The Disappointment of Haste


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Just ran my second session of Pathfinder 2e, and while there is a lot to like, our group is also running into some surprising (and somewhat disappointing) issues. Multiple actions for each character is stellar, for certain, but plunging into a 2e game with a group very much accustomed to high-level play from 1e, multiple actions through quicken spell, attack bonus increases, etc, are very much something my players are familiar with and can game with.

Our first game saw the players go from level 1-2, and the second session we tested higher level play at level 6-7, and the spell Haste came up. Searching the forum, it seems like there is no special rule for this spell anymore and that it will suffer the appropriate penalty for multiple attacks. This seemed odd to the group for a number of reasons.

Perhaps it was in the past that Haste was an overpowered spell, but it was almost universally cast on martials even in 1e. It seems the focus was even more narrowly defined in 2e by restricting actions to Strike or Stride. Sure, fair enough. But shouldn't being augmented by magic counteract this penalty in some way? We've gone through a dozen combat encounters, and Strike, Strike, bonus, seems to be the typical approach for our martials, that bonus being a move or a shield or any number of one action deals.

We very rarely see that -10 rear its head because it's been tested and tested and tested and overwhelmingly, it's an exercise in failure against level-appropriate challenges. Sure, we can imagine the situation where we're facing mooks and a -10 is really nothing against a -1 Challenge enemy, but I'm curious what precisely Haste is meant to accomplish if we're supposed to see this spell manifest magical-speed enough to make an additional attack, but that attack potentially suffers from a crippling penalty. Like I said, the two actions for characters before seem to be reserved for their combat specialty; either the Strike, Strike or the spell or what have you.

Put simply, why go from a full attack bonus free-attack spell, to such a stinker? Is Haste really cast that often in your games? Do you feel this spell gives you 'bang for your buck?' The current consensus in our group seems to be a definitive no, but I eagerly want to be convinced otherwise.


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Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Well, there's always move>attack>attack>move against slow enemies.

Attack>attack>attack>attack can be thought of as giving your -10 roll advantage, and if the stars align it's good night bad guy.

Rangers and the like have ways to bring that third attack penalty down significantly, so they should be loving another action, especially at range.

All in all, it's still a fantastic spell. I'm not sure an extra attack at 0 MAP is warranted. Maybe a special effect from a high level wand of haste could do that?


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Certainly, Rangers will benefit, but it seems odd to have an arcane spell be oriented towards "you ought cast this on your ranger, assuming you have one" kind of flavor. But "if the stars align, this is a good spell" seems to bait the exotic, or in other words, making the use of this spell so rare as to not even warrant consideration in taking.

This isn't a dig at your explanation, it's just I'm struggling to find a good place for this spell when we're expected to "maybe with -two- negative 10's, you'll get lucky", or "it's the ranger spell", when this spell has been incredibly iconic since Gygax's Chainmail supplements. Why do we see this, one of the dozen or so spells the founder of our hobby gave us, so gutted and lackluster, and what were the dev's thinking this spell could be used for beyond those two relatively obscure circumstances?

It almost seems like a -waste- of a spell when the arcane caster's turn comes up, when before, through half a dozen editions, Haste has ever been one of these great multi-tools for us to use.


I'm trying to parse the quickened condition. You gain the extra action at the start of your turn, you can only use this extra action to stride or strike. Do you have to USE this extra action at the start of the turn, when it is gained, is that just when you gain it? like, can a quickened fighter Power Attack, Strike, then move?

It would be nice if you still got a status bonus to your speed, AC, and reflex save like in 1e


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Haste isn't an auto cast on every martial, no. If you're already swinging 3 times in a round, one more at -10 probably isn't worth it.

But it is EXTREMELY good on anyone who has to mix up their action routines more often. Anyone with an animal companion to command, for example. Shield users, Demoralizers. Or casters themselves. Haste makes an incredible addition to a caster who can swing a sword or shoot a bow.


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ofMars wrote:

I'm trying to parse the quickened condition. You gain the extra action at the start of your turn, you can only use this extra action to stride or strike. Do you have to USE this extra action at the start of the turn, when it is gained, is that just when you gain it? like, can a quickened fighter Power Attack, Strike, then move?

It would be nice if you still got a status bonus to your speed, AC, and reflex save like in 1e

This does -not- seem to be the case. This spell gives you a Strike or Stride, not an action that acts as a Strike or Stride, so you couldn't Power Attack with it.

This is why I see the spell as so curious, because of its -very- limited utility. No speed boost, no bonus to AC. Really, it's only giving you an extra chance roll for level-appropriate enemies. I feel like it could have been handled better.


Captain Morgan wrote:

Haste isn't an auto cast on every martial, no. If you're already swinging 3 times in a round, one more at -10 probably isn't worth it.

But it is EXTREMELY good on anyone who has to mix up their action routines more often. Anyone with an animal companion to command, for example. Shield users, Demoralizers. Or casters themselves. Haste makes an incredible addition to a caster who can swing a sword or shoot a bow.

Certainly, those caster's proficiency lends itself to such a casting. The spell flags Strike and Strides. In my experience, we don't see our wizards swinging swords all that regularly, to say nothing of wading into the fray.


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Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Starfinder Superscriber

No, its just the formal wording that interacts with when/how you get your normal 3 actions/reaction.

Check page 468 of the CRB
Where it talks about what happens at the start of your turn.

"Regain your 3 actions and 1 reaction. If you haven’t spent your reaction from your last turn, you lose it—you can’t “save” actions or reactions from one turn to use during the next turn. If a condition prevents you from being able to act, you don’t regain any actions or your reaction. Some abilities or conditions (such as quickened and slowed) can change how many actions you regain and whether you regain your reaction. If you lose actions and gain additional actions (such as if you’re both quickened and slowed), you choose which actions to lose."


NielsenE wrote:

No, its just the formal wording that interacts with when/how you get your normal 3 actions/reaction.

Check page 468 of the CRB
Where it talks about what happens at the start of your turn.

"Regain your 3 actions and 1 reaction. If you haven’t spent your reaction from your last turn, you lose it—you can’t “save” actions or reactions from one turn to use during the next turn. If a condition prevents you from being able to act, you don’t regain any actions or your reaction. Some abilities or conditions (such as quickened and slowed) can change how many actions you regain and whether you regain your reaction. If you lose actions and gain additional actions (such as if you’re both quickened and slowed), you choose which actions to lose."

Perhaps the formal wording confuses me. Could you parse this so it's more digestible? I still don't see how this explanation clashes with my groups interpretation, and thus, the spell's odd place and weakness?


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RCJak wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:

Haste isn't an auto cast on every martial, no. If you're already swinging 3 times in a round, one more at -10 probably isn't worth it.

But it is EXTREMELY good on anyone who has to mix up their action routines more often. Anyone with an animal companion to command, for example. Shield users, Demoralizers. Or casters themselves. Haste makes an incredible addition to a caster who can swing a sword or shoot a bow.

Certainly, those caster's proficiency lends itself to such a casting. The spell flags Strike and Strides. In my experience, we don't see our wizards swinging swords all that regularly, to say nothing of wading into the fray.

Then you haven't seen enough casters. The action economy of 2e makes gishing extremely easy. It takes a single ancestry feat to open up the possibilities of what you can strike with. And even a squishy elf wizard can enjoy haste. Stride away >cast spell >bespell weapon longbow shot is excellent.

Or crack open the bestiary. It is full of casting heavy hitters. A dragon with haste is terrifying.

It isn't an auto pick spell like it was last edition. But it is very good on the right builds, and there are plenty of builds that is true for. If you or a party member can utilize it well, if it is worth picking. If you can't, then you can skip it. That's a pretty ideal balance point for a spell, especially given how easy it is to retrain out of it.

Also, while the spell has stiff competition for 3rd level slots when you first get them, as a fireball can really turn an encounter, it remains a useful way to use a lower level slot throughout your career.


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from quickened:

"You gain 1 additional action at the start of your turn each
round. Many effects that make you quickened specify the
types of actions you can use with this additional action."

So the way it works is you gain 3 actions and a reaction at the start of your turn. If you're quickened, you gain 4. "1 additional action at the start of your turn." the start of your turn being when you gain the action, just like all your other actions, but not indicating that this action must be used first. This could be FAQ'd whenever they get to that, but I think Power Attack, Strike, Stride would work, unless you're reading it otherwise. When looking at the rules for gaining your regular three actions and then adding one action to that, it doesn't indicate the order in which you have to use your extra action, only that your extra action could only be used for the strike or stride, so you couldn't Power Attack twice, but you could still do your Power Attack first


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Captain Morgan wrote:
RCJak wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:

Haste isn't an auto cast on every martial, no. If you're already swinging 3 times in a round, one more at -10 probably isn't worth it.

But it is EXTREMELY good on anyone who has to mix up their action routines more often. Anyone with an animal companion to command, for example. Shield users, Demoralizers. Or casters themselves. Haste makes an incredible addition to a caster who can swing a sword or shoot a bow.

Certainly, those caster's proficiency lends itself to such a casting. The spell flags Strike and Strides. In my experience, we don't see our wizards swinging swords all that regularly, to say nothing of wading into the fray.

Then you haven't seen enough casters. The action economy of 2e makes gishing extremely easy. It takes a single ancestry feat to open up the possibilities of what you can strike with. And even a squishy elf wizard can enjoy haste. Stride away >cast spell >bespell weapon longbow shot is excellent.

Or crack open the bestiary. It is full of casting heavy hitters. A dragon with haste is terrifying.

It isn't an auto pick spell like it was last edition. But it is very good on the right builds, and there are plenty of builds that is true for. If you or a party member can utilize it well, if it is worth picking. If you can't, then you can skip it. That's a pretty ideal balance point for a spell, especially given how easy it is to retrain out of it.

Also, while the spell has stiff competition for 3rd level slots when you first get them, as a fireball can really turn an encounter, it remains a useful way to use a lower level slot throughout your career.

This is precisely why it feels profane to me. "You can make your wizard a front-liner, give him the extra attack,". Certainly, ancestry feats can give you some of the proficiency you need, but in the end, their HP is going to be lower, their AC is going to be lower, their options fewer in melee combat. Perhaps I haven't seen enough casters, but an elder dragon is a little different than a dedicated wizard, and while I can imagine a dragon engaging in melee while casting spells, expecting our wizards to mirror that kind of verve is asking a hell of a lot for our low-HP, low-AC buds.

You're right, it's not the great spell it was in 1e, but as I said above, this is one of the few spells we have from -before- DnD was a thing. And it's been utterly neutered. Fireball isn't this way. Why did Haste get the ax? What is the justification for making the folks that are typically good at Striking just taking a literal lucky stab at the end of their turn with ostensibly supernatural speed. It makes no sense mechanically or thematically. I feel like I want to explore why this spell is such a waste when it's been with our shared hobby for ages now, and a very iconic wizard power.


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Builds that love haste.

-Anything that mixes weapons and spellcasting. This can really be any class given how flexible multiclassing makes you.
-Alchemists. The additional action can let them keep popping elixirs while maintaining melee pressure much better.
-Barbarians. It lets them draw their weapon, rage, stride to the enemy, and strike them on the opening round of combat. And they have a variety of non-strike powers which eat up actions.
-Bards. Suddenly you can cast a spell and inspire in the same turn without being a sitting duck. Or take a pot s~#& with your shortbow. Or use that sweet charisma.
-Champions. Between shields, mounts, focus spells, high charisma for Demoralize, and low movement speeds they really can't have enough actions.
-Clerics. More specifically war priests. Divine weapon all day. Get that shield up.
-Druids. They can be built similarly to the war priest, but they can also get a pet that needs commanding.
-Rangers. Already covered.
- Rogues. Extra actions open up options for feinting, Demoralize, poisoning weapons, sabotaging something, and so forth.
-Sorcerer. Same as any other caster, as already discussed. Just spec to have a little talent with a weapon.
-Wizard. See above.

Fighters and monks are the only classes I can't think of great uses for it off the top of my head.


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RCJak wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:
RCJak wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:

Haste isn't an auto cast on every martial, no. If you're already swinging 3 times in a round, one more at -10 probably isn't worth it.

But it is EXTREMELY good on anyone who has to mix up their action routines more often. Anyone with an animal companion to command, for example. Shield users, Demoralizers. Or casters themselves. Haste makes an incredible addition to a caster who can swing a sword or shoot a bow.

Certainly, those caster's proficiency lends itself to such a casting. The spell flags Strike and Strides. In my experience, we don't see our wizards swinging swords all that regularly, to say nothing of wading into the fray.

Then you haven't seen enough casters. The action economy of 2e makes gishing extremely easy. It takes a single ancestry feat to open up the possibilities of what you can strike with. And even a squishy elf wizard can enjoy haste. Stride away >cast spell >bespell weapon longbow shot is excellent.

Or crack open the bestiary. It is full of casting heavy hitters. A dragon with haste is terrifying.

It isn't an auto pick spell like it was last edition. But it is very good on the right builds, and there are plenty of builds that is true for. If you or a party member can utilize it well, if it is worth picking. If you can't, then you can skip it. That's a pretty ideal balance point for a spell, especially given how easy it is to retrain out of it.

Also, while the spell has stiff competition for 3rd level slots when you first get them, as a fireball can really turn an encounter, it remains a useful way to use a lower level slot throughout your career.

This is precisely why it feels profane to me. "You can make your wizard a front-liner, give him the extra attack,". Certainly, ancestry feats can give you some of the proficiency you need, but in the end, their HP is going to be lower, their AC is going to be lower, their options fewer in melee combat. Perhaps I haven't seen...

It isn't a waste. It just isn't an auto pick. You pick the right character to cast it on and it is gold.

The fact that it used to be the best spell in the game doesn't make a compelling argument for keeping it the best spell in the game. Fireball was never as good as PF1 haste. I don't really care how far the history of the spell goes back. It was an overpowered spell. Now it is a well balanced one.


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yeah, given that attacking more than twice isn't super optimal for most classes, and there are so many different things you can do with your actions it seems less about getting one more attack and more about doing all your other stuff and still being able to attack


still bummed about not getting a bonus to AC and reflex, I might house rule that heightened to 4 or 5 it grants those if it's not pointlessly redundant with other common buffs that are likely to be around


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ofMars wrote:
yeah, given that attacking more than twice isn't super optimal for most classes, and there are so many different things you can do with your actions it seems less about getting one more attack and more about doing all your other stuff and still being able to attack

Wait, you mean I have to think about his to squeeze the best use out of the spell? I can't just drop it and double my party's DPR for the fight? I have to use TACTICS?

God forbid.


RCJak wrote:

Just ran my second session of Pathfinder 2e, and while there is a lot to like, our group is also running into some surprising (and somewhat disappointing) issues. Multiple actions for each character is stellar, for certain, but plunging into a 2e game with a group very much accustomed to high-level play from 1e, multiple actions through quicken spell, attack bonus increases, etc, are very much something my players are familiar with and can game with.

Our first game saw the players go from level 1-2, and the second session we tested higher level play at level 6-7, and the spell Haste came up. Searching the forum, it seems like there is no special rule for this spell anymore and that it will suffer the appropriate penalty for multiple attacks. This seemed odd to the group for a number of reasons.

Perhaps it was in the past that Haste was an overpowered spell, but it was almost universally cast on martials even in 1e. It seems the focus was even more narrowly defined in 2e by restricting actions to Strike or Stride. Sure, fair enough. But shouldn't being augmented by magic counteract this penalty in some way? We've gone through a dozen combat encounters, and Strike, Strike, bonus, seems to be the typical approach for our martials, that bonus being a move or a shield or any number of one action deals.

We very rarely see that -10 rear its head because it's been tested and tested and tested and overwhelmingly, it's an exercise in failure against level-appropriate challenges. Sure, we can imagine the situation where we're facing mooks and a -10 is really nothing against a -1 Challenge enemy, but I'm curious what precisely Haste is meant to accomplish if we're supposed to see this spell manifest magical-speed enough to make an additional attack, but that attack potentially suffers from a crippling penalty. Like I said, the two actions for characters before seem to be reserved for their combat specialty; either the Strike, Strike or the spell or what have you.

Put simply, why go from a full attack bonus...

The big reason behind Haste being strong is more for abilities that require all 3 actions. Need to move to do your 3 Action Heal or Magic Missile? Can't, unless you're Hasted. It also gives you more freedom with your round with the additional action, or it just makes you able to cover that much more ground. I've had numerous combats where simply the ability to move made a big difference.

I believe the biggest relent I personally have with it is that the spell specifically calls out one of two actions (Stride and Strike). You can't Step, which is a more calculated but much less distance Stride. You can't draw out a weapon or other item in the same time it would take you to Stride. You can't break free from an effect unless you decide to Strike down the thing that has you grabbed or whatever, and you apparently can't do any special one-action feats that feature Striking. There are numerous limitations behind the spell effect that make no sense thematically or mechanically. If you removed those limitations, I feel you would come across the kind of power you're looking for without making it an absolute requirement.

(No, I'm not saying to let it be used to cast spells. That'd be broken. All I'm saying is be more lenient with what the spell grants for actions. If it's something that is less than or equal to a Stride or Strike, allow it. If it's more than that, or is a part of something much larger than what the spell meant to allow, like spellcasting, then veto it right away.)


Captain Morgan wrote:
RCJak wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:
RCJak wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:

Haste isn't an auto cast on every martial, no. If you're already swinging 3 times in a round, one more at -10 probably isn't worth it.

But it is EXTREMELY good on anyone who has to mix up their action routines more often. Anyone with an animal companion to command, for example. Shield users, Demoralizers. Or casters themselves. Haste makes an incredible addition to a caster who can swing a sword or shoot a bow.

Certainly, those caster's proficiency lends itself to such a casting. The spell flags Strike and Strides. In my experience, we don't see our wizards swinging swords all that regularly, to say nothing of wading into the fray.

Then you haven't seen enough casters. The action economy of 2e makes gishing extremely easy. It takes a single ancestry feat to open up the possibilities of what you can strike with. And even a squishy elf wizard can enjoy haste. Stride away >cast spell >bespell weapon longbow shot is excellent.

Or crack open the bestiary. It is full of casting heavy hitters. A dragon with haste is terrifying.

It isn't an auto pick spell like it was last edition. But it is very good on the right builds, and there are plenty of builds that is true for. If you or a party member can utilize it well, if it is worth picking. If you can't, then you can skip it. That's a pretty ideal balance point for a spell, especially given how easy it is to retrain out of it.

Also, while the spell has stiff competition for 3rd level slots when you first get them, as a fireball can really turn an encounter, it remains a useful way to use a lower level slot throughout your career.

This is precisely why it feels profane to me. "You can make your wizard a front-liner, give him the extra attack,". Certainly, ancestry feats can give you some of the proficiency you need, but in the end, their HP is going to be lower, their AC is going to be lower, their options fewer in melee combat.
...

Then let me concede almost every point you've made as a very round-about way of making my point. Every class gets to do the things you outline. Wonderful. But Haste as a spell lets you Strike or Stride with an 'extra action'. What does this mean mechanically? What does this mean thematically? The answer to these two questions immediately diverge. Mechanically, if I look at my turn in a gamey way, I can make my first action x, second action y, which makes way for z with this formula.

Thematically? None of this follows. We're looking to make the character under this spell faster; he can swing a sword again, or move again, but what about the other class examples? Sure, we can create a certain combination of actions that game the system so as to be...somewhat practical? We certainly couldn't say this is ideal. It just gives a little wiggle room for other actions that -aren't even associated with the effects of the spell-. That is why this rubs me the wrong way. “I'll use haste to drink an Elixir!” “I'll use haste to command my pet!” How does this translate in the theme of the spell? The speed of the spell? Are you speaking extremely fast to your animal? How is that intelligible to a beast? Why is drinking an elixir not just another action you can do with Haste? The whole of this strikes me as gamey, it strikes me as cringey and it strikes me as underdeveloped.

This is my main point. I'm not arguing for the spell based on its longevity; you misunderstand me. That isn't worth nothing, but more importantly, how does this spell work and why does it flag only certain actions that it speeds?


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
RCJak wrote:

Just ran my second session of Pathfinder 2e, and while there is a lot to like, our group is also running into some surprising (and somewhat disappointing) issues. Multiple actions for each character is stellar, for certain, but plunging into a 2e game with a group very much accustomed to high-level play from 1e, multiple actions through quicken spell, attack bonus increases, etc, are very much something my players are familiar with and can game with.

Our first game saw the players go from level 1-2, and the second session we tested higher level play at level 6-7, and the spell Haste came up. Searching the forum, it seems like there is no special rule for this spell anymore and that it will suffer the appropriate penalty for multiple attacks. This seemed odd to the group for a number of reasons.

Perhaps it was in the past that Haste was an overpowered spell, but it was almost universally cast on martials even in 1e. It seems the focus was even more narrowly defined in 2e by restricting actions to Strike or Stride. Sure, fair enough. But shouldn't being augmented by magic counteract this penalty in some way? We've gone through a dozen combat encounters, and Strike, Strike, bonus, seems to be the typical approach for our martials, that bonus being a move or a shield or any number of one action deals.

We very rarely see that -10 rear its head because it's been tested and tested and tested and overwhelmingly, it's an exercise in failure against level-appropriate challenges. Sure, we can imagine the situation where we're facing mooks and a -10 is really nothing against a -1 Challenge enemy, but I'm curious what precisely Haste is meant to accomplish if we're supposed to see this spell manifest magical-speed enough to make an additional attack, but that attack potentially suffers from a crippling penalty. Like I said, the two actions for characters before seem to be reserved for their combat specialty; either the Strike, Strike or the spell or what have you.

Put simply, why go

...

Of all the counter-posts, this understands my contention. It just don't make no sense.


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Captain Morgan wrote:

Builds that love haste.

-Anything that mixes weapons and spellcasting. This can really be any class given how flexible multiclassing makes you.
-Alchemists. The additional action can let them keep popping elixirs while maintaining melee pressure much better.
-Barbarians. It lets them draw their weapon, rage, stride to the enemy, and strike them on the opening round of combat. And they have a variety of non-strike powers which eat up actions.
-Bards. Suddenly you can cast a spell and inspire in the same turn without being a sitting duck. Or take a pot s&$$ with your shortbow. Or use that sweet charisma.
-Champions. Between shields, mounts, focus spells, high charisma for Demoralize, and low movement speeds they really can't have enough actions.
-Clerics. More specifically war priests. Divine weapon all day. Get that shield up.
-Druids. They can be built similarly to the war priest, but they can also get a pet that needs commanding.
-Rangers. Already covered.
- Rogues. Extra actions open up options for feinting, Demoralize, poisoning weapons, sabotaging something, and so forth.
-Sorcerer. Same as any other caster, as already discussed. Just spec to have a little talent with a weapon.
-Wizard. See above.

Fighters and monks are the only classes I can't think of great uses for it off the top of my head.

Fighters: shields. Or other tricks.

Monks: stances. And covering ground. 'Hah! I recognise that as the Mountain stance! There's no chance that monk can get to me OW ALL MY ORGANS ARE MUSH HELP!'

I can also see why Step isn't part of what you can do. For one, you're Hasted. You're moving faster than normal. For two, the only reason I can see for it is something like 'I want to use Impossible Volley but I'm also standing next to an enemy with Attack of Opportunity'.

Also ... let's say some melee type is facing a wall of mooks. Cast Haste. Then cast Prestidigitation on the fighty type to clean up the bloodstains.


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I had a player complaining about Haste in the playtest. He was livid and ranted about it continuously. Fast forward to higher levels and he's casting it, making it a staple for his warrior.

While part of this was his nature, part of it's human nature to see what was lost rather than how Haste interacts with the game as is. In PF1 it was a game-changer and party tactics often revolved around Delaying or staying close enough to get it. At highest levels, my players would Extend Haste and commando an AP level in those 30+ rounds.
To me it's pretty obvious that needed to be reined in, even before considering PF2 sensibilities. And within the context of PF2, Haste is worthwhile. It's useful enough for a spontaneous caster to take without being required.

Baddie walked up and tripped your fragile mage? Stand up, Stride away, and still cast. Maybe even Delay so that your ally can Haste you to do this.
Can't get to the enemy? Hopefully you can now. Maybe even to use your nice 3-action routine with the cool Press. Or use that routine and move on to the next guy so that he'll provoke your AoO if he tries anything.

There are many times when the extra action can help alleviate a bad situation, like being Stunned, Slowed, or wanting to cough away a Sickness effect. It's not just for a high MAP swing tagged on the end.
PCs often struggle to get all their actions in, and often those actions feature a Stride or normal Strike. This allows for that.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I think the fluff of haste melds fine with the mechanics. It physically accelerates, it has no mental trait. I know if I could suddenly move 25% faster I'd be unlikely to do anything fancy with that. In fact I know for sure, the faster I try to move in real life the less precision I can exert.

So you move faster but dont think fast enough to formulate extra spellcasting or have the focus to use your advanced martial form.

It reminds me of some of the white wolf stuff about super speed. In the latest vampire there is a power that let's you move so fast everyone sees it as a teleport, functionally yourself included such that if you dont have a clear line you have to roll to not crash into things.


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Haste is a dissappointment but no more so than the rest of the spells. All magic has been savagely depowered. It was a design goal, get used to it.
We complained about imbalance between the classes, well this is what balance looks like.

What it does mean is that HASTE isn't compulsory, but we still use it a lot.

It also means that high level play is possible and manageable. It doesn't descend into quite the farce on PF1.

Still I miss the flavour of the high magic game.

Wayfinders

Captain Morgan wrote:


Fighters and monks are the only classes I can't think of great uses for it off the top of my head.

Fighters and Monks love it too.

Fighters - Stride, Strike, Strike, Raise Shield (and many more options).

Monks - Stride, Flurry, Trip, Stride (and many more options).

Haste lets you take that extra action you usually don't due to other limitations. Battle medicine, intimidate, drink a potion, sustain a spell (obviously for a multi-class), all while still doing a strike or 2 (or 3).

Dark Archive

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RCJak wrote:

Then let me concede almost every point you've made as a very round-about way of making my point. Every class gets to do the things you outline. Wonderful. But Haste as a spell lets you Strike or Stride with an 'extra action'. What does this mean mechanically? What does this mean thematically? The answer to these two questions immediately diverge. Mechanically, if I look at my turn in a gamey way, I can make my first action x, second action y, which makes way for z with this formula.

Thematically? None of this follows. We're looking to make the character under this spell faster; he can swing a sword again, or move again, but what about the other class examples? Sure, we can create a certain combination of actions that game the system so as to be...somewhat practical? We certainly couldn't say this is ideal. It just gives a little wiggle room for other actions that -aren't even associated with the effects of the spell-. That is why this rubs me the wrong way. “I'll use haste to drink an Elixir!” “I'll use haste to command my pet!” How does this translate in the theme of the spell? The speed of the spell? Are you speaking extremely fast to your animal? How is that intelligible to a beast? Why is drinking an elixir not just another action you can do with Haste? The whole of this strikes me as gamey, it strikes me as cringey and it strikes me as underdeveloped.

This is my main point. I'm not arguing for the spell based on its longevity; you misunderstand me. That isn't worth nothing, but more importantly, how does this spell work and why does it flag only certain actions that it speeds?

This feels like a pretty bizzare complaint. I'm not sure if your issue with the spell stems from misunderstanding some wording, but it certainly feels like something has gone wrong something here.

Haste grants us the Quickened Condition.

Quickened wrote:
You gain 1 additional action at the start of your turn each round. Many effects that make you quickened specify the types of actions you can use with this additional action. If you become quickened from multiple sources, you can use the extra action you’ve been granted for any single action allowed by any of the effects that made you quickened. Because quickened has its effect at the start of your turn, you don’t immediately gain actions if you become quickened during your turn.

Of note, and to address an earlier issue you brought up, "at the start of your turn" does not mean that the extra action has to be used as your first action the round or anything like that. It simply adds an action to your overall action pot, which refreshes at the top of each round.

So, for the duration of haste, we now have 4 actions per round.

Haste does, however, lumber us with a restriction that this additional action can only be used for Strikes or Strides. Compare this with the Allegro spell, which does mostly the same thing but also adds a Step action to the mix.

Your issue with the spell seems to be two-fold.

Firstly, you feel that this additional, restricted, action is not in keeping with the theme of "going faster". Hands up, I don't understand this one. Doing more things in a round means doing of them faster. That's just it.

If you are making arguments like

Quote:
Are you speaking extremely fast to your animal? How is that intelligible to a beast?

You have already lost your suspension of disbelief in the general game as a whole. It's literally magic dude.

However

Quote:
Why is drinking an elixir not just another action you can do with Haste?

This is where I think your understanding of the spell breaks down. You 100% can drink that elixer with haste...

Just not with the action granted by it explicitly.

If you were planning to make a strike or a stride at any point in your turn, you can now do those things (or any actions which are replacement effects for strike or stride actions) while retaining your unrestricted actions to do something else. The value of what you do with those other actions has no bearing on the spell Haste itself, as those actions don't become anymore or less valuable than if you used them otherwise.

Except in one particular instance.

This brings me to your 2nd real issue with the spell. The lack of protection from MAP.

With haste you can take up to 4 actions with the Attack trait in a turn, with the penalty progression of -0, -5, -10, -10.

Your contention is that overcoming the -10 penalty is so difficult as to make the spell worthless.

Forgoing that there is a ton of ways to not only reduce the value of MAP, but also to increase your bonus to attack overall. In the exact situation where you are trying to smack your opponent 4 times straight, its tactical value hinges on how well you are already optimized for attacking.

In this case, the value of your 4th attack is mechanically identical as your 3rd. So if you are bad at one, you will be bad at the other, in which, perhaps reconsider your approach to the situation.

The bottom line is that haste is a purely additive function, and is a means of generating additional utility. It doesn't make you better at things you weren't already good at. If you weren't going to make that 3rd attack, you obviously weren't going to make a 4th either.


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Haste is great for any character who fulfills both of these conditions:
A) Has a use for 4 actions in a turn
B) Plans to stride or strike as one or more of their normal 3 actions

That's it. All martial characters fulfill condition B, so you would just need to invest in ways to leverage extra actions (demoralize, shields, caster multiclass, anything really) and you're good. All casters fulfill condition condition A, and getting to move + cast spells is a big boon.

Like Old_Man_Robot, I think the OP has fundamentally misunderstood how the spell works. You don't have to save the haste action for your last action, you can use it as soon as you stride or strike during your turn.


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I would echo that haste is a stupendously useful spell for the majority of characters in a wide variety of situations.

However, unlike it's PF1 version, in tactical play on a battlemat, the additional stride action tends to be vastly more powerful than the additional strike action.

From my experience, the average martial wants to move in, then use two actions. Power attack, attack>attack, flurry>assurance(trip), etc. Haste allows them to move in, do their thing, then move back. It allows the caster to play keep away from a blender o'death boss monster while still casting two action spells.

PF2 is a much more mobile game than PF1. Any spell that helps your mobility and action economy is going to be good.


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Standing there and swinging repeatedly for the fences was a boring part of all 3.x D&D. It wasn't interesting then and it isn't now. All subsequent editions: 4e, 5e, and P2e have done away with this sort of tedium.

Now you have to think about how make your hits count.

As long as one of the actions you want to use is a stride or a strike, then Haste has value. Stride in particular is now very valuable. Remember Attacks of Opportunity are rare. Very few monsters or characters have them.

Haste makes the kiting spellcaster a real thing. If the opponent must spend two actions to catch the caster, then their options for hurting the caster are reduced. Move more to make that breath weapon miss.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

My battle oracle loves haste!

True strike
Bespell weapon
Strike
True strike
Bespell weapon
Strike

Makes for a pretty amazing round for damage, especially when you consider the higher chances for critical hits.

Dark Archive

Ravingdork wrote:

My battle oracle loves haste!

True strike
Bespell weapon
Strike
True strike
Bespell weapon
Strike

Makes for a pretty amazing round for damage, especially when you consider the higher chances for critical hits.

"On sweet, I haven't seen a proper Battle Oracle build yet"

Wait a minute!


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Old_Man_Robot wrote:
Wait a minute!

;D

Sovereign Court

I don't want my players to have to plan out and state "This is my haste action, these are my normal actions". So I just say that Haste gives the character 1 free additional action. That action is not subject to MAP. It can be almost any normal action, with 1 limitation: You can't cast 2 full spells in 1 round. You could cast 1 normal spell and 1 cantrip though, if you want.

These change help a lot of character classes, rather than "this spell is only really useful to buff your martial characters, unless you find a work around".


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Samurai wrote:
I don't want my players to have to plan out and state "This is my haste action, these are my normal actions".

They don't have to do that. So long as any 1 action is a Stride or a Strike its legal, you don't have to designate that actions source at all.


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Malk_Content wrote:
Samurai wrote:
I don't want my players to have to plan out and state "This is my haste action, these are my normal actions".
They don't have to do that. So long as any 1 action is a Stride or a Strike its legal, you don't have to designate that actions source at all.

Yes you do, and your statement is precisely the reason why.

I've had numerous players try to use one-action attack feats with their Haste action or attempt to combine their Haste action with abilities like Sudden Charge or Whirlwind Attack, and when I point out it doesn't work, they then have to proceed to do their "normal/haste actions" shenanigans.

The fact that Haste isn't some interchangeable action (even with my unrestricted rule on the matter) means you can't just do anything with it. It's not like in the playtest with the 3 point -> 1 free action option, where that action truly could be used for anything.


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Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Malk_Content wrote:
Samurai wrote:
I don't want my players to have to plan out and state "This is my haste action, these are my normal actions".
They don't have to do that. So long as any 1 action is a Stride or a Strike its legal, you don't have to designate that actions source at all.

Yes you do, and your statement is precisely the reason why.

I've had numerous players try to use one-action attack feats with their Haste action or attempt to combine their Haste action with abilities like Sudden Charge or Whirlwind Attack, and when I point out it doesn't work, they then have to proceed to do their "normal/haste actions" shenanigans.

The fact that Haste isn't some interchangeable action (even with my unrestricted rule on the matter) means you can't just do anything with it. It's not like in the playtest with the 3 point -> 1 free action option, where that action truly could be used for anything.

So in other words, they didn't use any actions to Stride or Strike.


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Malk_Content wrote:

They don't have to do that. So long as any 1 action is a Stride or a Strike its legal, you don't have to designate that actions source at all.

Yes you do, and your statement is precisely the reason why.

I've had numerous players try to use one-action attack feats with their Haste action or attempt to combine their Haste action with abilities like Sudden Charge or Whirlwind Attack, and when I point out it doesn't work, they then have to proceed to do their "normal/haste actions" shenanigans.

The fact that Haste isn't some interchangeable action (even with my unrestricted rule on the matter) means you can't just do anything with it. It's not like in the playtest with the 3 point -> 1 free action option, where that action truly could be used for anything.

As long as ONE action they took was a strike or stride action they don't have to designate anything.

Power attack demoralize stride is valid for instance.


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Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Malk_Content and the Grognard are right.


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Samurai wrote:
These change help a lot of character classes, rather than "this spell is only really useful to buff your martial characters, unless you find a work around".

Did you miss Captain Morgan's post upthread where he mentioned the specific benefits all the non-martial classes can get from haste? Or all the other posts stating that haste for a third/fourth Strike is a waste and Stride, which is universally useful (not just martials), is a better use for it?

In addition, giving an extra attack with no MAP makes it more into a "always have this up on the martial" spell than it currently is, exactly like it was last edition.


Extra action with no MAP is like 50-100% extra damage output for some classes (Rogue, Barbarian for example). So, your Bards and Wizards just become hastebot...

Sovereign Court

The Gleeful Grognard wrote:


As long as ONE action they took was a strike or stride action they don't have to designate anything.

Power attack demoralize stride is valid for instance.

What if they want to Power attack, Demoralize, and Raise their shield because they are already in a good position? Does the Power attack count as a Strike (the feat actually says "make a strike")? Or does it need to be a separate, non-embellished, ordinary, single action strike? That is the kind of argument I want to avoid. And I could just say full MAP applies to your 4th action, but then it seems more weighted to helping spellcasters (especially ones that use a saving throw-based attack that doesn't have any MAP effects.) The martial character gets a 4th attack at up to a -15 on the attack roll, (almost definitely a crit fail) or a caster type could cast a 2 action spell, move, and then make an attack with no MAP penalty because it's his first attack of the round


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

There us no arguement to have. Activities that contain actions are not the same as those actions. You must take either the Stride or Strike action. No need to make it at all complicated.


If they want to Power attack or demoralize, they can still use their other 3 actions for those.

The only time this would come up would be if someone wanted to do 4 non-strike non-stride actions during their turn. Casters would love to do that (it would let them cast two 2-action spells) but martials are almost always weaving in at least a single strike or stride during their turn.

At higher level, martials get more attacks which at which point haste can start to limit what actions they take slightly, yes.

Sovereign Court

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Malk_Content wrote:
There us no arguement to have. Activities that contain actions are not the same as those actions. You must take either the Stride or Strike action. No need to make it at all complicated.

It just doesn't make much sense. You are much faster than normal, so you have time to power attack and then make a regular attack and move 30 feet, but not enough time to raise your shield and drink your potion?


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Samurai wrote:
Malk_Content wrote:
There us no arguement to have. Activities that contain actions are not the same as those actions. You must take either the Stride or Strike action. No need to make it at all complicated.
It just doesn't make much sense. You are much faster than normal, so you have time to power attack and then make a regular attack and move 30 feet, but not enough time to raise your shield and drink your potion?

Magic doesn't make much sense anyway.

The goal is to make things balanced, not logical.


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Samurai wrote:
Malk_Content wrote:
There us no arguement to have. Activities that contain actions are not the same as those actions. You must take either the Stride or Strike action. No need to make it at all complicated.
It just doesn't make much sense. You are much faster than normal, so you have time to power attack and then make a regular attack and move 30 feet, but not enough time to raise your shield and drink your potion?

Except you do.

To illustrate, here are two turns by a martial, one with haste and one without haste. Both are within range of their enemy. The hasted action is in italics.

Unhasted martial: Demoralize - Strike - Strike.

Hasted Martial: Demoralize - Strike - Strike - Raise a Shield.

Seems like the hasted martial was perfectly able to raise their shield as a result of the haste.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Samurai wrote:
Malk_Content wrote:
There us no arguement to have. Activities that contain actions are not the same as those actions. You must take either the Stride or Strike action. No need to make it at all complicated.
It just doesn't make much sense. You are much faster than normal, so you have time to power attack and then make a regular attack and move 30 feet, but not enough time to raise your shield and drink your potion?

Time for some Blue Peter magic

Quote:

I think the fluff of haste melds fine with the mechanics. It physically accelerates, it has no mental trait. I know if I could suddenly move 25% faster I'd be unlikely to do anything fancy with that. In fact I know for sure, the faster I try to move in real life the less precision I can exert.

So you move faster but dont think fast enough to formulate extra spellcasting or have the focus to use your advanced martial form.

It reminds me of some of the white wolf stuff about super speed. In the latest vampire there is a power that let's you move so fast everyone sees it as a teleport, functionally yourself included such that if you dont have a clear line you have to roll to not crash into things.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Samurai wrote:
That is the kind of argument I want to avoid.

So point them to the Subordinate Actions section on page 462 of the Core Rulebook. No argument. If they try to force one, shut. that. s*!*. down.

Somebody still willing to argue in the face on incontrovertible proof is just trying to gain an advantage, or demonstrate power over a weak GM.


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ofMars wrote:
yeah, given that attacking more than twice isn't super optimal for most classes, and there are so many different things you can do with your actions it seems less about getting one more attack and more about doing all your other stuff and still being able to attack

Or more importantly, still being able to move.

I'm scratching my head over this thread, frankly. Getting an extra action is amazing for any build. Why would a wizard need to be good with a weapon to benefit from an extra action, for example? Perform any 3 actions and still be able to move too. Seems like a no-brainer.


Ravingdork wrote:

My battle oracle loves haste!

True strike
Bespell weapon
Strike
True strike
Bespell weapon
Strike

Makes for a pretty amazing round for damage, especially when you consider the higher chances for critical hits.

Bespell Weapon is only usable once per turn, though it lasts until the end of your turn, so technically it's

True Strike
Bespell Weapon
Strike
True Strike
Strike

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