Cackle? Please don't make me.


Witch Playtest

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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I for one love cackle thematically I just wish it was stronger. I wish like in 1E it sustained all Hexes in range. And I would be fine if this required a roll similar to Lingering Comps. performance Roll. And if it didn't extend all Hexes it would be nice if it could extend one effect for more than 1 round again like Lingering Comp.


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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I don't really like the flavour of cackle at all, ties into the very Wizard of Oz style witch and not at all to more Wiccan other witch interpretations.

I don't think it is a great part of the class and can't see what it has to do with the flavour of getting power from a pact with a mysterious entity.

On a mechanical note its so incredibly limited it may as not exist in 99% of situations compared to the standard sustain a spell action.

I would much rather a better standard core class ability not linked to cartoonish depictions of witches from old 1800's conservatism or silly things like Monty Python. There is already too much in the class that is geared to 'witches are hags that live in swamps.' And while I accept this is a playtest I with perhaps limited feats the number of feats available is similar to the current core wizard so I don't expect a huge increase on release.

If Cackle has to be kept can it at least be renamed something more neutral and less cartoonish? 'Chant' could be fine, mechanically the same but thematically far more neutral.

I am in the camp that it should perhaps be made a 1st level feat and made a little stronger so it remains a choice for those that want to play the 'hag' witch. I think in addition to sustain it should also allow some kind of demoralize check on an enemy, feels like it ties in well.

I actually think the core class ability should have more to do with the witches familiar, even a 'if your familiar is slain is reappears after a long rest' or some ritual to summon another. Right now slay a familiar and completely neuter the witch for a week. Wizards can buy another book or scrolls, witches are straight up locked out for a week.

Silver Crusade

Cyder wrote:
I don't really like the flavour of cackle at all, ties into the very Wizard of Oz style witch and not at all to more Wiccan other witch interpretations.
There's more than two types of Witch in folklore and mythology, and seeing as how Wiccan is a real world belief system I'd veer away from basing the class on it.
Quote:
On a mechanical note its so incredibly limited it may as not exist in 99% of situations compared to the standard sustain a spell action.
How is it more limited than the normal Sustain a spell activity? Other than when you're sneaking or in an area that's been silenced I don't see how.
Quote:
If Cackle has to be kept can it at least be renamed something more neutral and less cartoonish? 'Chant' could be fine, mechanically the same but thematically far more neutral.

While I disagree on the cartoonish characterization "Chant" is rather neat and allows for more flavoring while still keeping a steady indication of what the Witch is doing (Sustaining).


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Listen: I ain't no neopagan. Magic ain't real. That said, I just want to play grim-dark spooky witches. I want to play the kind of witches that Hellboy blasts apart with a big revolver and Jack Chick warns you about,


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Rysky wrote:
Cyder wrote:
I don't really like the flavour of cackle at all, ties into the very Wizard of Oz style witch and not at all to more Wiccan other witch interpretations.
There's more than two types of Witch in folklore and mythology, and seeing as how Wiccan is a real world belief system I'd veer away from basing the class on it.
Quote:
On a mechanical note its so incredibly limited it may as not exist in 99% of situations compared to the standard sustain a spell action.
How is it more limited than the normal Sustain a spell activity? Other than when you're sneaking or in an area that's been silenced I don't see how.
Quote:
If Cackle has to be kept can it at least be renamed something more neutral and less cartoonish? 'Chant' could be fine, mechanically the same but thematically far more neutral.

While I disagree on the cartoonish characterization "Chant" is rather neat and allows for more flavoring while still keeping a steady indication of what the Witch is doing (Sustaining).

My comment was not that it is more limited than sustain spell, its that in 99% of cases you may as well just use sustain spell, as in it adds pretty much nothing compared to the standard option to sustain a spell almost all the time.

I think taking in real world and other pop culture interpretations for the witch class is important. Wiccan is a valid an inspiration for a witch flavour as the Wicked Witch of the West is. Many of the existing classes have ties to real world concepts as do many of the existing gear and other items. Like most fantasy RPGs its a mix of the real and the fantastic in terms of flavour. Ruling it out seems a little silly.

Silver Crusade

It also doesn't cost anything, and removes the few Reactions that could stop you.

And taking in folklore and mythology is fine, but taking in a current and active belief system? Ehhh...

Liberty's Edge

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Excaliburproxy wrote:
Listen: I ain't no neopagan. Magic ain't real. That said, I just want to play grim-dark spooky witches. I want to play the kind of witches that Hellboy blasts apart with a big revolver and Jack Chick warns you about,

Speaking as a pagan, I actually think the PF1 Witch did an excellent job of walking the line between this and a more positive (if still obviously fantastical) portrayal. A player once asked me what class Mary Poppins would be in PF1, and I was able to say 'Witch' with basically no hesitation.

The fact that I could say that without irony in regards to a Class that has a 'Cook People' ability available says a lot about how wide a swath of 'witch' archetypes the PF1 Class encompassed.

Rysky wrote:
And taking in folklore and mythology is fine, but taking in a current and active belief system? Ehhh...

Every belief system is current for someone. I've mentioned before that I have a friend who sorta worships the Egyptian pantheon, and I certainly know people who believe in the fae. Treatment of anything from real world beliefs should be done respectfully, but you can't actually use myths and folklore and avoid using something someone believes in.

Which is not to say Wicca as a primary inspiration for Witches on Golarion makes a lot of sense to me (as it doesn't), just to note that taking inspiration from mythology cannot be completely divorced from real world beliefs about those mythologies.


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Lyz Liddell wrote:
Hi, everyone! I'm seeing this discussion and a similar discussion in another thread, and I want to let you all know that Cackle is something we looked at a lot while building the class, and it's something we're very open to tweaking further based on your feedback. We want to make it a fun ability that works well with the class, and it's clear that we haven't quite hit that mark yet, so we'll definitely be making some changes.

I'm just going to pop in to say that I'm opposed to Cackle being the baked-in, definitive Witch ability not on a mechanical but on an aesthetic level. I just don't want to have to play a character who audibly laughs; it limits my ability to choose how my PC acts and sounds. I played a half-dozen witches in P1e, and not a single one took Cackle; I could make that choice. Making it baked-in means I probably won't play the class at all in P2e.

As Cyder suggests above, I'd be okay with Chant, but I don't want to have to 'cackle,' either on a maniacal-Joker level or as a Beavis-and-Butthead chuckle. It doesn't fit my image of my Witch PCs, who were mostly of the "It's the quiet ones you need to worry about" variety. To point to a pop-culture reference, Willow and Tara never cackled.

It's like if the Wizard had a 1st-level class feature called Pointy Hat. I honestly don't care if Pointy Hat gives me + half my level to Reflex saves on Tuesdays from 3 to 3:45 AM or if it is an instant I-win button where rocks fall and all my enemies die, if I just don't want to play a character who wears a pointy hat.


Deadmanwalking wrote:
The fact that I could say that without irony in regards to a Class that has a 'Cook People' ability available says a lot about how wide a swath of 'witch' archetypes the PF1 Class encompassed.

Cook People is awesome. Don't knock it (and don't think too hard about where she keeps getting those sweets...I'm sure its fine)

Spoiler:
I have/had a witch in a Strange Aeons game that was going to take Cook People and definitely not tell the party where they came from. And that's with the GM narrating my healing as "feels bad, man." Because honestly why wouldn't I take Infernal Healing?


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Joana wrote:
Lyz Liddell wrote:
Hi, everyone! I'm seeing this discussion and a similar discussion in another thread, and I want to let you all know that Cackle is something we looked at a lot while building the class, and it's something we're very open to tweaking further based on your feedback. We want to make it a fun ability that works well with the class, and it's clear that we haven't quite hit that mark yet, so we'll definitely be making some changes.

I'm just going to pop in to say that I'm opposed to Cackle being the baked-in, definitive Witch ability not on a mechanical but on an aesthetic level. I just don't want to have to play a character who audibly laughs; it limits my ability to choose how my PC acts and sounds. I played a half-dozen witches in P1e, and not a single one took Cackle; I could make that choice. Making it baked-in means I probably won't play the class at all in P2e.

As Cyder suggests above, I'd be okay with Chant, but I don't want to have to 'cackle,' either on a maniacal-Joker level or as a Beavis-and-Butthead chuckle. It doesn't fit my image of my Witch PCs, who were mostly of the "It's the quiet ones you need to worry about" variety. To point to a pop-culture reference, Willow and Tara never cackled.

It's like if the Wizard had a 1st-level class feature called Pointy Hat. I honestly don't care if Pointy Hat gives me + half my level to Reflex saves on Tuesdays from 3 to 3:45 AM or if it is an instant I-win button where rocks fall and all my enemies die, if I just don't want to play a character who wears a pointy hat.

I could go for this. "Chant" and describe it as something like "chanting, cackling, or otherwise vocalizing to project your will and maintain your spell" Leave it wide open. A witch could be humming or whistling and it would count.

And then of course change the feat to something like "Whispered Will" and the description becomes that you've mastered projecting your intent and can sustain via Chant without making audible noise.

Liberty's Edge

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The always laughing witch in PF1 is goofy and annoying.


Pit fiends, mummy pharoahs, and certain fighters of 10th level or higher can use AoOs on concentrate actions. Are there any other situations where it matters whether a witch is cackling at the moment?


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What if... cackle was a two-action ability that could be taken after a successful use of a hex, and allowed you to use that hex again without waiting 10 minutes to regain focus?

Scarab Sages

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I’d be interested in one or two options with different traits. My cartomancer shuffles his deck to extend hexes. That could be the audible susurrus of the shuffle, the visual effect, or the act of manipulating his deck.

Paizo Employee

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Rysky wrote:
Gaterie wrote:
does anyone know what cackle do ? It looks like it removes the "concentration" tag from the "sustain a spell" action but it retains the only disadvantage of this tag, while adding two other tags with their own disadvantages. I get this ability for free, and yet it feels like a punishment. Why does this ability exist?
Avoiding Attacks of Opportunity... is a punishment?

Cackle also means witches can sustain spells even while fascinated or raging, which is a non-zero benefit, and that witches aren't as badly affected by spells like synesthesia, though I think that currently just means "synesthesia".

Grand Lodge Designer

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I removed DubiousScholar's duplicate post, but while I'm here, I want to remind everyone that we're all here to make this class better. We might have different perspectives about how to make that happen, and we're all coming from different levels of experience, but we're all working toward that same goal, so let's try to stay supportive and collaborative.


I retain my opinion that cackle being a reaction sustain with auditory traits that can be used when casting a non canyrip spell would be more thematic.

Rather than randomly cackling the cackle would always be punctuating a significant action.

As for the auditory traits rather than concentration, eh... making noise is more likely to get you in trouble than the incrrrreeeeedibly niche scenario where you want to maintain a spell but cannot concentrate.

Ribbon or not it sucks. I would simply sustain my spells 99% of the time instead.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
The Gleeful Grognard wrote:

As for the auditory traits rather than concentration, eh... making noise is more likely to get you in trouble than the incrrrreeeeedibly niche scenario where you want to maintain a spell but cannot concentrate.

This is a good point. If all casters started with Cackle, getting regular Sustain would be a big upgrade. Sustain during invisibility without giving away your position! Sustain spells during a fast encounter to take out the sentry!


Cyder wrote:

I don't really like the flavour of cackle at all, ties into the very Wizard of Oz style witch and not at all to more Wiccan other witch interpretations.

I don't think it is a great part of the class and can't see what it has to do with the flavour of getting power from a pact with a mysterious entity.

On a mechanical note its so incredibly limited it may as not exist in 99% of situations compared to the standard sustain a spell action.

I would much rather a better standard core class ability not linked to cartoonish depictions of witches from old 1800's conservatism or silly things like Monty Python. There is already too much in the class that is geared to 'witches are hags that live in swamps.' And while I accept this is a playtest I with perhaps limited feats the number of feats available is similar to the current core wizard so I don't expect a huge increase on release.

If Cackle has to be kept can it at least be renamed something more neutral and less cartoonish? 'Chant' could be fine, mechanically the same but thematically far more neutral.

I am in the camp that it should perhaps be made a 1st level feat and made a little stronger so it remains a choice for those that want to play the 'hag' witch. I think in addition to sustain it should also allow some kind of demoralize check on an enemy, feels like it ties in well.

I actually think the core class ability should have more to do with the witches familiar, even a 'if your familiar is slain is reappears after a long rest' or some ritual to summon another. Right now slay a familiar and completely neuter the witch for a week. Wizards can buy another book or scrolls, witches are straight up locked out for a week.

Preach!

Seriously,all good points, every one of them.


As-is, I'm kinda starting to feel like if the only rules text for Cackle was:

Cackle
You can laugh menacingly as you sustain your spells.

we would barely have a meaningfully different ability. My chief issue remains that the ability doesn't do much, but gives the impression that it does a lot due to the fairly convoluted language it uses.


Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
Dubious Scholar wrote:
Joana wrote:
Lyz Liddell wrote:
Hi, everyone! I'm seeing this discussion and a similar discussion in another thread, and I want to let you all know that Cackle is something we looked at a lot while building the class, and it's something we're very open to tweaking further based on your feedback. We want to make it a fun ability that works well with the class, and it's clear that we haven't quite hit that mark yet, so we'll definitely be making some changes.

I'm just going to pop in to say that I'm opposed to Cackle being the baked-in, definitive Witch ability not on a mechanical but on an aesthetic level. I just don't want to have to play a character who audibly laughs; it limits my ability to choose how my PC acts and sounds. I played a half-dozen witches in P1e, and not a single one took Cackle; I could make that choice. Making it baked-in means I probably won't play the class at all in P2e.

As Cyder suggests above, I'd be okay with Chant, but I don't want to have to 'cackle,' either on a maniacal-Joker level or as a Beavis-and-Butthead chuckle. It doesn't fit my image of my Witch PCs, who were mostly of the "It's the quiet ones you need to worry about" variety. To point to a pop-culture reference, Willow and Tara never cackled.

It's like if the Wizard had a 1st-level class feature called Pointy Hat. I honestly don't care if Pointy Hat gives me + half my level to Reflex saves on Tuesdays from 3 to 3:45 AM or if it is an instant I-win button where rocks fall and all my enemies die, if I just don't want to play a character who wears a pointy hat.

I could go for this. "Chant" and describe it as something like "chanting, cackling, or otherwise vocalizing to project your will and maintain your spell" Leave it wide open. A witch could be humming or whistling and it would count.

And then of course change the feat to something like "Whispered Will" and the description becomes that you've mastered projecting your intent and can sustain via Chant...

I like the general idea of Cackle, but have to admit that I do like the idea of it being renamed Chant. Its description can then include cackling as a key example, as it was suggested above. That clearly opens up the role playing aspects for this sort of player to include cackling Halloween witches, or even other individuals that might be considered more Mystic Monks as opposed to the martial monks, who use chants to maintain their mystical effects.

I have to admit however, as a relevant aside. I heard of a character concept, who had a witch character, who had the cackle hex, but instead of laughing, they requested the ability to flavor it as them playing a violin to extend the hex. I have to admit that I thought that was really cool concept, that I loved from a story standpoint. I recognize that would be really hard to incorporate, as it is now, since it would significantly change the effect of it. However, I thought it was worthwhile to point out that some archetype or other feat might provide alternate variations for it.

As to those who call for it to be made into a feat, I like it as a feature, in general. But see value in it being a feat, if witches got one at first level. Honestly, I wish every class had a class feat at first level. Even if certain class feats somehow started you down a path. Example. If Wizards had a class feat by default. However, School Specializations would have been 'feats' that you took at first level. Once you take a school specialization your path is set, you can't take another. That way everyone could have a class feat choice at first level. So if something like that can be done with witch, that might be better than reproducing the limitations in the core classes.

If thinking about ways to strengthen the ability if it were to become a feat. Would it be impossible to consider it acting as sustain action, but also allow that action to count as one action towards the casting of another spell that has a verbal component to it. That would allow witches to cast more spells more rapidly after one another and maintain them with less cost.

As to if it needs to be more powerful like that, I don't know, I haven't had a chance to spec out some character ideas to get a better feel for its limitations.


Anguish wrote:
What if... cackle was a two-action ability that could be taken after a successful use of a hex, and allowed you to use that hex again without waiting 10 minutes to regain focus?

Then you’d definitely have to change the name and make it default because that’s a mandatory class fest or lesson.

I love that.

What if it was that with a different name by default and your lesson dictated the method: Fate might be chant but Night might be cackle and another might be something else.

Then cackle can do something specific for the lesson, like creatures receive a -1 to Will saves against spells with the fear descriptor while hexed.

Then call it your lessons “inflection”.

Too much? Yeah fair enough...

Edit: maybe if you left it the same you could choose an inflection and a lesson at level 1, where it was a different form of sustain spell that got better over time? Chant, Cackle, Dance, Sing and you get things like Snicker for free at certain levels?


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Midnightoker wrote:
Anguish wrote:
What if... cackle was a two-action ability that could be taken after a successful use of a hex, and allowed you to use that hex again without waiting 10 minutes to regain focus?

Then you’d definitely have to change the name and make it default because that’s a mandatory class fest or lesson.

I love that.

Glad to offer an option. What's the name got to do with it though? I mean, I've read the threads about the flavor of the ability and I don't disagree, but - ironically - I thought my suggestion was the most in-flavor so far. As in, it's totally in-character to laugh one's head off when they successfully p0wn someone. <Grin>

But seriously, I'm not married to the name or fluff.

Call it Witch's Smugness and let the player figure out how that expresses itself.


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Haha I actually think smugness might be an undeniable commonality among witches! Dig that

Liberty's Edge

Petting your familiar like Klarion the Witch boy would be great and reflect the importance of the familiar.

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