Creative, viable Envoy options?

[Sadronmeldir]

GM here trying to help a player with some creative options for a Kitsune Envoy, but I've never Envoyed before so open to ideas.

The player concept is for Signal of Screams (level 7). She and another are doing a loose parody on the Psych tv show, with the Envoy being a fake psychic detective that's just really good at bluffing and the other character being a Biohacker as a parody of Gus.

Most of the recommendations out there for Envoy seem fairly vanilla - Longarm proficiency, versatile specialization, clever attack, get 'em and inspiring boost. Are there any more creative but viable options out there, especially with COM in the wild?

For instance, the Battleflower archetype has this cool ability to lock down a single enemy with a fascinating dance, which seems totally thematic for a Kitsune. Are any of the improvisations designed since the CRB comparable in combat effectiveness?

[BigNorseWolf]

The envoy does not archetype well, at all. Especially if you're only going to 7th level. Most of the good envoy abilities have a meh pre requisite and then a good ability.

The Cosmic Truth feat might do a lot of what you're looking for in a "break them by talking way" Fauna Spencer notices that the guard has tears in his eyes and a receipt for the jewelry store sticking out of his pocket "I know why your girlfriend left you!"

[Sadronmeldir]

BigNorseWolf wrote:

The envoy does not archetype well, at all. Especially if you're only going to 7th level. Most of the good envoy abilities have a meh pre requisite and then a good ability.

The Cosmic Truth feat might do a lot of what you're looking for in a "break them by talking way" Fauna Spencer notices that the guard has tears in his eyes and a receipt for the jewelry store sticking out of his pocket "I know why your girlfriend left you!"

The cosmic truth option looks amazingly flavorful without sacrificing much, really... I love it!

I'd agree with most archetype options, and that's what I'm debating in part with Battleflower. Since each level is optional, it could be used in essence to just be taken at level 6. It would in effect be swapping out one Envoy Improvisation for the ability to do two things:

1. Be able to use Acrobatics in place of Diplomacy to change attitude (even without a shared language)
2. Lock down one or more creatures with fascinate for the duration of a fight.

For the cost of one improvisation, that might be worth it? It feels like the sort that, were it an improvisation on its own, it might be pretty handy. Or is it still just better to go all-in on the improvisations?

[BigNorseWolf]

Sadronmeldir wrote:

1. Be able to use Acrobatics in place of Diplomacy to change attitude (even without a shared language)

Share language is fairly easy to use, as are universal translators. its kind of a niche situation and there are less intensive ways around it. Something thats as big and static investment as a feat you want to be always on or really close to it.

2. Lock down one or more creatures with fascinate for the duration of a fight.

Fascinate allows a new save or worse autobreaks in a stiff breeze

Fascinated

Any potential threat, such as a hostile creature approaching, grants you a new saving throw against the fascinating effect. Any obvious threat, such as someone drawing a weapon, casting a Spell, or aiming a ranged weapon at you, automatically ends the condition. An ally can shake you free of the effect and end this condition as a standard action.

Very thematic but your party would have to be willing to play along.

For the cost of one improvisation, that might be worth it? It feels like the sore that, were it an improvisation on its own, it might be pretty handy. Or is it still just better to go all-in on the improvisations?

[HammerJack]

Seeing that combat expertise does not jive with go-to improvisations Clever Attack and Improved Get 'Em, I have been poking at the idea of how to use it.

I'm considering trying to make it work with a whip and shield wielding envoy with 2 levels of solarian, stellar rush, phalanx fighting, possibly coordinated flankers, and a stack of reactions and things you don't need every round, like Don't Quit.

[Third Strongest Mole]

I find the new maneuver expertise option interesting. It technically provides an envoy with a way to have the single highest bonus to a grapple attempt. There's also the coordinated maneuvers improvisation, which grants a different bonus to an allies maneuver attempt roll.

Imagine a pair of tag team wrestlers classed as envoys. A shirren with the new helpful telepath and spot of luck feats, plus the coordinated maneuvers improvisation, and a trox with maneuver expertise to do the actual grabbing.(Bugs that hug!) After the appropriate setup, you could get the best of three rolls with a 1d4 + 1 + expertise on top of other bonuses.

At 8th level, when coordinated maneuvers is available, the trox could make a grapple attempt of

6 (base attack) + (5) (20 str) + 1d4+1 (coord maneuvers) + 1d6 + 1 (expertise) + 2 (racial bonus) + 2 (grapple weapon) + 4 (improved combat maneuver) = 20 + 1d4 + 1d6

For comparison, a CR8 combatant has a KAC of 22, meaning a result of 30 is needed to grapple, 35 for a pin. For simplicity's sake, take the average result from the d4 and d6 and combine them (2+3 = 5) for a total bonus of 25. This means a successful grapple on a 5, and a pin on a 10! Lest we forget, we get three rolls to choose from. Rolling under 10 3 times in a row is less than a 12.5% chance. This without applying any debuffs to AC, say from the shaken condition due to combat expertise. For added hilarity, assume we have a biohacker pharmacologist on the team who manages to inflict encumbered and entangled with his biohack. The combined penalty to acrobatics checks is so severe that, once pinned, they will likely never escape.

Edit: any corrections to this calculation graciously and humbly accepted.