Cackle? Please don't make me.


Witch Playtest

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First thing: Yes, I know reskinning it is an option.

Mechanics aside, I really dislike that this hard codes a very niche, annoying RP expectation into the class. Here's a radical idea: maybe I don't want to play a witch who laughs and cackles in combat? When I played a witch, I avoided the Cackle hex for this very reason. I wonder if the thought process behind this core witch ability was something like "lots of witch players take Cackle", that really useful hex that let's you extend the duration of a number of rather potent hexes as a move action, "therefore players absolutely must love having characters that constantly cackle, so let's make it a key feature of the witch class".

I feel that a better option would be to rename it and have it work with any kind of verbalisation, including cackling but also muttering charms and curses, invoking one's patron or just simply screaming.


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I'm glad that the description for cackle opened the RP up to be either mirth or malice. My witch is much more likely to chuckle than cackle.

Now I am imagining a Witch/monk multiclass that cackles with a sharp "Hah!".


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It's not a key feature of the witch class though. It's an alternate version of Sustain with different keywords.

100% skippable if you don't want to use it.


Yeah, people didn't pick it because of the name, they picked it because it was ultra strong. It's the Power Attack debacle all over again! If it sucks now, then people aren't interested... Except Cackle is an automatic class feature every witch gets right off the bat.

If anything, Evil eye is a better example seeing as that one is still pretty decent and PF1 witches that used it will wanna keep it going forward.


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You can still Sustain the usual way, Cackle is just an alternative. I don't it has to be "mad villain laugh with thunder in the background" over the top either. "Good natured swashbuckler having fun fighting" is okay too.

More seriously, they may be avoiding opening the rp of it too much, not only because of the PF1 legacy and stereotype, but because Shaman had the non-laughing equivalent and they might not want those to double up once Shaman make a come back ? Meh. Not that I care much.

If enough people dislike it in the playtest, I'd expect Paizo'd be okay with loosening the flavor of it. It's kind of what all of this is for.
And if it stays that way, I'll just make Nelson Muntz the witch, so I can point and laugh at my foes. Ha ha!


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I think having it baked into the class is just an all-around feelbad for people who go for a different concept, even if you never use it.

I think such a concept-specific action really ought to be a feat (and it could stand to gain a mild power-up in the process).


Would a feat be worth it though ?
Are the differences between Cackle and baseline Sustain enough to warrant a feat slot on their own ?
I might be underestimating things, but so far I'm not convinced. It's nice to have, certainly, but it does not feel that nice. I'll let people with more system experience than me judge though.

I'd be quite fine with a less limiting flavor. I much prefer leaving that kind of purely rp things to the player's tastes, as long as its fits the mechanical parts (here, being loud and obnoxious).


Nyerkh wrote:

Would a feat be worth it though ?

Are the differences between Cackle and baseline Sustain enough to warrant a feat slot on their own ?
I might be underestimating things, but so far I'm not convinced. It's nice to have, certainly, but it does not feel that nice. I'll let people with more system experience than me judge though.

I'd be quite fine with a less limiting flavor. I much prefer leaving that kind of purely rp things to the player's tastes, as long as its fits the mechanical parts (here, being loud and obnoxious).

If it were made into a feat, it would probably have to be made slightly more powerful. IMO, the difference between cackle and sustain are so minor right now that I think it actually causes confusion for newer players reading the feature, so giving it some extra upside would alleviate that issue too.

Liberty's Edge

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Making it more powerful and making it a Feat would, I think, make everybody happier. The people who don't want it for theme won't have it, and the people who think it's too weak, or like the theme but also want a mechanical reason to use it often, will have a more powerful version available.

As long as it's good, that sounds like a solid improvement for most everybody.


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So only humans are allowed to cackle at level 1 is what you're saying?

Why is everyone so hung up on wanting it to be stronger? It doesn't have to be the class defining trick it is in 1e. It's okay for it to be a ribbon. They wrote it broadly enough that basically any vocalization is valid.

Leave cackle alone.


Dubious Scholar wrote:

So only humans are allowed to cackle at level 1 is what you're saying?

Why is everyone so hung up on wanting it to be stronger? It doesn't have to be the class defining trick it is in 1e. It's okay for it to be a ribbon. They wrote it broadly enough that basically any vocalization is valid.

Leave cackle alone.

The problem in my eyes isn't the power level - it's a class feature so there's nothing that says it's not like it's competing with anything else. My problem is rather that it's not at all obvious what it does to a newer player, which I believe to be a problem for such an early part of the witch's kit.

As for the 1st-level feat thing, I agree that'd be a little unfortunate. Perhaps there should be some other way for Witches to get 1st-level feats? (Like Wizard Theses). They already have some really thematic feats at 1st (Cauldron, Wortwitch and familiar's tongue) so it feels like a shame only humans get those.


Squiggit wrote:

It's not a key feature of the witch class though. It's an alternate version of Sustain with different keywords.

100% skippable if you don't want to use it.

Until you get to high levels where if you really find yourself sustaining a lot you could get the option to cackle as a free action which is really nice for sustain spells. That said for most of a witches playtime if you don't want to cackle than don't just sustain your spells normally instead.


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Dubious Scholar wrote:

So only humans are allowed to cackle at level 1 is what you're saying?

Why is everyone so hung up on wanting it to be stronger? It doesn't have to be the class defining trick it is in 1e. It's okay for it to be a ribbon. They wrote it broadly enough that basically any vocalization is valid.

Leave cackle alone.

Witches need something to be their class defining trick. If not Cackle then what else? As it stands the witch is just a spell list in a box, even the Wizard has a more interesting non-spell ability with Arcane Bond.


Henro wrote:
Dubious Scholar wrote:

So only humans are allowed to cackle at level 1 is what you're saying?

Why is everyone so hung up on wanting it to be stronger? It doesn't have to be the class defining trick it is in 1e. It's okay for it to be a ribbon. They wrote it broadly enough that basically any vocalization is valid.

Leave cackle alone.

The problem in my eyes isn't the power level - it's a class feature so there's nothing that says it's not like it's competing with anything else. My problem is rather that it's not at all obvious what it does to a newer player, which I believe to be a problem for such an early part of the witch's kit.

As for the 1st-level feat thing, I agree that'd be a little unfortunate. Perhaps there should be some other way for Witches to get 1st-level feats? (Like Wizard Theses). They already have some really thematic feats at 1st (Cauldron, Wortwitch and familiar's tongue) so it feels like a shame only humans get those.

They could just roll it over onto spellcasting like they did with the sorcerer and the bard.


Instead of cackle I'd rather it be "curse"
Since its mostly reupping a curse. you could "curse" via cackling, chanting, literal curses, dramtic speech, whatever. Maybe simularcrum stabbing (voodoo/hoodoo doll media stereotype) if they add in "switch visual for audio" clause

Just making it curse would open up all the RP methodlogy.


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I think it could be really neat if cackling could be used to frighten the targets of your sustained spells. Really flavorful and quite fun, at least in my opinion. Potentially a little hard to balance though.


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Cackling also strikes me as kind of twee and goofy and maybe something that would be better as an option rather than something intrinsic to the base class. Mechanically, cackle is super niche and it was only a popular choice in 1e because it was actually mechanically good.

So to reiterate Deadman's opinion: cackling should be a feat and it should do more for you mechanically.

I think it would be neat if Witches could use cackle to maintain a hex and a regular spell as part of the same action, for instance.


Why does it have to be powerful? The whole point is it's a little thing on the scale of eschew materials on sorcerers.


does anyone know what cackle do ? It looks like it removes the "concentration" tag from the "sustain a spell" action but it retains the only disadvantage of this tag, while adding two other tags with their own disadvantages. I get this ability for free, and yet it feels like a punishment. Why does this ability exist?


Gaterie wrote:
does anyone know what cackle do ? It looks like it removes the "concentration" tag from the "sustain a spell" action but it retains the only disadvantage of this tag, while adding two other tags with their own disadvantages. I get this ability for free, and yet it feels like a punishment. Why does this ability exist?

Because cackle was an almost non-choice on the witch and they just rolled it over as a mostly harmless class feature. It's flavorful but not great at all.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Gaterie wrote:
does anyone know what cackle do ? It looks like it removes the "concentration" tag from the "sustain a spell" action but it retains the only disadvantage of this tag, while adding two other tags with their own disadvantages. I get this ability for free, and yet it feels like a punishment. Why does this ability exist?

Avoiding Attacks of Opportunity... is a punishment?


In PF1, witches didn't cackle at level 1. (I suppose technically they could, but PF1 cackle doesn't do anything if it's your only hex.)


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whew wrote:
In PF1, witches didn't cackle at level 1. (I suppose technically they could, but PF1 cackle doesn't do anything if it's your only hex.)

Take Extra Hex at level 1, so you have two. My latest PF1 character did :)


Megistone wrote:
whew wrote:
In PF1, witches didn't cackle at level 1. (I suppose technically they could, but PF1 cackle doesn't do anything if it's your only hex.)
Take Extra Hex at level 1, so you have two. My latest PF1 character did :)

You need cackle for misfortune/fortune and almost for evil eye anyways. Extra Hex level 1 is basically the only option imo.


Not really the only option, but it's one of the best for Evil Eye/Misfortune/Fortune builds.

But then again Cackle only affected 5 hexes by default, all others had to opt in to the cackle effect.


Dubious Scholar wrote:
Why does it have to be powerful? The whole point is it's a little thing on the scale of eschew materials on sorcerers.

It needs to be more powerful if it is going to be an entire class feat and I think it would be better off as a class feat. Right now it is incredibly situational. If cackle--as it exists--needs to be replaced with something at all then throw them an extra skill.

Also, regarding no cackle at level 1:
Who cares? It barely does anything as it stands; it is just there for flavor and I don't even like the flavor. If someone likes the flavor then they can cackle to no effect as a free action and then take the actual mechanical benefit at level 2.


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Deadmanwalking wrote:

Making it more powerful and making it a Feat would, I think, make everybody happier. The people who don't want it for theme won't have it, and the people who think it's too weak, or like the theme but also want a mechanical reason to use it often, will have a more powerful version available.

As long as it's good, that sounds like a solid improvement for most everybody.

The removal of the power would also open them up to giving patrons a little mechanics teeth with restrictions in lessons coupled with an additional boon.


Temperans wrote:

Not really the only option, but it's one of the best for Evil Eye/Misfortune/Fortune builds.

But then again Cackle only affected 5 hexes by default, all others had to opt in to the cackle effect.

Cackle only working on the best hexes not named Slumber is enough for it to be pretty good.


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Midnightoker wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:

Making it more powerful and making it a Feat would, I think, make everybody happier. The people who don't want it for theme won't have it, and the people who think it's too weak, or like the theme but also want a mechanical reason to use it often, will have a more powerful version available.

As long as it's good, that sounds like a solid improvement for most everybody.

The removal of the power would also open them up to giving patrons a little mechanics teeth with restrictions in lessons coupled with an additional boon.

Yeah, it could be replaced with something actually cool that is automatic lv1 feature. Preferably something that makes the witch feel more "different" than a tag on their sustain action.


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Arachnofiend wrote:
Cackle only working on the best hexes not named Slumber is enough for it to be pretty good.

I haven't played around with Slumber, but I do like the quip I would pull out when I evil eye'd someone.

"They can make a save if they want to, its not like its going to matter."

*click button to cackle*


ChibiNyan wrote:
Midnightoker wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:

Making it more powerful and making it a Feat would, I think, make everybody happier. The people who don't want it for theme won't have it, and the people who think it's too weak, or like the theme but also want a mechanical reason to use it often, will have a more powerful version available.

As long as it's good, that sounds like a solid improvement for most everybody.

The removal of the power would also open them up to giving patrons a little mechanics teeth with restrictions in lessons coupled with an additional boon.
Yeah, it could be replaced with something actually cool that is automatic lv1 feature. Preferably something that makes the witch feel more "different" than a tag on their sustain action.

I'm not really sure you get the idea of ribbons.


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Why is cackle a necessary ribbon, then?


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I like Cackle (and it can be any kind of laughing anyways, as Nyerkh points out) and the player I have who's most interested in witches thinks it's cool, but I'd still not tie the identity of all witches to it.

As DMW said, making it a (slightly more powerful) feat would probably work better.

Or perhaps you could choose between having Cackle and other small thematic enhancements, the way most other classes do.

I also think it would be cool to have more class feats to choose from in general - as it is it's very flavorful and wicked, but it'd be nice to have some variety thrown in.

Paizo Employee Designer

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Hi, everyone! I'm seeing this discussion and a similar discussion in another thread, and I want to let you all know that Cackle is something we looked at a lot while building the class, and it's something we're very open to tweaking further based on your feedback. We want to make it a fun ability that works well with the class, and it's clear that we haven't quite hit that mark yet, so we'll definitely be making some changes.


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Lyz Liddell wrote:
Hi, everyone! I'm seeing this discussion and a similar discussion in another thread, and I want to let you all know that Cackle is something we looked at a lot while building the class, and it's something we're very open to tweaking further based on your feedback. We want to make it a fun ability that works well with the class, and it's clear that we haven't quite hit that mark yet, so we'll definitely be making some changes.

My own input is that for many other classes this level 1 ability (or the ability presented the same way as Cackle is) is a defining, niche-carving ability. Divine Font lets Clerics heal very well. Arcane Bond lets Wizards be flexible with their spell list. Flurry of Blows allows Monks to be really mobile. Barbarians Rage and Rangers Hunt Prey and Champions have a reaction to punish enemies and protect allies...

The Witch Cackle isn't on that level right now, and doesn't carve a niche that I would say most players not frequenting the forums care about. If I told one of my newer players that Cackle sustains a spell.... except without the concentrate tag! I'd get a blank stare

If it instead pushed the envelope on hexes like a Wizard's bond helps them with casting, then it'd be more relevant to everyday Witchery, I think. Especially if a Witch gets to add interesting riders to their Cackle and make sustaining spells and hexes a big part of what sets the class apart


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Rysky wrote:
Gaterie wrote:
does anyone know what cackle do ? It looks like it removes the "concentration" tag from the "sustain a spell" action but it retains the only disadvantage of this tag, while adding two other tags with their own disadvantages. I get this ability for free, and yet it feels like a punishment. Why does this ability exist?
Avoiding Attacks of Opportunity... is a punishment?

lol. You almost killed me.

You're right, the ability can be very useful if I'm in melee range of a level 10+ fighter with the disruptive stance feat and with the stance activated and I recognize the stance with my witch who doesn't have any knowledge about stances and at the same time I know for sure this fighter doesn't have any ability granting a reaction against sonic or auditory effects and the most urgent thing I have to do is to sustain a spell instead of moving away from the fighter (who's in melee range of my squishy witch, but who cares ?).

Such a common situation. In 30 years of RPG, I have seen this situation a grand total of 0 times. And I expect this number to stay the same during the next 60 years.

Maybe someone can create a more common situation where the ability does something ? Something happening once every 20 years of play maybe ?


A multitude few high-level monsters have attacks of opportunity and are also capable of hitting on concentrate actions, and cackling does allow you to sustain and avoid taking a hit in those circumstances. Not saying the feature is in a good spot, but your hyperbole is entirely slightly unwarranted.

Edit: edited because I was incorrect.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Gaterie wrote:
Such a common situation. In 30 years of RPG, I have seen this situation a grand total of 0 times. And I expect this number to stay the same during the next 60 years.

... Second Edition has only been out three months...

Silver Crusade

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Henro wrote:

A multitude few high-level monsters have attacks of opportunity and are also capable of hitting on concentrate actions, and cackling does allow you to sustain and avoid taking a hit in those circumstances. Not saying the feature is in a good spot, but your hyperbole is entirely slightly unwarranted.

Edit: edited because I was incorrect.

And we’re getting a whole new Bestiary in a few months as well.


Henro wrote:

A multitude few high-level monsters have attacks of opportunity and are also capable of hitting on concentrate actions, and cackling does allow you to sustain and avoid taking a hit in those circumstances. Not saying the feature is in a good spot, but your hyperbole is entirely slightly unwarranted.

Edit: edited because I was incorrect.

One of the witch hexes requires a flat check on any action with the concentration trait.


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Rysky wrote:
Henro wrote:

A multitude few high-level monsters have attacks of opportunity and are also capable of hitting on concentrate actions, and cackling does allow you to sustain and avoid taking a hit in those circumstances. Not saying the feature is in a good spot, but your hyperbole is entirely slightly unwarranted.

Edit: edited because I was incorrect.

And we’re getting a whole new Bestiary in a few months as well.

By why would you expect the percentage of monsters with AoO triggered by concentrate actions would increase? If anything, I would expect it to decrease since additional monsters tend to have more niche abilities than earlier monsters as the lifespan of games stretches on and AoO is kinda boilerplate.


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Does the witch need to lose cackle for their niche? Can it be something else?

Thoughts:
1) X times per day (or other limit), sacrifice a prepared spell to cast a hex heightened to the level of the sacrificed spell (flavor as a pact of paying/offering your stamina for aid from patron?)
2) X times per day, you may invoke the aid of your patron. Your familiar casts a hex you know for free, and sustains it as a free action each turn (or maybe its left to you to sustain?)

Arcane bond but for focus spells... although Oracle kind of does that with some of their feats?

Maybe you can take a hex on yourself to cast a hex on an opponent, and both sustain at the same time...? Though thats not really a witch deal I guess.

A way to spread a curse for a price? (Spell slots, more focus, take a condition? Have to spend whole turn sustaining?) The fluff being kind of... dont mess with a witch or you'll regret it? Straight up vengeance mode basically.

Maybe when a hex is maintained by cackling for at least X time, gain a benefit?

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Excaliburproxy wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Henro wrote:

A multitude few high-level monsters have attacks of opportunity and are also capable of hitting on concentrate actions, and cackling does allow you to sustain and avoid taking a hit in those circumstances. Not saying the feature is in a good spot, but your hyperbole is entirely slightly unwarranted.

Edit: edited because I was incorrect.

And we’re getting a whole new Bestiary in a few months as well.
By why would you expect the percentage of monsters with AoO triggered by concentrate actions would increase? If anything, I would expect it to decrease since additional monsters tend to have more niche abilities than earlier monsters as the lifespan of games stretches on and AoO is kinda boilerplate.

Percentage no. Actual numbers yes.


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Rysky wrote:
Excaliburproxy wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Henro wrote:

A multitude few high-level monsters have attacks of opportunity and are also capable of hitting on concentrate actions, and cackling does allow you to sustain and avoid taking a hit in those circumstances. Not saying the feature is in a good spot, but your hyperbole is entirely slightly unwarranted.

Edit: edited because I was incorrect.

And we’re getting a whole new Bestiary in a few months as well.
By why would you expect the percentage of monsters with AoO triggered by concentrate actions would increase? If anything, I would expect it to decrease since additional monsters tend to have more niche abilities than earlier monsters as the lifespan of games stretches on and AoO is kinda boilerplate.
Percentage no. Actual numbers yes.

My point is this: players will probably not see AoO triggered by concentration checks any more often than they do now.

So why does it matter that there will be more monsters? Henro/Gaterie's points still hold.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Excaliburproxy wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Excaliburproxy wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Henro wrote:

A multitude few high-level monsters have attacks of opportunity and are also capable of hitting on concentrate actions, and cackling does allow you to sustain and avoid taking a hit in those circumstances. Not saying the feature is in a good spot, but your hyperbole is entirely slightly unwarranted.

Edit: edited because I was incorrect.

And we’re getting a whole new Bestiary in a few months as well.
By why would you expect the percentage of monsters with AoO triggered by concentrate actions would increase? If anything, I would expect it to decrease since additional monsters tend to have more niche abilities than earlier monsters as the lifespan of games stretches on and AoO is kinda boilerplate.
Percentage no. Actual numbers yes.

My point is this: players will probably not see AoO triggered by concentration checks any more often than they do now.

So why does it matter that there will be more monsters? Henro/Gaterie's points still hold.

That’s an assumption you are having.


Rysky wrote:
Excaliburproxy wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Excaliburproxy wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Henro wrote:

A multitude few high-level monsters have attacks of opportunity and are also capable of hitting on concentrate actions, and cackling does allow you to sustain and avoid taking a hit in those circumstances. Not saying the feature is in a good spot, but your hyperbole is entirely slightly unwarranted.

Edit: edited because I was incorrect.

And we’re getting a whole new Bestiary in a few months as well.
By why would you expect the percentage of monsters with AoO triggered by concentrate actions would increase? If anything, I would expect it to decrease since additional monsters tend to have more niche abilities than earlier monsters as the lifespan of games stretches on and AoO is kinda boilerplate.
Percentage no. Actual numbers yes.

My point is this: players will probably not see AoO triggered by concentration checks any more often than they do now.

So why does it matter that there will be more monsters? Henro/Gaterie's points still hold.

That’s an assumption you are having.

To be more specific:

My assumption is that the amount of monster we will see w/ AoO will decrease, my statistical expectation will remain the same, and nothing to me says that the amount will increase unless this is specifically something that the designers want to change.

Edit to be a fancy boy:
My assumption => bayesian statistical expectation
My statistical expectation => frequentist statistical expectation


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Dubious Scholar wrote:

Does the witch need to lose cackle for their niche? Can it be something else?

Thoughts:
1) X times per day (or other limit), sacrifice a prepared spell to cast a hex heightened to the level of the sacrificed spell (flavor as a pact of paying/offering your stamina for aid from patron?)

I am very interested in this idea. It is my opinion that the Hexes should be the premier ability of the witch, so the ability to just cast one with a spell slot rather than be limited to your focus pool sounds great to me.


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Rysky wrote:
Gaterie wrote:
Such a common situation. In 30 years of RPG, I have seen this situation a grand total of 0 times. And I expect this number to stay the same during the next 60 years.
... Second Edition has only been out three months...

A similar situation may happen in many other games. A situation where my level 1 squishy caster is in melee range of a very specific kind of martial character of high level with a very specific ability and this ability is activated and my character knows it somehow and he knows the martial doesn't have any other very specific ability and my character must sustain another ability and stay in melee range.

This can happen in any game if you think about it.

Rysky wrote:
Excaliburproxy wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Henro wrote:

A multitude few high-level monsters have attacks of opportunity and are also capable of hitting on concentrate actions, and cackling does allow you to sustain and avoid taking a hit in those circumstances. Not saying the feature is in a good spot, but your hyperbole is entirely slightly unwarranted.

Edit: edited because I was incorrect.

And we’re getting a whole new Bestiary in a few months as well.
By why would you expect the percentage of monsters with AoO triggered by concentrate actions would increase? If anything, I would expect it to decrease since additional monsters tend to have more niche abilities than earlier monsters as the lifespan of games stretches on and AoO is kinda boilerplate.
Percentage no. Actual numbers yes.

The actual number of monsters/NPC with a reaction triggered by sonic or auditory ability will increase as well.

How do you recognize a creature with a special-snowfake-AoO triggered by concentration from a creature with a super-special-snowflake-AoO trigered by auditory effects?

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I have no idea what you’re trying to do with the first example.

And for the second one I can safely say there’s going to be more Reactions that trigger off spellcasting/sustaining than there is that specifically trigger off Sonic/auditory effects

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