COM: New ability synergies


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It goes against the way people usually build these characters, but the fouling reposition feat works well with the Duck Under envoy improvisation, which lets you reposition at +8 as a reaction on a missed melee attack.

This requires total defense, but total defense is only a standard action (could have sworn it was a full action) This frees your move action for get 'em, brace yourselves, etc.


Genehacker's Cache, pg 93 allows you to have a permanent Polymorph spell on yourself. Combine this with the Polymorph Adept feat and you can use a standard action to infinitely switch between 4, 8, or 12 forms (depending on whether you have Polymorph 1, 2, or 3 in your cache).

Furthermore, you can switch from your own subtype to another as a method to hide power armor (or any armor) and appear to be walking around in clothes you put on afterwards. (Switching to humanoid or monstrous humanoid is the easiest way to accomplish this while still fitting into most of Starfinder society and being able to wield weapons).

You can also use the subtype switch method to smuggle weapons or other gear. It's absorbed and inaccessible in your changed form until you use Polymorph Adept to switch to a form that's your original subtype.

Oh, you also get the benefits of your polymorph form.


Starfinder Superscriber

I'm not sure if this will work or not, but it looks on a cursory reading like you could potentially get (at 11th+ level) an entropic strike vanguard that pairs with Shield solarian to get Str+Con+Solarian Weapon crystal damage to Entropic Strikes using the Solar Shield. I don't think you can get Cha also, with soulfire, because Solarian Weapon Crystals aren't (directly) Advanced Melee Weapons so I don't think that works. But I think you can get the extra damage from the solarian crystal, unless I'm missing something.

Entropic Strike wrote:
You can also deliver an entropic strike with any melee weapon, or any shield that allows you to make unarmed attacks (replacing the normal attack with your entropic strike). The attack’s damage is equal to the entropic strike damage of a vanguard of either your class level or a class level equal to the weapon’s item level, whichever is lower. When you use this option, your entropic strike is considered to be made of whatever material the weapon or shield is made of (such as for the purposes of bypassing DR or creature weaknesses). Additionally, you can apply any weapon special property, critical hit effect, or weapon fusion the melee weapon or shield has to your entropic strike as long as the effect can be applied to a one-handed advanced melee weapon that deals acid or bludgeoning damage, doesn’t use additional ammunition or charges, and doesn’t require information beyond that specified for your entropic strike to function. If the weapon special property, critical hit effect, or weapon fusion requires information provided for your weapon (such as the amount of a bleed critical hit effect), use the value for the weapon you are gaining the effect from.
Solar Shield wrote:
You can make unarmed attacks with your solar shield; these attacks are not archaic, and you threaten squares within your reach while it is formed. You can add solarian weapon crystals to your solar shield as if it were a solar weapon, in which case their benefits apply to unarmed attacks you make with the shield. The damage type of these attacks is the same damage type as the type granted by the solarian weapon crystal, and if the solarian weapon crystal does not specify a damage type, it deals bludgeoning damage.


I don't see how the weapon crystal damage adds to the entropic strike damage. Using the shield only applies material for DR/vulnerability, a weapon special property, critical hit effect, or weapon fusion. The damage boost from a weapon crystal is none of those.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

As strong as the solar shield is, I don't think it can be used in this way. I believe entropy strike would overwrite ALL of the damage from the shield, crystal included.


Starfinder Superscriber

Re-reading it. I think you're both right.

Quote:
The attack’s damage is equal to the entropic strike damage of a vanguard of either your class level or a class level equal to the weapon’s item level, whichever is lower.

That line would overwrite the line about adding the damage from the crystal.

It does though, look like you could combine Aesthetic Warrior with Solar Shield and Soulfire to get 1.5x Specialization and Charisma and Strength to damage on top of the weapon crystal. That may, all-together, beat out RoF (now that RoF is illegal in SFS).


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Yes, solar shield with a source of 1.5 times level is nearly as strong offensively as a solar weapon (stringer at some levels), and has no reliance on solarian levels past the first. This can also combine with Death Strike to turn an operative into an actually top tier damage dealer.


Starfinder Superscriber

I just did a test build for a combo Soldier 3/Shield Solarian 2 with max Charisma and a starting 13 in Strength (so you can get Power Armor prof at 5 and use that for Strength). At level 5 I come up with 25 average (min 21/max 29) damage, assuming a level 5 crystal and maxing Charisma and taking melee striker and photon mode. A power-larian (solar weapon + power armor prof) at the same level is looking at 21 average damage.

It looks to be pretty weak before that, but if you can GM-Baby your way through the lower levels, or are playing a game that starts at level 5 or higher, it might just work out.


Witchwarper's 2nd level spell slot infinite worlds damage per round option doesn't do a whole lot of damage, but... It provides a safe, reliable way for shimreen allies (or a shimreen witchwarper, I guess?) to use their amplify racial ability. With the base racial electrical resistance of 5/, they take 2 + 1d4 damage each round, doing no damage except on a roll of 4, and add the d4 to their next melee attack. Additional infinite worlds effects can help keep the target confined to this electrified area.


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Third Strongest Mole wrote:
Witchwarper's 2nd level spell slot infinite worlds damage per round option doesn't do a whole lot of damage, but... It provides a safe, reliable way for shimreen allies (or a shimreen witchwarper, I guess?) to use their amplify racial ability. With the base racial electrical resistance of 5/, they take 2 + 1d4 damage each round, doing no damage except on a roll of 4, and add the d4 to their next melee attack. Additional infinite worlds effects can help keep the target confined to this electrified area.

I think "takes energy damage" means it actually reduces SP or HP. I wouldn't allow resisted damage to work with amplify. Here's the closest rule on this I could find.

Energy Resistance, CRB 264 wrote:

If energy resistance completely negates the damage from an attack, it also negates most special effects that accompany the attack, such as an operative’s debilitating trick or poison

delivered via an injury. Energy resistance does not negate ability damage, ability drain, or negative levels dealt along with an energy attack, nor does it affect poisons or diseases delivered by contact, ingestion, or inhalation.


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Let's hear it for dumb new uses of the 20th level Mystic enlightenment ability to burn 20 free resolve points on connection powers within one minute.

A Melophile can burn all 20 right at once to let 20 allies apply a Subjective Reality spell effect to the same target as part of activating their Song of the Spheres/Rewrite the Spheres connection powers.

A Warmonger can burn 10 of them on 10 consecutive standard action Summon Creature spells. You can burn an extra 10 by using a move action (all allies within 30') or no action (one ally within 30') to constantly refresh (Greater) Bestow Tactics for the temporary HP equal to your Mystic level. This is pretty hilarious for a big game of whack-a-mole.


On Frightful Display: Does SF have any swift/immediate action spells that allow a save?


Mystic Reach epiphany combos to make Shadow Jump spell a lot more useful in conjunction with the Gloom Mote spell.

Use Mystic Reach to make Shadow Jump medium range, which Gloom Mote already is, and you can always jump to the guaranteed square of dim light produced by Gloom Mote, even in the brightest possible natural light conditions. If necessary you can move the mote 60’ as a move action to set up further jumps, that part is a bit awkward because Shadow Jump has both a short duration and a concentration requirement eating up your standard action. Still, it’s a big improvement over base Shadow Jump for Mystics, if still well short of Dimension Door in most circumstances.


The best part of Adaptive Casting hasn't been mentioned yet: They're spell-like abilities.

Page 262 of Core book wrote:
If a spell requires an expenditure of credits or Resolve Points as part of its casting, a creature that can cast the spell as a spell-like ability does not need to pay such costs

Free Raise Dead! Free Animate Dead!

Frankly I'm shocked Paizo still fails to realize what giving PCs their choice of spell as SLAs without a clause about casting time and material components being the same does.

As for stacking Spell Feint with demoralize, remember that Cruel weapon fusions are a thing. If an ally with such a weapon hits you can bring the enemy down to -5 on saves.


deuxhero wrote:


Frankly I'm shocked Paizo still fails to realize what giving PCs their choice of spell as SLAs without a clause about casting time and material components being the same does.

It doesn't do anything to change casting time.

CRB 262 wrote:
A spell-like ability has a casting time of a standard action unless noted otherwise in the ability or spell description.

All real spells that SLAs are based on have casting times in their spell descriptions so they keep those. It's only made up SLAs that don't act as a published spell that default to a standard action if nothing is said about casting time in their description.

The really annoying thing about SLAs is that their DCs don't benefit from Spell Focus feat, which is punishing mid to late game to Mystics using some connection powers, Mystics using some epiphanies, and Witchwarpers using Infinite Worlds.

It's also really weird for the (Sp) Fabricate Explosive technomancer hack, which runs off spell level and Int, not item level and dex like you'd expect when imitating a grenade. Shadow Grenade, of course, has to go be a Supernatural ability that inconsistently both treats it as a standard (weak) grenade DC save if it ordinarily has one, or a very strong class ability DC if the grenade doesn't have one. It's a mess.


I knew that, the casting time bit was in reference to how it kept showing up in PF.


deuxhero wrote:
I knew that, the casting time bit was in reference to how it kept showing up in PF.

Also, while it sounds nice to have raise dead for free, raise dead is much cheaper relative to wealth by character level than it was in PF.

Animate dead is a good use for the 'no material components bit', raise dead less so.


That's the great thing about Adapative Casting though: You get three spells to pick from.


deuxhero wrote:
That's the great thing about Adapative Casting though: You get three spells to pick from.

Sure, but raise dead is still way down at the bottom of the list, unless you plan on casting it... what? 20+ times from level 16 to the campaign's end? There are a variety of much better options for niche spells to put into adaptive casting.


It's not a very big list as far as I can tell. The level <6 spells with credit costs (searched spells for Credits on AoN and took out ones just referring to permanence) to cast are Raise Dead, Animate Dead, Awaken Computer (not on mythic list), Reanimate (even more narrow than raise dead), and Reincarnate (same). What's a better trio for it than Animate Dead, Raise Dead and Restoration? Any of the resolve point costing spells really worth casting every day while you need the points for other stuff?

The cool thing about free raise dead is you can use it on NPCs. That's something players don't consider (at least not for more minor NPCs) till it's free and it breaks plots all over the place. It also makes you really notable in a setting.


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Create Ammunition 1st level Technomancer spell plus Transfer Charge cantrip allows you to recharge your empty standard batteries and avoid the minute/level limitation of Create Ammunition.


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Mystic epiphany Farsight + full sense through (via Aeon Eye magitech augmentation or the Artificial Third Eye cybertech) allows you to be a global range visual spy who can penetrate inside guarded facilities via repeated castings.

Farsight epiphany, 9th level wrote:

D You gain a divination reservoir. Each day when you regain your mystic spells, your divination reservoir fills with a number of points equal to half your mystic level. Any points from the previous day are lost. You can cast clairaudience/clairvoyance

as a spell-like ability by spending 1 point from your divination reservoir, or arcane eye by spending 2 points from your divination reservoir. By spending 4 points from your arcane reservoir, you can combine these effects, allowing you to create an invisible magical sensor (as arcane eye) at any location you’re familiar with at a planetary range.
Arcane Eye spell wrote:

You create an invisible magical sensor that sends you visual information. The sensor appears at any point within line of sight, but it can then travel beyond your line of sight without hindrance.

An arcane eye travels at 30 feet per round (300 feet per minute) if viewing an area ahead as a humanoid would (primarily looking at the floor) or 10 feet per round (100 feet per minute) if examining the ceiling and walls as well as the floor ahead. The arcane eye sees exactly as you would see if you were there.

Step 1: Cast combined effect to a location you are familiar with near your target building/complex.

Step 2: Invisibly explore the compound to the limits of your ability to squeeze through 1" openings, using sense through to look through all walls and become familiar with what is on the other side of walls, doors, or other barriers you cannot bypass.

Step 3: Recast the combined effect, hopping it past the impassible barrier to a new area and exploring that.

Repeat steps 2-3 until you've seen everything.

If you want to defend against this you need to build all of your walls and doors out of 12" steel or 6" starmetal and put invisibility detectors and dispel magic capability (at a reasonably high level of redundancy or CL to assure success) at every door to prevent one slipping in.


That's a neat trick!

Comments:
Unless you have more than one caster in the party to do this, the hard limit of twice a day probably precludes as comprehensive of a spying as it seems like at first glance. Then again, at a minimum level of 16 to do this twice a day, that's 32 minutes of invisible super spying, which seems like enough time to take a glance through a very large area.

I can't speak for anyone else, but personally, I'd start getting annoyed if a caster wanted to spend days doing this several times.

Question:
Say, for example, you want to take a good look at every nook and cranny of a sprawling complex. At whatever point the spell ends, when you recast, would you consider the end-point of the previous spell to be a familiar location, so as to pick up where you left off?


Xenocrat wrote:
Create Ammunition 1st level Technomancer spell plus Transfer Charge cantrip allows you to recharge your empty standard batteries and avoid the minute/level limitation of Create Ammunition.

I was thinking about taking Technomantic Dabbler at lvl 5 for my mechanic, and I didn't know what my second cantrip should be (energy ray being the first). Even with the restrictions of the spell, Transfer Charge could be worth it. I was already liking Create Ammunition because it can be used universally. It was either Technomantic Dabbler or Climbing/Swimming Master for lvl 5. If it doesn't work, I'll just make use of a mnemonic whatever and redo.

However, what's the maximum amount of ammo you can create with Create Ammunition? Can I create two batteries/ 40 pieces of ammo?


A solo 20th level Biohacker who has applied a genetics inhibitor biohack can do 140 damage per shot against targets without fire resistance.

Requires:
1. Genetics field of study
2. Medication Mastery theorem (sedatives for avg 20 nonlethal damage)
3. Painful Injection theorem (+4 damage with injection)
4. Arms Expert theorem (or versatile specialization and longarms proficiency)
5. Needler Rifle, Supreme (16d6P, avg 56 damage)
6. Explosive dart rounds (half fire damage)
7. Flaming fusion (half fire damage; the weapon doesn't deal fire damage, the ammo does, so they combine)

First apply genetics inhibitor to give fire vulnerability. Optional: Spend a move action to set up a bipod. Optional: add -2 AC with spark of ingenuity if desired. Optional: first followup with an analgesic medinical before switching to sedatives to inflict flatfooted for 4 rounds.

Then full attack: 56 (rifle) + 4 (painful injection) + 20 (specialization) * 1.5 (vulnerability) = 120 fire damage + 20 nonlethal (sedative tier 4) = 140 average damage per hit against living creatures without fire resistance/immunity. (A disintegrate spell averages 147 on a regular hit and failed save.)

The good news for GMs is that everything CR 19+ except the frujai colony has fire immunity or a hefty fire resistance, and any fire resistance prevents the genetic inhibitor from granting vulnerability (unless you use spark of ingenuity to add a regular inhibitor that reduces a low fire resistance and your GM plays ball on order of operations). Players might prefer to do a thundering fusion and sonic vulnerability to get 80 * 1.25 +20 = 120 average damage a lot more reliably against the vast majority of opponents without sonic resistance.

The good news for biohacker players is that even without a genetic inhibitor or sedative you're doing 80 damage, compared to 74 for a stock character using the best non-injection projectile longarm, or 86 for the best projectile heavy weapon. If they're living and you can toss a sedative on, you're doing 100 per hit.

It's an interesting balancing point vs mechanics and technos boosting their own damage with resource constrained (batteries/capacity for mechanics, spells for technomancers) options that don't allow full attacks and aren't replenishable after a stamina rest.

A gunner's harness soldier (not even a sharpshooter) with a level 20 reaction cannon and Bullet Barrage gear boost is doing a somewhat modest 92 per hit, but fires three times at -4 and with Heavy Onslaught is ignoring the first 10 points of DR without having to waste actions on biohacks. That should pull well ahead in raw DPR, as will the solar flare solarian using solar sheathe, although they'll be pretty vulnerable to resistances/immunities.


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Solarion ranged weapon/armor destroyer!

1. Solar Flare solar manifestation
2. Improved Combat Maneuver (Sunder) feat - +4 to sunder
3. Agile Wavelengths solarian revelation - +2 to ranged maneuver while graviton attuned
4. Crushing Force solarian revelation - +2 to sunder, move action activation
3. Ulrikka Duster weapon fusion - halves hardness
4. Muon solarian weapon crystal - penetrating

So as a one round action (requires quickdraw feat if you don't already have your solar flare drawn) you can move action Crushing Force then standard action Agile Wavelengths to attempt a sunder 30' away with a +8 bonus, using your dex instead of strength against KAC+8. If you have a level appropriate muon crystal and accompanying fusion you should be be able to ignore almost all of the targeted items hardness, allowing you to destroy most stuff in 1-2 hits.

Of course you really want grapple for ranged maneuvers, and there's no replacement for the lost +2 from Crushing Force. You can get a +2 for disarms from Attractive Force revelation, but that's probably the least useful maneuver to do at range since you can't grab the weapon.


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You can't actually sunder armor, though.


A Skittermander with the Add Leverage feat can wield a combat knife with six hands and knock opponents back 30' with a successful bull rush.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Raxmei wrote:
A Skittermander with the Add Leverage feat can wield a combat knife with six hands and knock opponents back 30' with a successful bull rush.

They could. But they could also put Sox hands on a solar flare with Agile Wavelengths and do bull rushes and repositions with a minimum of 30 ft on a successful maneuver at range.


Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Pantshandshake wrote:
You can't actually sunder armor, though.

Then what is the purpose of the tensile armor upgrade?

CRB armor upgrades page 207
When calculating your armor’s hardness and Hit Points (see page 409), treat it as if its item level were 5 higher.


Other abilities can (or may in the future) allow you to damage it while worn, and it protects unattended armor if for some insane reason that ever matters.


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Nimor Starseeker wrote:
Pantshandshake wrote:
You can't actually sunder armor, though.

Then what is the purpose of the tensile armor upgrade?

CRB armor upgrades page 207
When calculating your armor’s hardness and Hit Points (see page 409), treat it as if its item level were 5 higher.

Ride-Or-Die Power Armor Jockey, for one.

You understand that your armor’s purpose is to defend you from harm at all costs. You can expend 1 Resolve Point when you would take Hit Point damage to cause your powered armor to take the same amount of damage instead. Only Hit Point damage is transferred to your armor; your Stamina Points are depleted as normal, and you take any other effects of whatever harmed you, such as a critical hit effect.

Granted, that's an 18th level power.

The point is, Sunder isn't the only way to damage items.


Starfinder Charter Superscriber

There has to be others because it’s a lv 1 armor upgrade.


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There don't have to be, the CRB just has to be a rushed kludge in many respects. Which it demonstrably is.


Starfinder Charter Superscriber

It wouldn’t be unreasonable that sunder works on armor too wouldn’t it? Pherhaps it was simply not stated clearly but the armor upgrade implies that it does?


Sunder
You deal damage to one object held in the target’s hand or accessible on its body. The object must be something that could be drawn easily by the target as a move action (see Draw or Sheathe a Weapon on page 247). The damage is reduced by an amount equal to the object’s hardness (see Smashing an Object page 409)

Armor isn't held in a hand, and while it would seem to be 'accessible on its body,' it doesn't seem like it is 'something that can be drawn easily as a move action.'


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

My suspicion is that sunder was rewritten to not target armor to avoid slow acting 1 hit kills by breaking environmental protections when fighting in vacuum.

If you look at the spell Entropy Grasp, you'll notice that it is written s9 that it doesn't affect armor in the same way that it can be used to sunder weapons, having an armor-specific effect, instead.

https://www.starjammersrd.com/magic-and-spells/spells/e/entropic-grasp/


Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Armors can get the broken condition. This surely implies that it takes damage.
CRB 273 If the item is armor, the bonuses it grants to AC are halved, rounding down. Broken armor doubles its armor check penalty to skill checks.
As for 1 hit destroy armor sunders, well, let’s see.

A lv 1 armor would have a hardness of 7 (5+2*lv1) and 18 hp (15+3*lv1). So you have to deal 16 points of sundering damage to break the armor in a single hit.
With the Tensile reinforcement the hardness would be 17 and hp would be 33.

A lv 5 armor would have a hardness of 15 and 30 hp. So 30 points of damage in a single sundering maneuver to break it.
With the tensile reinforcement the hardness would be 25 and hp be 45.

I don’t think that it is unreasonable with sundering working against these numbers. What do you think?


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

If we're looking at ease of sundering, we should also be assuming that things like Ulrikka Duster fusions, penetrating weapons and/or adamantine weapons may be in play.


Starfinder Charter Superscriber

It does seem to look ugly now. Would force fields counteract this you think?


Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Adamantium will only be useful against hardness less than 30 so level 13 items (5+2x13=31) are safe. That’s a long way from safe at lv 13!

With textile reinforcement it will be lv 8. Still, a little safer, but not much.

Obviously with the Ulrikka Duster fusion and penetration weapons I’m not sure anything is safe.

Force fields might play a role. Like, why wouldn’t they work against sundering attacks? Correct me if I’m wrong.

You can also say some enemies are not affected by this because they are aberrations or some or another monster that does not use armor. Some do and you need to get close to them to pull off the maneuver. You are in a sense sacrificing a damaging attack to give everyone better attacks afterwards if you can successfully do it in one attack. The benefit is of course easy attack rolls.

As a GM I might not allow the Ulrikka Duster. Apart from that this doesn’t have to be game breaking. It can be a valid choice.


I don't think anyone is saying armor can't take damage or be broken. We're just saying that armor isn't a valid target for Sunder.

As far as force fields, they pretty specifically say they protect you, and not your items.

So, you'd have to house rule that Sunder works on armor, and that force fields work on carried items, not just the character.

Also keep in mind, this isn't Pathfinder. If you break my full plate, Its fairly trivial to get a new set if I can't fix it or get it fixed.

If you break my 30K power armor, and I can't fix it or get it fixed for basically free, then you need to either:
Replace the armor for the character
Ensure the character gets enough extra credits/loot to repair the armor
Ensure the character gets enough extra credits/loot to replace the armor (if it cannot be repaired.)

Otherwise you've 100% broken the WBL for that character, possibly for the remainder of its life.


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Repairing broken armor is 10 UPB/item level, not so expensive as long as it's not destroyed, but needing a check of 15+1.5xlvl and an hour might be difficult in the wrong group.

Then you get to the real problem where trying to sunder an NPCs armor might have much less effect on it's AC than expected, because armor isn't actually part of it's AC.

Really, sundering armor is a pain in the butt, and hurts PCs far more than it hurts NPCs. I'd rather not see it happen in a game.


Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Pantshandshake wrote:

I don't think anyone is saying armor can't take damage or be broken. We're just saying that armor isn't a valid target for Sunder.

As far as force fields, they pretty specifically say they protect you, and not your items.

So, you'd have to house rule that Sunder works on armor, and that force fields work on carried items, not just the character.

Also keep in mind, this isn't Pathfinder. If you break my full plate, Its fairly trivial to get a new set if I can't fix it or get it fixed.

If you break my 30K power armor, and I can't fix it or get it fixed for basically free, then you need to either:
Replace the armor for the character
Ensure the character gets enough extra credits/loot to repair the armor
Ensure the character gets enough extra credits/loot to replace the armor (if it cannot be repaired.)

Otherwise you've 100% broken the WBL for that character, possibly for the remainder of its life.

In regards to Force Fields the rules book (to my surprise and probably yours too) actually says otherwise.

CRB 206, Force Fields: Once active, the device generates an invisible force field around you, including all your worn and carried items.

Fixing stuff, CRB 142, engineering allows you to fix items at a cost of 10 UPBs per item level if it’s broken, destroyed items are lost. The cost is negligible unless you have to replace a destroyed item. That’s fair isn’t it?

As for your first statement, I am having a hard time making sense of it, because why else would armor have hardness and hp and an upgrade option to increase its hardness and hp, if you cannot sunder it? There are items that improve your sundering abilities.

By looking at the CRB page 246 rules on Sunder don’t include armor, and that is kind of weird, because of the above statement. Anyway, rules ref below:
You deal damage to one object held in the target’s hand or accessible on its body. The object must be something that could be drawn easily by the target as a move action (see Draw or Sheathe a Weapon on page 247). The damage is reduced by an amount equal to the object’s hardness (see Smashing an Object page 409).

This description is confusing, since armor is not included, and I claim that logically you would be able to sunder armor too, since things are set up for it, but.. maybe I’m wrong, but then what the heck is the Tensile armor upgrade for?


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Besides power armor jockey?

Some odd situation where you've exited your power armor when it's out of juice. It's now an unattended object that can be broken.


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Regarding force fields: You can’t just take the first sentence. Read the whole thing. Like this part: While a force field is active, you gain a number of temporary Hit Points depending on the force field’s power. All damage dealt to you is subtracted from the force field’s temporary Hit Points first.

You, the character, gain temporary hit points (not your items.) When damage is done to you, the character, it comes off of these first.

Regarding repairing items: The cost for fixing a damaged item is fair. The opportunity to do so may or may not arise, depending on party makeup, the adventure itself, downtime, etc. And again, if a PC’s very expensive armor is destroyed, then the GM needs to replace it via an item or equivalent cash, so why did we go through the trouble of making all these house rules?

Regarding Sunder, armor hp, and damage in general: The fact that there is a Sunder maneuver in the game, and the fact that armor has HP and hardness, are, at present, two entirely different sets of rules that do not interact. Consistently pointing out that Sunder is a thing and armor HP/hardness is a thing, and using that as ‘proof’ that you can sunder armor is kind of like telling me that ice cream is purple, and that’s why it has no bones. It doesn’t make any sense.

Additionally, while I don’t necessarily disagree with you that logically Sunder would work on armor, by the rules, it does not. So, I appreciate that you WANT it to work, but it doesn’t, and repeating ‘but it should!’ isn’t doing anything. If you want it to work in your game, its house rules, and I hope you can create a set of house rules that are fair and not broken.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Just because the sunder maneuver doesn't target armor without a bit if houseruling doesn't mean that traps or environmental hazards can't damage armor, along with the wearer. There are a few cases of that in Paizo's published adventures.

Also, just because allowing sunder to target armor requires a house rule doesn't mean you can't/shouldn't use that houserule at your table, if your group would enjoy it. I would just warn that the biggest risk associated with that is that "Death from spacesuit breach" may become more common tHan you wanted. Obviously, this risk goes way down if your adventures are in environments with breathable atmospheres.


Starfinder Charter Superscriber
HammerJack wrote:

Just because the sunder maneuver doesn't target armor without a bit if houseruling doesn't mean that traps or environmental hazards can't damage armor, along with the wearer. There are a few cases of that in Paizo's published adventures.

Also, just because allowing sunder to target armor requires a house rule doesn't mean you can't/shouldn't use that houserule at your table, if your group would enjoy it. I would just warn that the biggest risk associated with that is that "Death from spacesuit breach" may become more common tHan you wanted. Obviously, this risk goes way down if your adventures are in environments with breathable atmospheres.

Thanks for this feedback : ) I always enjoy people at these forums replying with good feedback.

Broken armors have set penalties (1/2 AC and 2x skill penalty), but not environmental protections, so you are safe from the space suit breach until the armor is destroyed. CRB, 273. That in itself is not house ruling, but being able to sunder armor might be. I’m not entirely convinced sunder armor is beyond the rules. There might be some more information somewhere.


Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Pantshandshake wrote:

Regarding force fields: You can’t just take the first sentence. Read the whole thing. Like this part: While a force field is active, you gain a number of temporary Hit Points depending on the force field’s power. All damage dealt to you is subtracted from the force field’s temporary Hit Points first.

You, the character, gain temporary hit points (not your items.) When damage is done to you, the character, it comes off of these first.

Regarding repairing items: The cost for fixing a damaged item is fair. The opportunity to do so may or may not arise, depending on party makeup, the adventure itself, downtime, etc. And again, if a PC’s very expensive armor is destroyed, then the GM needs to replace it via an item or equivalent cash, so why did we go through the trouble of making all these house rules?

Regarding Sunder, armor hp, and damage in general: The fact that there is a Sunder maneuver in the game, and the fact that armor has HP and hardness, are, at present, two entirely different sets of rules that do not interact. Consistently pointing out that Sunder is a thing and armor HP/hardness is a thing, and using that as ‘proof’ that you can sunder armor is kind of like telling me that ice cream is purple, and that’s why it has no bones. It doesn’t make any sense.

Additionally, while I don’t necessarily disagree with you that logically Sunder would work on armor, by the rules, it does not. So, I appreciate that you WANT it to work, but it doesn’t, and repeating ‘but it should!’ isn’t doing anything. If you want it to work in your game, its house rules, and I hope you can create a set of house rules that are fair and not broken.

We are literally at the crossroads where Logic and game mechanics are at odds!

For example, force fields cover you, your armor, your weapons and whatever you are holding but won’t take effect for any of those things except your PC. That’s the game mechanic but logically force fields should take damage for your armor, your weapon or whatever you are holding as well. I would argue that despite the rules not spelling it out, it is implied that force fields covering weapons would also work against sunder maneuvers against held weapons. By extension this should apply to your worn armor as well. However it’s not explicitly stated.

In all fairness, yes, I do want sunder maneuvers to work on armors, but I am not reasoning that on what I want, I am bringing up substance that indicates that it should work on armor as well.

-there is a lv 1 armor upgrade that increases hardness and HP of armor that almost serves no other purpose than a few rare fringe cases. It only makes sense to have this as a boost against sunder maneuvers. I challenge you to come up with a few other good reasons.

-armor just like weapons has hardness, hp and broken conditions. Why are weapons affected but allegedly not armor?

-even the armor hardness and hit points scale up vs weapon damage of equal level. You are not going to easily one-shot someone’s armor with a sunder maneuver and put them beyond the broken condition.
At lv1 the hardness is 7 and the hp is 18. So if you want to one shot break an armor or weapon you need to deal 16 points of damage in one go
At lv 20 the hardness is 45 and hp is 105. You need to deal over 100 dmg to break it with a asunder maneuver.

I can agree that the rules don’t explicitly state that sunder armor is a thing, but everything you need to do, is set up for it and ready. (Except the ulrikka fusion- that thing is powerfull!)

Hmm, maybe one of the developers are reading this and can answer:

Can you sunder armor?


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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Pantshandshake wrote:


Also keep in mind, this isn't Pathfinder. If you break my full plate, Its fairly trivial to get a new set if I can't fix it or get it fixed.

If you break my 30K power armor, and I can't fix it or get it fixed for basically free, then you need to either:
Replace the armor for the character
Ensure the character gets enough extra credits/loot to repair the armor
Ensure the character gets enough extra credits/loot to replace the armor (if it cannot be repaired.)

Otherwise you've 100% broken the WBL for that character, possibly for the remainder of its life.

Note that the GM is *absolutely supposed* to do one of those three things. WBL is a guideline, but its a guideline for the GM: "If this PC does not have around the WBL, then you are not giving them enough loot". 'Because someone blew up their expensive armor' is not a valid reason for ignoring WBL.

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