condition, and the larger size is canceled by the difficulty of swinging the weapon, so it grants no special benefit."

According to bestiary entries, large creatures use the same damage dice as medium ones (see the gnoll hunter as an example).

There is also a bulk conversion table for equipment of larger size, and it globally works just like in 1E: every extra size category doubles the base price and weight for everything of 1 bulk or higher and converts light bulk into 1 bulk, with small and medium sizes being treated as identical when it comes to equipment.

Take a medium weapopn, double its base price, double its bulk or increase it to 1 bulk if it's originally of light bulk and you get the giant-sized version. It's globally pretty worthless for a regular adventurer who isn't a giant instinct barbarian.

Where (what page) does it say that a Large-sized weapon gets double the number of weapon dice? I see doubled price and bulk, but not damage.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Samurai wrote:
FlashRebel wrote:
Samurai wrote:
Vlorax wrote:
There's nothing wrong with Giant Instinct and Titan Mauler no matter how many times people complain and post homebrew trying to "fix" it.
Actually, there is. There are no "Giant-sized weapons" in the core book. There are no longer even "Small and Medium sized weapons" anymore. So the GM can either follow that same rule and say it does no additional damage for the penalty, or he can try to to reverse-engineer a weapon from the bestiary, but that usually is just made-up stats based on the giant's level, not a solid attempt to create weapon damage by size..

It's already in the rules:

"In most cases, Small or Medium creatures can wield a Large weapon, though it’s unwieldy, giving them the clumsy 1 condition, and the larger size is canceled by the difficulty of swinging the weapon, so it grants no special benefit."

According to bestiary entries, large creatures use the same damage dice as medium ones (see the gnoll hunter as an example).

There is also a bulk conversion table for equipment of larger size, and it globally works just like in 1E: every extra size category doubles the base price and weight for everything of 1 bulk or higher and converts light bulk into 1 bulk, with small and medium sizes being treated as identical when it comes to equipment.

Take a medium weapopn, double its base price, double its bulk or increase it to 1 bulk if it's originally of light bulk and you get the giant-sized version. It's globally pretty worthless for a regular adventurer who isn't a giant instinct barbarian.

Where (what page) does it say that a Large-sized weapon gets double the number of weapon dice? I see doubled price and bulk, but not damage.

Nothing says they do because they don't, Large weapons don't increase damage dice, they just give bonus rage damage for Giant Instinct Barbs.


Samurai wrote:
FlashRebel wrote:
Samurai wrote:
Vlorax wrote:
There's nothing wrong with Giant Instinct and Titan Mauler no matter how many times people complain and post homebrew trying to "fix" it.
Actually, there is. There are no "Giant-sized weapons" in the core book. There are no longer even "Small and Medium sized weapons" anymore. So the GM can either follow that same rule and say it does no additional damage for the penalty, or he can try to to reverse-engineer a weapon from the bestiary, but that usually is just made-up stats based on the giant's level, not a solid attempt to create weapon damage by size..

It's already in the rules:

"In most cases, Small or Medium creatures can wield a Large weapon, though it’s unwieldy, giving them the clumsy 1 condition, and the larger size is canceled by the difficulty of swinging the weapon, so it grants no special benefit."

According to bestiary entries, large creatures use the same damage dice as medium ones (see the gnoll hunter as an example).

There is also a bulk conversion table for equipment of larger size, and it globally works just like in 1E: every extra size category doubles the base price and weight for everything of 1 bulk or higher and converts light bulk into 1 bulk, with small and medium sizes being treated as identical when it comes to equipment.

Take a medium weapopn, double its base price, double its bulk or increase it to 1 bulk if it's originally of light bulk and you get the giant-sized version. It's globally pretty worthless for a regular adventurer who isn't a giant instinct barbarian.

Where (what page) does it say that a Large-sized weapon gets double the number of weapon dice? I see doubled price and bulk, but not damage.

Where did I say they dealt double damage?

Sovereign Court

FlashRebel wrote:
Where did I say they dealt double damage?

Sorry, guess I misread your post.

I still see absolutely no reason to have to create and use giant-sized weapons just to get the class benefits. They should instead be able to use normal sized melee weapons that are unwieldy and normally require 2 hands in just 1 hand in exchange for the clumsy 1 trait. Amiri's weapon is a human-sized Greatsword that she can wield 1-handed. If it were made for a giant, the handle would be much thicker


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I'd also point out that any martial losing their primary weapon is going to be significantly crippled at high levels, because a lot of your damage comes from the striking runes. Wealth by level is such that having two maxed weapons is prohibitively expensive as well, at least if you also want maxed armor. So losing your special weapon does hurt, but it hurts every non-unarmed martial nearly as much.


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Samurai wrote:
FlashRebel wrote:
Where did I say they dealt double damage?

Sorry, guess I misread your post.

I still see absolutely no reason to have to create and use giant-sized weapons just to get the class benefits. They should instead be able to use normal sized melee weapons that are unwieldy and normally require 2 hands in just 1 hand in exchange for the clumsy 1 trait. Amiri's weapon is a human-sized Greatsword that she can wield 1-handed. If it were made for a giant, the handle would be much thicker

What? You don't have to create new weapons. The only thing that changes for a large size weapon is the bulk, which doubles. It otherwise does the same damage as a normal sized weapon, and any character using it is also Clumsy 1. Giant Instinct Barbarians are the only characters who get a benefit in using oversized weapon, and it is just the bonus damage they explicitly say they get.

You're really overcomplicating this.

Also, Amiri's weapon is explicitly a large sized bastard swords. This is reflected on her character sheets and her origin story, which involves taking it off a dead frost giant. Google it.


Miy2Cents wrote:

WOW just wow - Hard-coding Clumsy into the Instinct Signature ability, this really s@~#s me to tears as it’s a fairly harsh restriction. I mean it’s an INSTINCT SIGNATURE ability not a feat you can decide to take or not. If you choose to not wield a Large weapon you don't even get the damage bonus.

If you are wielding a large weapon add (-1 AC, -1 Reflex save, -1 Ranged to hit, -1 to Acrobatics, Stealth, and Thievery + any other Dexterity-based checks and DCs). There will be instances where you can’t even wield a large weapon in a given space, or you can’t grow to a larger size or even be disarmed and have no weapon at all making your SIGNATURE instinct completely useless – where is the balance or fun in that?

Looking at the other instinct Signature abilities, none of them are linked to a negative let alone one as bad as Clumsy, they all say when you rage you get X additional damage and you gain some other secondary benefit. The closest damage related instinct I see is Dragon, it adds a base damage of +4 (only 2 point behind Giants +6) no matter what weapon you are using, and adds a second damage type (where it’s down side?). Then you look at Dragons special feat selections, each and every one of them adds befits without additional penalties (unlike Giant); Breath weapon once per rage, Fly for length of rage and Turning into an actual Dragon that even scales with your PC level for goodness sake.

Have I missed something about Titan Mauler, have Paizo mentioned a change to this some place?

After having a bit of a think as an aside here is a link to Home Brew alternative - Titan Mauler 2.0 - https://paizo.com/threads/rzs42ujw?Titan-Mauler-20#1

Large sized weapons take up no more space to wield than medium size weapons due, as there is no "space" required to wield weapons. The only thing that would impact you're ability to use weapons are things that explicitly say they do. Like being restrained (critical effect of grapple) or being swallowed whole).

Clumsy isn't even really that bad, as long as you weren't trying to build a character around those skills, which why would you if you going to choose giant instinct?

Giant Instinct is fine as it is.


You also only take Clumsy while you're wielding it, not when you carry it on your person. So you don't actually take a stealth penalty, for example, unless you're carrying it around outside of combat. (That said, if I wanted to build a giant Instinct sneaky barbarian I might just take Assurance.)


Giant instinct is currently the best deal due to the extra 5/10 feet reach ( and the highest damage ).

We could discuss about an extra nerf to titan stature ( for example, clumsy 2 ), which could balance a little bit more in terms of damage + range vs AC + skills.

But apart from that, It seems that the build is fine.


I created a Giant Instinct Barbarian and simply ignored all the Giant feats. It definitely changes up the initial paradigm of "normal guy" wielding a overly large weapon. That's certainly not something I was expecting to be the sole theme of this instinct. Hopefully in the future new feats are introduced to this class path.

Gladly there's a lot of other cool feats that Barbarian has access to, so I didn't felt pigeon-holed into the subclass feats.


Aw... I thought it was cool *sadly kicks small stone*


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Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

man a lot of people don't seem to realize that pathfinder has large sized weapon do no additional benefit and, except for a giant instinct barbarian, have double the bulk. it's written off as the weapon being too unwieldy to provide more benefit over a sword designed for your size.

Silver Crusade

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Or that you don't add Strength and a half to damage anymore.


Captain Morgan wrote:

-Dragon's extra damage doesn't work on things immune to that element and gets double dinged by anything that resists both that element and physical.

-Spirit has the same thing, but there's an entire type of enemy that is immune to the extra damage (constructs)

-Aninal can't use weapons at all when raging, specifically ranged weapons.

-Giant gets the highest damage in the game which nothing is immune to, only gets resisted once, and can still use a bow.

I think the number of times I've found myself in too cramped conditions to wield a large weapon (pretty much just being swallowed whole in practice) is a lot fewer than the number of elementals orconstructs I've fought.

You can turn around each statement and say -

-Dragon's extra damage - Can increase if the monster has a weakness to there damage type.
-Spirit - has the flexibility of Good or Evil damage type
-Animal - does not need a weapon and cant be disarmed
-Giant gets the highest damage BUT at the expense of a -1 to AC and other bad things - I wonder what % extra damage that generates from Crits as well as normal hits?

And again I say its there Signature (not a Feat).


BellyBeard wrote:

In exchange for the most bonus damage and (later) reach, you take a -1 penalty to AC and Reflex.

There are no instances where you could wield a medium weapon in a space and cannot wield a large weapon in that same space, at least not in the rules. I suppose if you had a GM who wanted to make stuff up like that it could be a restriction. Changing to large or huge size, though an iconic ability of the instinct, is not required for the bonus damage at all, so small spaces where you can't enlarge might be less fun since your feats are ineffective but you'll still be more than capable of fighting in those cases.

Reach in this systems is what? 1 maybe 2 AoO (way less than PF1) and although it reduces the need to move as much so incease your number of attacks in a combat - its still not what it was.

As to going Large - Ill give you that one, at least its not Hard-coded i into the Signature ability like using a Large Weapon. :)


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Vlorax wrote:
There's nothing wrong with Giant Instinct and Titan Mauler no matter how many times people complain and post homebrew trying to "fix" it.

I beg to differ, that's why I'm pointing out the issues. Hard-coding a Signature ability to a Negative. Show me were that's done elsewhere in the rules? Do Paladins have some negative to there special AoO?, Wizards get a penalty to casting spells?

So yes I say its broken, and if people are complaining maybe there is something there to look at - Just saying.


BellyBeard wrote:
I'd also point out that any martial losing their primary weapon is going to be significantly crippled at high levels, because a lot of your damage comes from the striking runes. Wealth by level is such that having two maxed weapons is prohibitively expensive as well, at least if you also want maxed armor. So losing your special weapon does hurt, but it hurts every non-unarmed martial nearly as much.

But consider a 1st level Fighter loses his weapon and he can still punch with his gauntlet for exactly the same damage at (Str)+1d4, a Dragon Barbarian is (Str)+4+1d4, but a Giant Barbarian gets what? (Str)+2+1d4 - And that will grow even further apart at higher levels.

Silver Crusade

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Miy2Cents wrote:
BellyBeard wrote:
I'd also point out that any martial losing their primary weapon is going to be significantly crippled at high levels, because a lot of your damage comes from the striking runes. Wealth by level is such that having two maxed weapons is prohibitively expensive as well, at least if you also want maxed armor. So losing your special weapon does hurt, but it hurts every non-unarmed martial nearly as much.
But consider a 1st level Fighter loses his weapon and he can still punch with his gauntlet for exactly the same damage at (Str)+1d4, a Dragon Barbarian is (Str)+4+1d4, but a Giant Barbarian gets what? (Str)+2+1d4 - And that will grow even further apart at higher levels.

Bellybeard explicitly said at high levels.

The Fighter and non-Giant Barbarian are just as screwed if they lose their main weapon since it had runes and special materials.


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The tradeoff itself is fine. You can't give one subclass flat out more damage than the others for nothing.

I do think it could use better scaling though, the relative value of that bonus damage diminishes compared to some of the other options as you progress. It's still a perfectly functional choice though.


Claxon wrote:

Large sized weapons take up no more space to wield than medium size weapons due, as there is no "space" required to wield weapons. The only thing that would impact you're ability to use weapons are things that explicitly say they do. Like being restrained (critical effect of grapple) or being swallowed whole).

Clumsy isn't...

Ill explain "Large sized weapons take up no more space to wield than medium size weapons" to my DM and see what she says.

Silver Crusade

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Miy2Cents wrote:
Claxon wrote:

Large sized weapons take up no more space to wield than medium size weapons due, as there is no "space" required to wield weapons. The only thing that would impact you're ability to use weapons are things that explicitly say they do. Like being restrained (critical effect of grapple) or being swallowed whole).

Clumsy isn't...

Ill explain "Large sized weapons take up no more space to wield than medium size weapons" to my DM and see what she says.

Tell her to read the rulebook if she has issues with it. Small, Medium, and Large weapons take the same space.

Is it a gamification and not realistic? Yes.


Bandw2 wrote:

man a lot of people don't seem to realize that pathfinder has large sized weapon do no additional benefit and, except for a giant instinct barbarian, have double the bulk. it's written off as the weapon being too unwieldy to provide more benefit over a sword designed for your size.

But should it be? - Large weapons have been part of RPG's for every - is it right to just wright them off into a side bar? Where is the Heroic fantasy?

Also I had forgotten about the Double bulk - so theirs and other Negative to add into the SIGNATURE ability.


Rysky wrote:
Miy2Cents wrote:
BellyBeard wrote:
I'd also point out that any martial losing their primary weapon is going to be significantly crippled at high levels, because a lot of your damage comes from the striking runes. Wealth by level is such that having two maxed weapons is prohibitively expensive as well, at least if you also want maxed armor. So losing your special weapon does hurt, but it hurts every non-unarmed martial nearly as much.
But consider a 1st level Fighter loses his weapon and he can still punch with his gauntlet for exactly the same damage at (Str)+1d4, a Dragon Barbarian is (Str)+4+1d4, but a Giant Barbarian gets what? (Str)+2+1d4 - And that will grow even further apart at higher levels.

Bellybeard explicitly said at high levels.

The Fighter and non-Giant Barbarian are just as screwed if they lose their main weapon since it had runes and special materials.

I only used L1 as and example as there are a lot of variable as you go up levels - I just thought to keep it simple.


Squiggit wrote:

The tradeoff itself is fine. You can't give one subclass flat out more damage than the others for nothing.

I do think it could use better scaling though, the relative value of that bonus damage diminishes compared to some of the other options as you progress. It's still a perfectly functional choice though.

But what I'm saying is that the Other subclass's get NO downside to there choice, so in fact they get different abilities "for nothing" when compared to Giant.

Silver Crusade

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Miy2Cents wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Miy2Cents wrote:
BellyBeard wrote:
I'd also point out that any martial losing their primary weapon is going to be significantly crippled at high levels, because a lot of your damage comes from the striking runes. Wealth by level is such that having two maxed weapons is prohibitively expensive as well, at least if you also want maxed armor. So losing your special weapon does hurt, but it hurts every non-unarmed martial nearly as much.
But consider a 1st level Fighter loses his weapon and he can still punch with his gauntlet for exactly the same damage at (Str)+1d4, a Dragon Barbarian is (Str)+4+1d4, but a Giant Barbarian gets what? (Str)+2+1d4 - And that will grow even further apart at higher levels.

Bellybeard explicitly said at high levels.

The Fighter and non-Giant Barbarian are just as screwed if they lose their main weapon since it had runes and special materials.

I only used L1 as and example as there are a lot of variable as you go up levels - I just thought to keep it simple.

Level 1 is kinda irrelevant since you go between weapons freely without losing much damage on any character.


Miy2Cents wrote:


But what I'm saying is that the Other subclass's get NO downside to there choice, so in fact they get different abilities "for nothing" when compared to Giant.

Again though, that's kind of the point. Giant Instinct gets the biggest bonus, but it comes with a tradeoff associated with it.

If you want to get rid of the downside, you'd inevitably have to take away or significantly reduce the upside as well and that just leaves the instinct less interesting and more homogenous.

Honestly, if you don't want the giant flavor and to deal with the mechanics involve, maybe look at playing a Fury barb instead.

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