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Well pathfinder is a setting with robots, pirates, dinosaurs, dragons, weird space monsters sleeping inside the planet waiting to envelope everything in madness.... pirates using guns better than single shot pistols is not that far off of what is possible.
Also, the key is always striking a balance between reality and magic. For example: The lv 1 character has no reason to be falling from space and surviving and the lv 20 character has no reason to die from a 2 ft fall.
More than that, Pathfinder and Golarion is also a world that has the nation of Alkenstar in the Impossible Lands, a nation known to have guns and technology. The Lost Omens guide even says, "Firearm and siege weapon production has vastly increased over the last decade." That's why I created the Alchemical Gunslinger and it has the "From Alkenstar or trained by someone who is.
New Archetype: Alchemical Gunslinger Dedication (Feat 2) **
Prerequisites: Trained in Crafting
Access: You are from the Alkenstar region or were trained by someone who has this Dedication
You become Trained in the Wilderness Lore skill If you were already Trained, it becomes Expert instead. You become Trained in Advanced Weapons: Guns. You get the Alchemical Crafting feat and start with the Formulas for Cartridges and Alchemical Cartridges. You also start with 1 gun of your choice and Alchemist’s Tools if you don’t already have them.
Rapid Reload (Feat 4): You reduce the time to reload a gun to 1 action.
Expert Shot (Feat 6): When you critically hit with a gun attack, the target becomes flatfooted until the start of your next turn.
Master Gunsmith (Feat 8): You specialize in crafting and repairing guns and cartridges. Your Crafting Skill increases to Expert, if it wasn’t already. If you Crit Fail on a Crafting or Repair roll for a gun or cartridges, treat it as a Failure instead. You may craft twice as many Cartridges or Alchemical Cartridges in a single batch.
Armor Piercing Rounds (Feat 10): All Cartridges you craft have +5 Penetration value.
Gunfighter (Feat 12): Your rank in Advanced Weapons: Guns increases to Expert.
- New Advanced Ranged Weapons: Guns (All guns are Uncommon)
*************Price******Damage******Range**Reload**Bulk**Hands******Traits
Pistol******** 15 gp ******1d8 P ********30 ft.**** 2 ******1 **** 1 ******** Fatal d10, Penetration 5
Musket*******22 gp *****1d10 P *******50 ft. **** 2****** 2 **** 2 ******** Fatal d12, Penetration 10
Blunderbuss **25 gp *****1d10 P ******* 20 ft.**** 2****** 2 **** 2 ******** Fatal d12, Penetration 5, 10’ cone
(Penetration reduces the target’s Resistance by that amount)
New Formulas:
Standard Cartridge (Item 2): (Consumable, Uncommon)
Price: 5 sp for 10. Bulk: L
Alchemical Cartridge (Item 2+): (Consumable, Uncommon)
By treating the Cartridges with an Alchemical Bomb that deals energy damage, it adds the Bomb’s damage and energy type, and any Item bonus to attack rolls. There is no splash dmg or other effects. (All bonus damage is added to the regular cartridge damage by gun type)
Type: Lesser Level: 2 Price: 4 gp Prerequisite: Lesser Alchemical Bomb, Cartridge
+1d6 damage by the bomb’s energy type
Type: Moderate Level: 4 Price: 12 gp Prerequisite: Moderate Alchemical Bomb, Cartridge
+2d6 damage by the bomb’s energy type, +1 Item bonus on attacks
Type: Greater Level: 12 Price: 300 gp Prerequisite: Greater Alchemical Bomb, Cartridges
+3d6 damage by the bomb’s energy type, +2 Item bonus on attacks
Type: Major Level: 18 Price: 3000 gp Prerequisite: Major Alchemical Bomb, Cartridges
+4d6 damage by the bomb’s energy type, +3 Item bonus on attack
You didnt need to play 1 specific class all you really needed were 2 feats: Firearm proficiency and Gunsmithing.
for a very expensive weapon that was worse than a crossbow.
and only because of all the downsides guns come with.
to be clear, outside of classes that specifically made guns better i haven't seen a single person use a gun in my entire time playing, and there was very little reason to over a crossbow.
to be clear, outside of classes that specifically made guns better i haven't seen a single person use a gun in my entire time playing, and there was very little reason to over a crossbow.
I also didn't see anyone use a gun without class features that helped them use them.
It was great and I hope it continues to be the case in PF2.
It looks like the point is to try to find that sweet spot where the musket or pistol are useful but not universal. There's a reason why the people of Earth poured centuries of time and effort into improving those bangsticks.
As far as how? Well, the only 'real life' reference I have is a scene from 'Glory' where the colonel tells his men that a trained infantryman in American Civil War times can snap off three aimed shots in a minute. One shot every twenty seconds, and if a round is six seconds that's one shot every three or four rounds. Reload 9 is ... not feasible. Keep in mind that reload 2 for the most part relegates the poor heavy crossbow to being the shelfwarmers at your local Bloodbath and Beyond.
Why did you start this thread in the first place if just deciding to reskin crossbows into guns solves your problem then? You basically wasted everyone's time with a problem you didn't even have. If firearms are that simple to implement, balance be damned, then go for it.Sure, have gunpowder and bullets function exactly like crossbow bolts as well, it would be a shame to take any risks by making the setting believable.Why have them in the first place if they're no different from what already exists in the game?Because they're just window dressing for a steampunk setting and the aesthetic is more important than potentially unbalancing your game?That's not even remotely related to Pathfinder. What is your point?You don't expect to see pirates wielding M-16s or 44 magnums, that's just not part of the fantasy.Arcanum: Of Steamworks and Magick Obscura disagrees.1.) The moment you decide to die on the hill of absolute realism is when PF/D&D break down completely. It's a toally arbitrary standard that is selectively enforced. It's not "believable" that someone can fall 300ft off a cliff and survive, and yet we still hand waive it.
2.) The point is that you're making a claim about the genre "fantasy" as if it is limited to your personal definition.
You're awfully spicy, aren't you? I started the thread to ask a single question - whether or not we'd be seeing the gunslinger class - and it got answered right away.
to be clear, outside of classes that specifically made guns better i haven't seen a single person use a gun in my entire time playing, and there was very little reason to over a crossbow.I also didn't see anyone use a gun without class features that helped them use them.
It was great and I hope it continues to be the case in PF2.
Right, because a switch hitter with a Pistol and a Cutlass isn't piraty at all, and so people only ever used guns or didn't ever. They shouldn't be tied to specific classes.
Right, because a switch hitter with a Pistol and a Cutlass isn't piraty at all, and so people only ever used guns or didn't ever. They shouldn't be tied to specific classes.to be clear, outside of classes that specifically made guns better i haven't seen a single person use a gun in my entire time playing, and there was very little reason to over a crossbow.I also didn't see anyone use a gun without class features that helped them use them.
It was great and I hope it continues to be the case in PF2.
Argh, pistols be for yellowbellied, scumguzzling, deadweights! A real pirote uses blades for the nimble ones, axes for the burly bois, and a big, booming cannon held on the ship!
...Okay but talking seriously, you could run cutlass and pistol in PF1 since Gunslinger came with martial weapons. It ate every feat you got but you could run it, and it was a pretty decent idea due to the reload speeds firearms had. You just sacrificed damage on both fronts, something every switch hitter suffers from.
But I don't really see the problem of needing a specific class to use guns. After all you need a specific class to throw explosives or use a crossbow as anything more than a backup in PF1, and those have less archetypes than the gun. It's not the only thing getting this treatment.
Yep touch attacks on a weapon was a terrible design specially with their high damage and high crit multiplier.
But like I said before, you didnt need a whole class, most people who took gunslinger only took 5 levels for dex to damage. Others would take: Spellslinger to shoot magic, Arcane Archer to shot bullets and magic, Gun Chemist to shoot bombs, Gun Smuggler for free ammo, Trophy Hunter added touch attack range, Trench Fighter (when allowed) dex to dmg ar lv 3, Savage Technologist melee + firearm + dex to dmg + Dex boost with rage, Dune Drifter to be an gun toting cowboy, etc.
But then if the complain is "oh you couldn't use any weapon with any class", guess what? Most weapons couldn't be used by any class, the best classes where always either thematic or had enough free feats to make it work. PF2 continues to be the same, most weapons can only really be used by thematic classes. Which is why they removed the combat feat options from Ranger, why rogue cant use certain weapons, and why Barbarian are pushed towards the biggest weapon.
Having said all that. I fully expect gunlinger to be either a full class or a Swashbuckler archetype. Gunlinger and Swashbuckler are very similar and have always had lots of synergy, both in mechanics and theme.
here's the thing though, guns were set up to suck, unless you have class abilities to overcome their problems, and were stuck with the touch attack paradigm, so all advanced firearms ended up getting touch out to x5 range mod, and so no gm i know would allow them, including me.
the problem with them is many classes that should arguably be able to use them fairly well, just couldn't. you needed a feat to even get proficiency on most classes, putting them on the level of advanced weapons, except you could just roll 10% of the time to miss and lose an action.
like serious, don't make them more complicated than bows or crossbows.
I actually think part of the problem is that people just straight up banned gunslingers and firearms than try to come up with solutions to what they though were problems. So a large portion has this idea that gunslingers was needed to actually play well; Ignoring the fact even with just Quick Draw, you can have 1-3 preloaded firearms (expensive but nothing a mid-high level character cant pay) to shoot at the start of combat and then proceed to go into melee.
right, sometimes i'd even just self-restrict myself, because honestly a bow is just easier to play.
it was a mountain, where if you changed anything, you'd have to change everything or something broke somewhere.