Natural Attack Overload build.


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This is harder than I though it would be.


You thought it would be easy to create a character with pounce and ~12 different natural attacks?


Derklord wrote:
You thought it would be easy to create a character with pounce and ~12 different natural attacks?

Depends on the level range. BAB 10+ and you could use Coordinated Charge to pseudo-pounce (charging as a swift), and lv 13+ you could have taken Greater Beast Totem through Raging Brute.

Neither options are class-specific, although Raging Brute would restrict your available races to those who can take Racial Heritage.


You don't actually get the rage powers chosen with Raging Brute (you only gain their benefits when activating the feat), and thus don't fulfill the requirements of Greater Beast Totem. Not to mention the low probability of your GM allowing the whole thing in the first place.
Totemic Master would work, but requires BAB+13.

In any case, it's not the pounce alone that's difficult to get, but "pounce and ~12 different natural attacks".


Derklord wrote:
You thought it would be easy to create a character with pounce and ~12 different natural attacks?

I got it, pretty much:

A level in Brawler,
4 levels in Druid.
1 level in White Haired Witch.
Shaping Focus
6 levels in Warpriest.
Helm of the Mammoth Lord
Hamatula Strike
Weapon Versatility
Martial Versatility
Barding or Wild Armor with Armor Spikes

At level 8, you can Wildshape into an Allosaurus. That gives you 2 Claws and a Bite with Grab. it also gives you Pounce and Rake with 2 Talons for whenever you make a successful Grapple Attack. That's Bite, 2 Claws, Hair, Gore, and 4 Talons: bite generates a Grapple because of Grab, and that generates 2 Talon Attacks. White Hair also scores a free grapple, and so that also generates 2 Talon Attacks. So that's 9. Normally, you can't use Rake in the same round as you achieve a Grapple, but Pounce specifically empowers you to use Rake as part of your Full Attack during a Charge

With Hamatula Strike, the Gore also generates a free Grapple Attack, and so also generates 2 Talon Attacks. That brings it up to 12.

Martial Versatility allows any 1 of your weapon-specific Feats to apply to all weapons in the same group as that weapon, so Weapon Focus Unarmed Strike will apply Weapon Focus to all Natural Weapons and all Close Weapons (Armor Spikes). Weapon Versatility will let you do Piercing (Slashing, or Bludgeoning, your choice) with any weapon you have Weapon Focus with, and this character will have Weapon Focus with all her weapons, including Claws and Talons. So each of the 2 Claws generates 2 Grapples that generate 2 Talon Attacks, meaning each of the 5 regular Natural Attacks generates 10 Talon Attacks between them, and, in fact, each of those 10 Talon Attacks, via Weapon Versatility and Hamatula Strike generate 10 more Grapples and 20 more Talons, leading to a spreading Damage Tree, casting an ominous long shady shadow over every battlefield.

Infinity Damage! I win at D&D!


The attacks aren't triggering rake. Pounce triggers rake, which nets you 2 free attacks total. The only other time that rake triggers is when you start your turn grappling an enemy. Again, its not the grapple checks triggering it but rather the fact that you started the turn grappling.

Edit: If it worked the way you're describing a basic lion would get 9 attacksinfinite attacks on a charge. Making it quite a bit more dangerous than a CR 3. As each claw attack from the rake would generate 2 additional claw attacks.


Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Derklord wrote:
You thought it would be easy to create a character with pounce and ~12 different natural attacks?
I got it, pretty much:

12 different natural attacks. You have five.


Derklord wrote:
Not to mention the low probability of your GM allowing the whole thing in the first place.

If we're even entertaining the thought of 12 different natural attacks, I'm gonna guess we've thrown out the GM veto a long time ago. Who would even want to roll that many d20's during their turn?

Derklord wrote:
You don't actually get the rage powers chosen with Raging Brute (you only gain their benefits when activating the feat), and thus don't fulfill the requirements of Greater Beast Totem.

That seems like an unnecessarily pedantic reading of the feat, but sure.

====

@Scott Wilhelm

Here's the rules LordKailas are referring to.

Rake wrote:
A creature with this special attack gains extra natural attacks under certain conditions, typically when it grapples its foe. In addition to the options available to all grapplers, a monster with the rake ability gains two free claw attacks that it can use only against a grappled foe. The bonus and damage caused by these attacks is included in the creature’s description. A monster with the rake ability must begin its turn already grappling to use its rake—it can’t begin a grapple and rake in the same turn.


Ok, since polymorph effects don't stack and get rid of most other natural weapons, I'm thinking of getting the attacks from gear as much as possible. Helm of the Mammoth Lord, Tentacle Cloak, Animal Totem Tattoos, and Dread Armor were all mentioned and all stack using the Weretouched Shifter since it stays in a humanoid form and doesn't merge gear. I rarely use extra armor enhancements after getting the basic +5, so it wouldn't be too detrimental taking up the entire thing with this. I just can't use metal armor on a Shifter.

So, instead of using the dino, I'll go with Tiger aspect and get Bite and Claws. Using Kasatha as the race for extra arms, I can get Slam from that Chaos feat someone mentioned. The Eagle Tattoo gets Talons. Gore from the Helm, Tentacles from the Cloak, Wings from the Armor. Dip in White Haired Witch for Hair. Or would Hair disappear with the Major Aspect?

Are Fleshgrafts considered items? Or would using Major Aspect get rid of them? If not, then I can get a Tail Sting as well as not needing the cloak or armor for Wings and Tentacles.

Infinite attacks from a lion. Ouch.


@ Wonderstell,

This is what I'm referring to:

Pounce wrote:
When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can make a full attack (including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability).

Pounce specifically empowers creatures with Rake to get their Rake Attacks.

When do creatures with Rake get their Rake Attacks?

Well,

Rake wrote:
A creature with this special attack gains extra natural attacks under certain conditions, typically when it grapples its foe.

That means when you score a Grapple Attack, you get to Rake. Unless,

LordKailas wrote:
The attacks aren't triggering rake. Pounce triggers rake,

Are you suggesting that if the Allosaurus fails its Grapple Check, it still gets its Talon Attacks?

I'm really pretty sure that you only get your Talon-Rake only when you Grapple your foe, which means you get your Talon Rake when you Grapple your foe.

LordKailas wrote:
If it worked the way you're describing a basic lion would get... infinite attacks on a charge.

Only a Lion with Hamatula Strike and Weapon Versatility which requires Weapon Focus Claws. Most lions have none of those Feats.


Derklord wrote:
Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Derklord wrote:
You thought it would be easy to create a character with pounce and ~12 different natural attacks?
I got it, pretty much:
12 different natural attacks. You have five.

The Grapple attacks trigger Rake with 2 Talons, so that would make 7 different kinds of Attacks.


@Scott Wilhelm

Rake wrote:
A monster with the rake ability must begin its turn already grappling to use its rake—it can’t begin a grapple and rake in the same turn.

Rake does not trigger on every grapple check. It only triggers on a grapple if you start your turn already grappling an enemy (like if you grappled them the turn before). This is evident if you've read the whole paragraph of rules which you are currently quoting.

Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Are you suggesting that if the Allosaurus fails its Grapple Check, it still gets its Talon Attacks?

You would get your rake attacks on a Pounce, since that is part of the Pounce rules. But that still doesn't affect any grapple attacks.

Pounce wrote:
When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can make a full attack (including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability).


Wonderstell wrote:

@Scott Wilhelm

Rake wrote:
A monster with the rake ability must begin its turn already grappling to use its rake—it can’t begin a grapple and rake in the same turn.

Except for when it's Pouncing:

Pounce wrote:
it can make a full attack (including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability).

And creatures with Rake do get to Rake when they Grapple

Rake wrote:
A creature with this special attack gains extra natural attacks under certain conditions, typically when it grapples its foe.
Wonderstell wrote:
Rake does not trigger on every grapple check. It only triggers on a grapple if you start your turn already grappling an enemy (like if you grappled them the turn before).

But you do not have to have started the turn Grappling your opponent in order to Rake an opponent if you are charging and you have the Pounce ability, as I have shown to be clearly true.

Are you suggesting that it only works when you are Charging an opponent that you are already Grappling?

Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Are you suggesting that if the Allosaurus fails its Grapple Check, it still gets its Talon Attacks?
Wonderstell wrote:
You would get your rake attacks on a Pounce, since that is part of the Pounce rules. But that still doesn't affect any grapple attacks.

Pounce says you can use Rake when you Charge, but it says nothing about not having to make a successful Grapple check first. It says you can use the Rake Ability on your Charge, but you still need to make that Grapple Check. That means it triggers on a Grapple.

Are you suggesting that the Allosaurus Rake triggers on something else other than a Grapple?


Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Are you suggesting that the Allosaurus Rake triggers on something else other than a Grapple?

Yes. I'm not merely suggesting this, I am openly stating this to be the case.

Pounce simply allows you to make the Rake attacks in addition to your normal attack routine when charging. This means that a charging Allosaurus has five natural attacks: Bite/Claw/Claw as per their normal full-attack routine, and then Talon/Talon as per Rake.
The Allosaurus doesn't need to succeed on any Grapple checks to gain these rake attacks while charging.

I guess we were talking past each other since I simply hadn't considered that you had a different interpretation than the obvious one.


For what it's worth, I have always understood and used Pounce with Rake the way Wonderstell describes it.

Your Pounce counts as the trigger for your Rake.

You would not have to succeed at the Grab's grapple check, it's already triggered by the Pounce.

To trigger Rake in any situation you did not Pounce, the normal trigger applies.

In this case, you would have to start the round with your opponent already grappled.


Wonderstell wrote:
Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Are you suggesting that the Allosaurus Rake triggers on something else other than a Grapple?

Yes. I'm not merely suggesting this, I am openly stating this to be the case.

Pounce simply allows you to make the Rake attacks in addition to your normal attack routine when charging. This means that a charging Allosaurus has five natural attacks: Bite/Claw/Claw as per their normal full-attack routine, and then Talon/Talon as per Rake.
The Allosaurus doesn't need to succeed on any Grapple checks to gain these rake attacks while charging.

I guess we were talking past each other since I simply hadn't considered that you had a different interpretation than the obvious one.

So, you are saying the Allosaurus Rake only triggers on a charge, and not on a grapple, as is typical?

The general rules on Rake says that it typically occurs when the monster grapples, and the description of the Allosaurus does not contradict this.

And Pounce doesn't say anything about not having to grapple on your charge in order to Rake: it only says that Rake is a possibility.

What am I missing?


Scott Wilhelm wrote:
So, you are saying the Allosaurus Rake only triggers on a charge, and not on a grapple, as is typical?

It's good that you ask these questions, because I'd never expect you to have drawn those conclusions. The Allosaurus gains their Rake attacks when charging with Pounce, and when they start their turn grappling an enemy. They have two ways to trigger their Rake attacks.

Scott Wilhelm wrote:
The general rules on Rake says that it typically occurs when the monster grapples, and the description of the Allosaurus does not contradict this.

You can't pick apart the paragraph sentence for sentence if you want to understand the rules, that's the whole reason there are paragraphs. The general rules on Rake says that it typically triggers on a grapple. And that you must begin your turn grappling for Rake to trigger.

Scott Wilhelm wrote:

And Pounce doesn't say anything about not having to grapple on your charge in order to Rake: it only says that Rake is a possibility.

What am I missing?

This exact assertion.

Pounce doesn't say anything of the sort: there's no implied 'possibility' at all. Pounce never states that you "can use your Rake ability on a charge" or anything vague like that. Pounce states that you include your Rake Attacks when charging. Rake Attacks means two Talon attacks (in the case of the Allosaurus), not the special ability called Rake.


Wonderstell wrote:
It's good that you ask these questions, because I'd never expect you to have drawn those conclusions.

I'm drawing what seems to be the obvious conclusions to me. But while you may yet prove I am mistaken, I do assert that my position is well-considered.

Wonderstell wrote:
You can't pick apart the paragraph sentence for sentence if you want to understand the rules, that's the whole reason there are paragraphs.

I can say the same about you. You can't pick and choose: you have to consider the whole.

Rake says you get your Claw Attacks (Talon Attacks in the case of the Allosaurus), when you are Grappling. Pounce doesn't negate nor contradict that.

Rake says you only get to use it if you are in a grapple at the start of the round. Pounce says you get to use Rake during a Charge, so Pounce clearly allows you to use Rake even if you do not begin the Round in a Grapple. But Pounce doesn't say a thing about yoru not needing to Grapple in order to Rake, nor does it say that you don't get to Rake when you are Grappling.

Lions and Allosaurs have Grab in addition to Pounce and Rake. It seems pretty clear to me that the way it was intended to work is that on a Charge, they still get the Free Action Grapple due to Grab, and if that Grapple succeeds, they then get their Rake attacks because Pounce allows that.

Can we find a Monster that has Pounce and Rake but does not have Grab and see how that works?


Griffons get pounce and rake, but they do not have grab. When a griffon charges an enemy they get

1 bite
2 talons
2 claws

none of which triggers any sort of grapple attempt.


Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Pounce says you get to use Rake during a Charge

No it doesn't. It says the pouncing creature gets to make "rake attacks". That is not the same. The pounce description does not say the creature can use the rake ability, but that it can make "rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability". The distinction between the rake ability and rake attacks is vital to understanding the interaction. The ablity has the "only on a grapple" rule, the attacks themself don't (although you can't make them unless something allows you to do so).

Scott Wilhelm wrote:
The Grapple attacks trigger Rake with 2 Talons, so that would make 7 different kinds of Attacks.

No, that's multiples of the same kind. Two talons are not different kinds of natural attacks. Maybe you should more carefully read the thread - Heather 540 said "I don't want to have multiples of the same natural weapon. I just want one of each that I can get."


LordKailas wrote:

Griffons get pounce and rake, but they do not have grab. When a griffon charges an enemy they get

1 bite
2 talons
2 claws

none of which triggers any sort of grapple attempt.

Okay, good answer.


Ok, I do believe the Rake/Grapple/Pounce has been thoroughly discussed now. Back to my earlier question. Are Fleshgrafts considered items or will they disappear when a weretouched shifter uses Major Aspect?


Heather 540 wrote:
Ok, I do believe the Rake/Grapple/Pounce has been thoroughly discussed now. Back to my earlier question. Are Fleshgrafts considered items or will they disappear when a weretouched shifter uses Major Aspect?

sort of

Fleshcrafting wrote:
Although fleshcraft grafts are not magical, some occupy a magic item slot on the body, preventing that slot from being used for any magic item or other graft.

The stinging tail occupies the belt slot specfically. It seems reasonable to treat it as a magic item since it interferes.


Heather 540 wrote:
I just can't use metal armor on a Shifter.

Yes, you need Dragonscale Full Plate for Dread Armor.

Heather 540 wrote:
Dip in White Haired Witch for Hair. Or would Hair disappear with the Major Aspect?

Ambiguous (a.k.a. "ask your GM" stuff), but I'd go with no if the new form has hair. The rules say you lose "supernatural abilities that depend on your original form", but the white hair doesn't do that - it depends on having hair, and then the magic does the rest. Otherwise, you'd need to be Rapunzel to use the archetype. The polymorph rules aren't future-proofed for permanent natural weapons not coming from the regular biology (same reason Helm of the Mammoth Lord is problematic).

Heather 540 wrote:
Are Fleshgrafts considered items? Or would using Major Aspect get rid of them?

Not items but body parts once they are attached, so they seize to function on the ground of being "natural attacks (...) possessed by your original form".

"Fleshcrafting involves the same processes and applications as true fleshwarping, but is used to modify only a single portion of a living creature." Fleshwarping is "Willfully transforming one creature into another through magical and alchemical processes". Clearly, this is a transformation, not an item. "Fleshcrafts are living pieces of tissue". All quotes Horror Adventures pg. 165f.

With fleshcraft grafts, you can even get some unusual natural attacks (tendril and spines), although they still require hands, and cost a lot. There's a reason my first question in this thread was "Do you want an actual build for actual play, or a purely theoretical build?" - if you spend all your money on fleshcraft grafts, demonic implements, and/or expensive magic items, you might get a higher number of natural attacks, but not a rounded character that works in actual play. Not having early access to pounce doesn't help, either. Of course, making full use of flashcrafts also depend on your GM letting you play a Kasatha, which few will do - it is, after all, one of the two most cheesy "I want to cheat the system because I'm a dirty munchkin powergamer" races in the game. Or, in this case, "I want to cheat the system to have my turn waste the maximum amount of time, because I like it when every other person on the table hates me.

Heather 540 wrote:
The Eagle Tattoo gets Talons.

That's a polymorph effect.


Wonderstell wrote:
That seems like an unnecessarily pedantic reading of the feat, but sure.

About as pedantic as the distinction between rake and rake attacks, I'd say.

Contrast "Select one rage power. Once per day as a free action, you can enter a state of fury and gain the effects of this rage power for 1 minute." with "Starting at 2nd level, a barbarian gains a rage power. (...) A barbarian gains the benefits of rage powers only while raging"
The Barbarian description showcases the differences - you always have the rage power, but only gain the benefits/effects when raging.


@Derklord

Eeeh... It just feels like a restriction that big would definitely have been stated instead of merely implied if that was the intention. Especially considering that the feat is meant to be taken several times, so the situation will come up sooner or later.

Something like "Select one rage power. This rage power can only have a level requirement, if any" would have been nice.

Derklord wrote:
Wonderstell wrote:
That seems like an unnecessarily pedantic reading of the feat, but sure.
About as pedantic as the distinction between rake and rake attacks, I'd say.

Never thought I'd actually have to make that distinction.

====

@Heather 540

I'll throw my vote on the "disappears when you polymorph" pile, as it seems like it's actually modifying your body instead of simply being magical items.

Regarding the White Hair... Natural attacks from class features aren't generally affected by Polymorph, but the WHW technically requires hair to work. GM call, as mentioned above, but considering the feathered deinonychus theory I think you could argue for it either way.


So does the Feral Mutagen and Eagle Tattoo stack?


Bleagh, can't use the tattoos. Hm, perhaps I could go gestalt? Feral Warpriest Champion for claws then? It doesn't say it's a polymorph effect and since it's a class feature it wouldn't be changed out by wild shape. And use dino shifter aspect for talons. I won't have grab but I will still have pounce and bite.

I looked at the table and by using those, the Helm, Dread Wing, and the Tentacle Cloak, I will only be missing Hooves, Tail Slap, Tail Sting, and Pincers. Or I switch out the Tentacle Cloak for the Wyvern Cloak which gives its attack on a more permanent basis than the other one, but is far more expensive.


Heather 540 wrote:
Bleagh, can't use the tattoos. Hm, perhaps I could go gestalt? Feral Warpriest Champion for claws then? It doesn't say it's a polymorph effect and since it's a class feature it wouldn't be changed out by wild shape. And use dino shifter aspect for talons. I won't have grab but I will still have pounce and bite.

I believe we already covered that a Weretouched with the deinonychus aspect gains five natural attacks, claws included. They get Bite/Talon/Talon from the aspect, and can still use their Shifter Claws while in Hybrid form.

No idea why you think Gestalt is needed, though? You stay in Weretouched for exactly four levels, and then never turn back. Lots of alternatives for simple multiclassing.


Correction to my above post: It is, of course, supposed to say "[flashcrafts] cease to function". I shouldn't write posts after midnight.

Heather 540 wrote:
Bleagh, can't use the tattoos. Hm, perhaps I could go gestalt? Feral Warpriest Champion for claws then?

You already have the ability to grow claws from your first level in Shifter (you could also grow talons or a bite, up to two total attacks, but claws are the ones that stack with what you gain from Major Aspect). Normally, the Shifter Claws feature only works when not polymorphed, but Weretouched Shifter creates a special exception.

The regular natural weapons are Bite (P), Claw (P), Gore (P), Slam (P), Sting (P), Talons (P), Hoof (S), Tentacle (S), Wing (S), Pincers (S), and Tail Slap (S). Bite and talons come from Major Aspect, claws come from Shifter Claws, slam comes from Chaos Reigns, sting comes from Mutated Shape. Gore comes from the Helm, or 2 levels in Barbarian (since more than 4 Shifter levels are neigh useless, you'd want to multiclass anyway). Wings and tentacles can come from magic items.

The hybrid form that Weretouched Shifter allows "mixes the traits of her natural form and the major form of her aspect", you probably still have hair even with Deinonychus aspect. If you really feel the need for a 9th natural attack without the items, or 13th with them.

Wonderstell wrote:
Especially considering that the feat is meant to be taken several times, so the situation will come up sooner or later.

You do know that it's a feat for monsters and it isn't intended for PCs, right?

Also, there is nothing "implied", it's all right there in the text. If you would gain the rage powers, the feat would require additional text to overrule the "while raging" or "when raging" that most rage powers have (which is, presumably, also why the feat says you get the effects, rather than the usual wording of that you get the benefits).

Contrast the Totemic feat
chain - those feats say "choose" a rage power, and thus bypass the limitation of the rage pwoers that say "A barbarian must have the X rage power to select this rage power.". Raging Brute, however, uses says "Select one rage power.", and thus has to abide by these restrictions. And since you don't gain the seleted rage powers, you don't have those selected by previous copies of the feat.

Minigiant wrote:
So does the Feral Mutagen and Eagle Tattoo stack?

Yes. Feral Mutagen is not a polymorph effect.

Grand Lodge

I have an alternate way to effectively get 30 actual attacks in a round but it is also horrible cheese.

Play a skald (totemic) get a tiger animal companion.

Pick up raging grapple and the belt that give you constrict.

Rage pounce, attack grab, raging grapple damage, constrict damage, release, repeat for each attack.

Use other rage power for extra attacks or recess accuracy. Boars charge is great once you get a gore attack (auto crit is that a other natural attack?).

You can add planar wild shape and celestial servant if you feel you need 30 smite attacks around.

The attacks are 5 per pounce per tiger. Each does damage 3 times. 5x2x3 for 30 attacks.


I edited the comment and forgot to take that out. I originally contemplated gestalting with Dragonic Bloodline Sorcerer as it gets claws and eventually wings.


Ok, so I think the only way to get Tail Slap, Hoof, and Pincers are gestalting with Synthesist Summoner. So if I don't do that, I think I'm pretty much done with figuring out how to get the attacks.

So far, the plan is 4 levels of Weretouched Shifter followed by one of White-Haired Witch. After that, I want to get a few more levels of a casting class so I can grab Create Wondrous Items and Craft Magic Arms & Armor. That way I can make the items myself for half price. I'll only need two levels by also using the Magical Knack trait. I might just continue in Witch for that, getting constrict on the hair attack and a second level spell. Then I'll take a level in Fighter to get Heavy Armor Proficiency since I need full plate for Dread Wing.

Now for feats. Chaos Reigns is easy at level 3. Create Wondrous Items only needs 3 Caster Levels, which I'll have at level 4 with the trait. Take it at level 5 and then take Create Magical Arms & Armor at level 7. Since Fighter gets a bonus feat on the first level, I'll take Multiattack then followed by Mutated Shape at level 9. If I continue on with Fighter I get a second bonus feat at that level as well. I'm thinking Hammer The Gap since I'll have minimum 7 attacks by then so it should be worth it. I don't really like taking Power Attack if I don't need it for another feat. I just don't see the point at lowering my chances to hit for a single point of damage. So I'm leaning towards Skill Focus to up my Spellcraft for the later crafting.


Have you considered Armored Hulk Barbarian? You get rage and heavy armor prof, plus the best way to gain a gore. Alternatively 4 levels in Primalist Steelblood Bloodrager, which conveniently come with a caster level baked in.

You don't really need feats that much; Multiattack especially is only for the attacks from the very expensive magic items, I doubt you will have them at 7th level (and even when you have all four, the feat's effect is pretty much neglible).

Power Attack is mathematically definitely worth it, because 2 damage is worth more than 1 attack bonus. The large number of attack makes it actually better, as they compensate the increased swinginess that normally comes with Power Attack. You'll probably kill everything in one round regardless, of course.


Derklord wrote:
Power Attack is mathematically definitely worth it, because 2 damage is worth more than 1 attack bonus. The large number of attack makes it actually better, as they compensate the increased swinginess that normally comes with Power Attack. You'll probably kill everything in one round regardless, of course.

Power Attack is almost always worth it. It's somewhat situational. If you are fighting lots of creatures with relatively fewer hit points, so that you are likely to kill them in 1 round with your Full Attack anyway, you probably should not use Power Attack.

I have calculated that if the opponents' AC is high enough, you do more Damage/Attack without Power Attack, unless the AC is so high you need a natural 20 to hit, then you might as well use Power Attack.

Off-topic, but another time Power Attack is not indicated is when you are using Great Cleave, since high damage depends upon a series of successful attack rolls, each attack roll becomes more important. More on topic, this is probably true of the build I proposed on this thread, since it gets bonus attacks that cascade from successful initial attacks.


True, using a Rage Power to get Gore would be a lot less expensive. I had no idea that there was an archetype that got armor proficiency.

I do get full BAB for most of the attacks, so I guess losing one point to attack shouldn't be too bad. And yeah, I can hold back on Multiattack.

So 4 levels of Weretouched, 3 levels of Witch, and 2 levels of Barbarian. Now, I don't actually get Wild Shape until level 4 so I'm not sure if I can take Chaos Reigns until level 5. That pushes everything back one feat and leaves the level 3 feat open if I go human. If I use Kasatha, Power Attack at level one and Skill Focus at level 3. Chaos Reigns at 5, then Craft Wondrous Items at level 7. Mutated Shape at 9 and Hammer the Gap at 11. I might not even need Multiattack at all since the only secondary attacks will be Tentacle and Wings. I'm going to leave Craft Magical Arms & Armor until level 13 since I only need it to make the Dread Wings enhancement.


Ok, this thing is going to be MAD as heck. Mutated Shape needs 19 Wis, but I need a decent Int for Spellcraft and the Witch levels. I can dump Cha but dumping Dex means less AC which can get one killed. I'm leaning more and more towards the Kasatha since they get a boost in both Dex and Wis. Then I can drop Dex back down to an even 10 so while I don't gain anything from Dex I also don't lose anything.

With a 20 point buy, I can get 15 Str, 10 Dex, 15 Con, 14 Int, 17 Wis, and 7 Cha. Then I just put the stat increases at level 4 and 8 into Wis and I'm good to go there. If I ever play this character and the GM won't let me play Kasatha after all, I'll go human and drop Str down one point to 14 and keep the boost in Wis.


Heather 540 wrote:
Now, I don't actually get Wild Shape until level 4 so I'm not sure if I can take Chaos Reigns until level 5.

Er, what? Chaos Reign only requires "Knowledge (planes) 3 ranks."


Oh right. I must have had a brain short circuit or something.


Ok, I've been thinking about it some more and I realized that I might want to get the Extra Rage feat so I can get more use out of my Gore attacks. So I think I'll drop Hammer The Gap back and take Extra Rage at level 7. I'm going to wait to take the third level of Witch after I take Barbarian so I can fit it in there easier.

I've also decided to leave the stat boost in the Dex alone and not drop it. So that gets a spread of 15 Str, 12 Dex, 14 Con, 14 Int, 17 Wis, and 7 Cha which is plenty doable.

So as of right now, the plan looks like this:

Traits: Magical Knack and Reactionary.

1: Shifter: Skill Focus Spellcraft
2: Shifter
3: Shifter: Chaos Reigns
4: Shifter
5: Witch: Craft Wondrous Items
6: Witch (Take second hex here if GM disallows Witch-Haired Witch's hair attack to work with Wild Shape but allows regular hex hair attack.)
7: Barbarian: Extra Rage
8: Barbarian: Lesser Fiend Totem power
9: Witch: Mutated Shape
10: Unknown class. Continue with Barbarian?
11: Craft Magical Arms & Armor
13: Hammer the Gap


I think I'm going to take 4 levels of Witch in total. That way I get a second patron spell and free trip attack and 5 more feet of reach with her hair with the White-Haired archetype or a third hex if I have to use regular Witch. I'm leaning towards the Strength Patron to get Divine Favor and Bull's Strength.


The trickery patron for mirror image is handy with 4 levels of witch. You don't otherwise seem to have much defence.


I will consider it. Luckily I'll have plenty of time to pick out exactly what I need by then if I ever play this guy.


Four levels in White-Haired Witch would cripple your character, because the charge rules say "you must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent", and when your hair has 10ft reach, that's 10ft away from the enemy, meaning you couldn't make your other natural attacks via pounce.


True. I guess I'll stick with just 3 levels then.


I just realized something. If I have to use the regular Witch's hair attack, it has 10 foot reach from the start.


So let me drop a side question in here. If you make a Kasatha and you get 2 class abilities that let you get 2 claws...how many claw attacks can you make?


Extra bonus side question: If a human gets 3 abilities that let him grow and make 2 claw attacks what prevents him from making 6 claw attacks?

Yes, I know its silly. Nobody sane is going to allow that. But for the life of me I can't think of anywhere in the rules it says you can't.


Well, for the human, unless he's growing extra arms somehow, he's only getting 2 claw attacks.


Meirril wrote:
Yes, I know its silly. Nobody sane is going to allow that. But for the life of me I can't think of anywhere in the rules it says you can't.

It is indeed something not really adressed by the written rules. The main issue is that many natural attack granting options don't explain the 'how' and 'where' of these natural weapons. The intend behind claw growing options is presumably always that your fingernails grow. This isn't explicitly said, though, and as usually, Paizos ridiculously over-anthrocentric writing produces problems, e.g. there's nothing RAW preventing a Druid/Barbarian polymorphed into an octopus to grow claws on tentacles. But even for humans, the only actual rules regarding placement we have is this FAQ, which is still vague enough, and has the extra weirdness that technically it doesn't apply to anything without exactly two arms and two legs (like, say, a kasatha).

Of course, there is a lot of strong implications here, and while I'm a strong supporter of "use RAW as long as they work", this is one of these cases where the game breaks down when you do so.

Likewise, there is the implication that attacks use the respective body part which then becomes unable for other natural weapons (not counting Haste et al.). The only actual rule about that is that you can't use the same limb for both a manufactured weapon attack and a natural attack, again, the anthrocentric writing rears its ugly head. This gets really ambiguous when you relaize that a) a slam/claw combo might actually be possible as part of the same movement (slam as a punch, claw when drawing the hand back), and that using a head for both bite and gore is actually quite common. And then we have the two different types of gore (tusks and horns), which may or may not be intended to stack; and the tusk-gore + bite combination, which is even used by a published monster and really muddles the water.

Meirril wrote:
So let me drop a side question in here. If you make a Kasatha and you get 2 class abilities that let you get 2 claws...how many claw attacks can you make?

I don't see any reason not to let a kasatha have 4 claw attacks.

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