paizo.com Recent Posts in +Level Bonusespaizo.com Recent Posts in +Level Bonuses2019-11-20T22:23:15Z2019-11-20T22:23:15ZRe: Forums: Rules Discussion: +Level BonusesVloraxhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42uam&page=3?Level-Bonuses#1422019-11-22T23:21:45Z2019-11-22T23:21:45Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Zamfield wrote:</div><blockquote><p> I do worry about math fatigue. It was already apparent during the playtest, and I expect that high level play will continue to exhibit this going forward. I also do not like how meaningless your bonuses are. All throughout the playtest, I would attempt to maximize some bonus, without checking the bestiary, and I would always be amazed at how easily the monsters evaded what I thought was my best. I feel like if I've made optimized picks and roll above a 15 on the d20 I should expect to connect, and sadly the level bonus to everything means that most of the time that isn't true and that I was way off in my expectations.</p>
<p></blockquote><p>Have you actually played since the play test? Adding level to bonus doesn't make a 15 on the d20 stop hitting at higher levels...
<p>Lets take an example. </p>
<p>Lvl 20 Cloistered Cleric.</p>
<p>Spell attack, +35
<br />
Spell DC, 45</p>
<p>Balor lvl 20.
<br />
AC 45, Fort +39, Ref +35, Will +34
<br />
So 10+ on the d20 hits on a spell attack, before any kind of debuff.</p>
<p>6+ saves vs Fort
<br />
10+ saves vs Ref
<br />
11+ saves vs Will</p>
<p>Baomel lvl 20
<br />
AC 48, Fort +36, Ref +30!, Will +34
<br />
slightly harder to hit(13+) with spell attacks but weak reflex</p>
<p>Ancient Red Dragon lvl 19
<br />
AC 45, Fort +35, Ref +32, Will +35
<br />
10+ hits on everything...</p>
<p>Grim Reaper lvl 21!
<br />
AC 47, Fort +37, Ref +41, Will +38
<br />
12+ hits, saves 8+, 3+, 7+ </p>
<p>Looks like a 15+ on the d20 hits just fine.</p>Zamfield wrote:I do worry about math fatigue. It was already apparent during the playtest, and I expect that high level play will continue to exhibit this going forward. I also do not like how meaningless your bonuses are. All throughout the playtest, I would attempt to maximize some bonus, without checking the bestiary, and I would always be amazed at how easily the monsters evaded what I thought was my best. I feel like if I've made optimized picks and roll above a 15 on the d20 I should...Vlorax2019-11-22T23:21:45ZRe: Forums: Rules Discussion: +Level BonusesZamfieldhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42uam&page=3?Level-Bonuses#1412019-11-22T21:09:29Z2019-11-22T21:09:29Z<p>I do worry about math fatigue. It was already apparent during the playtest, and I expect that high level play will continue to exhibit this going forward. I also do not like how meaningless your bonuses are. All throughout the playtest, I would attempt to maximize some bonus, without checking the bestiary, and I would always be amazed at how easily the monsters evaded what I thought was my best. I feel like if I've made optimized picks and roll above a 15 on the d20 I should expect to connect, and sadly the level bonus to everything means that most of the time that isn't true and that I was way off in my expectations.</p>
<p>I do appreciate how this opened up more room for designing challenging monsters, but as a player, I don't know what level the minions and big bad were, so I don't know that I should feel lucky I survived or even realize that I can "dance through combat with style" because the monsters are below me level. All I know is that I rolled a 17, and that I have to ask the GM if that hit, because I honestly don't know if it should or not.</p>
<p>At that point I might as well not do the math and just announce raw d20 results. If the encounter is "on level" the bonuses and DCs cancel each other out for the most part. level +2, yeah, anything below 15 won't ever hit, moving on to the next player's roll, rinse and repeat.</p>
<p>I don't think that the PF1 or 5e system is any better, but I do think that this system has made it rather impossible to know when your bonus is actually good or your check is likely to succeed.</p>
<p>I also feel like the way that it makes lower level challenges irrelevant means I'm never going to face that horde, or run into a level 2 hazard after I've reached level 5. Instead all the challenges published will just continue to grow along with your level and from one session to the next I'll be asking did a 24 succeed?, did a 26 succeed?, did a 29 succeed? on the same die roll! I'm unlikely to be stopped by a locked passage that I could easily crit succeed on picking, because the module author won't put it in my way.</p>I do worry about math fatigue. It was already apparent during the playtest, and I expect that high level play will continue to exhibit this going forward. I also do not like how meaningless your bonuses are. All throughout the playtest, I would attempt to maximize some bonus, without checking the bestiary, and I would always be amazed at how easily the monsters evaded what I thought was my best. I feel like if I've made optimized picks and roll above a 15 on the d20 I should expect to...Zamfield2019-11-22T21:09:29ZRe: Forums: Rules Discussion: +Level BonusesTemperanshttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42uam&page=3?Level-Bonuses#1402019-11-21T23:15:17Z2019-11-21T23:15:17Z<p>I was thinking more like: A dragon attacks the town and the party happens to not be within breath range. Of course they wont survive an actual fight but that's why it's an extreme encounter. They are lucky to be alive to help with the fire.</p>I was thinking more like: A dragon attacks the town and the party happens to not be within breath range. Of course they wont survive an actual fight but that's why it's an extreme encounter. They are lucky to be alive to help with the fire.Temperans2019-11-21T23:15:17ZRe: Forums: Rules Discussion: +Level BonusesEdiwirhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42uam&page=3?Level-Bonuses#1392019-11-22T10:27:27Z2019-11-21T21:38:21Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Temperans wrote:</div><blockquote>As for the lv/2 having a +/-8 difference, the effect of it is that a lv+8 dragon who at first was a nearly impossible task can be fought on equal grounds in 8 lvs, </blockquote><p>Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha<b>no.</b>
<p>You can tweak level and change the math however you want, a lv+8 dragon will kill the whole party without even bothering.
<br />
Unless you think lv7 PCs can take 16d6 (average 56) breaths as an opener and still pat themselves in the back saying “yeah we can do this if we work together”.</p>
<p>Hit points are still a thing. This isn't "nearly impossible" in the way lv+4 is in the regular game, this is "...so I guess we're retconning this?" levels of GM mistake.</p>
<p>Once again, more slowly:
<br />
You're not going to get a wider encounter range.
<br />
You don't actually get a much wider encounter range in 5e either, at least upward - damage and hp limit that. You might get to use a horde if there's no spellcasters.
<br />
You're just playing with less variance within that range.</p>Temperans wrote:As for the lv/2 having a +/-8 difference, the effect of it is that a lv+8 dragon who at first was a nearly impossible task can be fought on equal grounds in 8 lvs,
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahano. You can tweak level and change the math however you want, a lv+8 dragon will kill the whole party without even bothering.
Unless you think lv7 PCs can take 16d6 (average 56) breaths as an opener and still pat themselves in the back saying “yeah we can do this if we work...Ediwir2019-11-21T21:38:21ZRe: Forums: Rules Discussion: +Level Bonuseskrazmuzehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42uam&page=3?Level-Bonuses#1382019-11-21T17:46:09Z2019-11-21T17:41:52Z<p>Your final adventure battle is basically what chapter 3 of Plaguestone is.</p>
<p>A barrack full of orcs, their chief and a hunter sniper. Then a fort full of alchemical minions in each room designed to wear you down until you get to the boss who is only buying time for their minion to destroy the town. </p>
<p>Not that hard to find 10m breaks in such a crawl, get something back but not everything so it still felt like a dangerous. But sleeping it off every fight just is not going to work out well.</p>
<p>The only difference is the enemies are compressed into the PF2e viable range. It just makes more sense that the adventure boss is only a few levels above you. The game design is a perfect fit for the adventure path structure of a few levels at a time, or the pathfinder society oneshots. Why would the mid level campaign boss waste their time on minion adventures doing what the lacky guards in town do not want to do?.</p>
<p>The narrative structure of taking a breather is straight out of every action movie. It makes the bursts that much more cinematic if there is a lull. Die Hard and all its sequels are this very thing.</p>Your final adventure battle is basically what chapter 3 of Plaguestone is.
A barrack full of orcs, their chief and a hunter sniper. Then a fort full of alchemical minions in each room designed to wear you down until you get to the boss who is only buying time for their minion to destroy the town.
Not that hard to find 10m breaks in such a crawl, get something back but not everything so it still felt like a dangerous. But sleeping it off every fight just is not going to work out well.
The...krazmuze2019-11-21T17:41:52ZRe: Forums: Rules Discussion: +Level BonusesTemperanshttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42uam&page=3?Level-Bonuses#1372019-11-21T17:28:19Z2019-11-21T17:28:19Z<p>Not if the goal is to fight small groups of the army at a time as you try to reach the leader. But want the army itself to not be affected by the PCs advance.</p>Not if the goal is to fight small groups of the army at a time as you try to reach the leader. But want the army itself to not be affected by the PCs advance.Temperans2019-11-21T17:28:19ZRe: Forums: Rules Discussion: +Level Bonusesthejeffhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42uam&page=3?Level-Bonuses#1362019-11-21T17:24:26Z2019-11-21T17:24:26Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">krazmuze wrote:</div><blockquote> If you want to face an army of kobolds you are much better off using mass combat rules </blockquote><p>Or revive something like the PF1 troop rules.krazmuze wrote:If you want to face an army of kobolds you are much better off using mass combat rules
Or revive something like the PF1 troop rules.thejeff2019-11-21T17:24:26ZRe: Forums: Rules Discussion: +Level Bonuseskrazmuzehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42uam&page=3?Level-Bonuses#1342019-11-21T16:48:56Z2019-11-21T16:48:56Z<p>If you want to face an army of kobolds you are much better off using mass combat rules</p>If you want to face an army of kobolds you are much better off using mass combat ruleskrazmuze2019-11-21T16:48:56ZRe: Forums: Rules Discussion: +Level BonusesTemperanshttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42uam&page=3?Level-Bonuses#1332019-11-21T09:29:14Z2019-11-21T09:28:16Z<p>That's 1 way to use the +/-8. But, it's also the most extreme and more for specific types of games, where you do want to face the army of kobolds at some point (maybe final battle?)</p>
<p>In a more reasonable game you can encounter the Lv+8 dragon at the start of the game and narrowly escape to latter face the dragon again and finally best it. Then 3 levels later you can be fighting a lv+4 Enemy that has some Lv-3 dragons under his control with a handful of lv-5 mooks.</p>
<p>Which also means you can design entire areas as a single encounter, say a Fort of dark elves with many lv-8 mooks keeping guard, some lv-5 as commanders, a group of elite on lv enemies surrounding a lv+2 (or lv+4) Boss; and then a lv+5 secret boss.</p>That's 1 way to use the +/-8. But, it's also the most extreme and more for specific types of games, where you do want to face the army of kobolds at some point (maybe final battle?)
In a more reasonable game you can encounter the Lv+8 dragon at the start of the game and narrowly escape to latter face the dragon again and finally best it. Then 3 levels later you can be fighting a lv+4 Enemy that has some Lv-3 dragons under his control with a handful of lv-5 mooks.
Which also means you can...Temperans2019-11-21T09:28:16ZRe: Forums: Rules Discussion: +Level Bonuseskrazmuzehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42uam&page=3?Level-Bonuses#1322019-11-21T06:16:27Z2019-11-21T06:16:27Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Temperans wrote:</div><blockquote><br />
<br />
Currently a lv+4 dragon is nearly impossible task that 8 lvs later becomes a mook. </blockquote><p>I think somewhere in the book it says if you play every week for four hours you should expect to level up once a month. So my opinion is that boss to mook viability over 8 months is rather reasonable, do you really need creatures to be viable for the entire campaign of two years? I really do not want to be wasting time on kobold armies at lvl 20 when I was sweeping the floor with them two years ago. I want to fight ancient dragons not the same young dragons.Temperans wrote:Currently a lv+4 dragon is nearly impossible task that 8 lvs later becomes a mook.
I think somewhere in the book it says if you play every week for four hours you should expect to level up once a month. So my opinion is that boss to mook viability over 8 months is rather reasonable, do you really need creatures to be viable for the entire campaign of two years? I really do not want to be wasting time on kobold armies at lvl 20 when I was sweeping the floor with them two years...krazmuze2019-11-21T06:16:27ZRe: Forums: Rules Discussion: +Level Bonuseskrazmuzehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42uam&page=3?Level-Bonuses#1312019-11-21T06:10:32Z2019-11-21T06:08:29Z<p>Object oriented keywords that codify rules and make it great for computer assist - actually more useable in hyperlink than in a book? That is a PF2e design feature taken straight from 4e. It is even more useable now than then, because everyone has a phone to look up rules with, and virtual tabletops are reselling the books in digital form specifically for playing it like a turn-based CPRG with lots of automation. At release one of the designers was saying how great an engine PF2e would be for cRPG (specifically mentioning how much better it would work than the recent cRPG PF1 game)</p>Object oriented keywords that codify rules and make it great for computer assist - actually more useable in hyperlink than in a book? That is a PF2e design feature taken straight from 4e. It is even more useable now than then, because everyone has a phone to look up rules with, and virtual tabletops are reselling the books in digital form specifically for playing it like a turn-based CPRG with lots of automation. At release one of the designers was saying how great an engine PF2e would be for...krazmuze2019-11-21T06:08:29ZRe: Forums: Rules Discussion: +Level BonusesRyskyhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42uam&page=3?Level-Bonuses#1302019-11-21T14:40:53Z2019-11-21T06:05:23Z<p>I'm pretty sure that would be the case with any system that had levels in it.</p>I'm pretty sure that would be the case with any system that had levels in it.Rysky2019-11-21T06:05:23ZRe: Forums: Rules Discussion: +Level BonusesTemperanshttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42uam&page=3?Level-Bonuses#1292019-11-21T05:54:02Z2019-11-21T05:54:02Z<p>Well that is either you are misremembering the person or they changed their tastes (which can happen in 10 years). Also having not read the 4e rules, it seems like a big problem with it wasnt necessarily that any given given rule was bad, but the combination and presentation were; doesnt help 4e was meant to be computer assisted.</p>
<p>•••••••••••••••
<br />
As for the lv/2 having a +/-8 difference, the effect of it is that a lv+8 dragon who at first was a nearly impossible task can be fought on equal grounds in 8 lvs, and by lv 16 he can be fought as a mook for the latest BBEG.</p>
<p>Currently a lv+4 dragon is nearly impossible task that 8 lvs later becomes a mook.</p>Well that is either you are misremembering the person or they changed their tastes (which can happen in 10 years). Also having not read the 4e rules, it seems like a big problem with it wasnt necessarily that any given given rule was bad, but the combination and presentation were; doesnt help 4e was meant to be computer assisted.
***************
As for the lv/2 having a +/-8 difference, the effect of it is that a lv+8 dragon who at first was a nearly impossible task can be fought on equal...Temperans2019-11-21T05:54:02ZRe: Forums: Rules Discussion: +Level BonusesEdiwirhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42uam&page=3?Level-Bonuses#1282019-11-21T05:50:10Z2019-11-21T05:50:10Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">krazmuze wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Ediwir wrote:</div><blockquote><p> Paizo hasn't stated how the GMG's "remove level" will work. Absolute level removal isn't new, I remember bringing it up during late playtest, but never as a serious proposal - it feels too unnatural and weird, even if it mathematically works.
</p>
As for making monsters effective across more levels... threatening, perhaps. Effective, no. </blockquote>But you can take a really good guess, because weak and elite templates are showing how they do +/- 2 level already </blockquote><p>It's closer to +/- 1ish levels, really. If you want to shift 2 levels, you need to make a custom adjustment - double elite and double weak exceed that target.
</p>
...yeah I worked with it quite a bit, would love if it was more reliable, but that's not the case...</p>
<div class="messageboard-quotee">krazmuze wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">thejeff wrote:</div><blockquote>I've long been amused by this whole line of argument because I remember all the same arguments here during the 5E playtest about how bounded accuracy would kill the game by flattening it out so much. </blockquote>Not nearly as amusing hearing PF1e touting how great some new feature of PF2e is and they are switching systems because it is so great, yet if they walked back a decade you would find that same person saying how 4e killed D&D - even though that is where that 'new' PF2e subsystem comes from! </blockquote><p>Press X to doubt.
</p>
There were good points in 4e's math - •math•. The game itself was entirely off, and that is in large part due to the complete muddiness of the caster/martial differentiation. Everyone felt like having the same stuff, to the point where some spells were just reflavoured bows, and somehow a fighter could run out of muscles. THAT is what people abhorred.</p>
<p>4e was, to reuse an old line, "not badly made, just disgusting". Remember D&D Tiny Adventures? Best D&D videogame ever, and it was in 4e. It was a good videogame, but not an RPG.</p>
<p>2e still has martials and casters. Classes still give you different things. We're still playing a TTRPG.</p>krazmuze wrote:Ediwir wrote:Paizo hasn't stated how the GMG's "remove level" will work. Absolute level removal isn't new, I remember bringing it up during late playtest, but never as a serious proposal - it feels too unnatural and weird, even if it mathematically works.
As for making monsters effective across more levels... threatening, perhaps. Effective, no.
But you can take a really good guess, because weak and elite templates are showing how they do +/- 2 level already It's closer to...Ediwir2019-11-21T05:50:10ZRe: Forums: Rules Discussion: +Level Bonuseskrazmuzehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42uam&page=3?Level-Bonuses#1272019-11-20T22:54:38Z2019-11-20T22:54:38Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">thejeff wrote:</div><blockquote>I've long been amused by this whole line of argument because I remember all the same arguments here during the 5E playtest about how bounded accuracy would kill the game by flattening it out so much. </blockquote><p>Not nearly as amusing hearing PF1e touting how great some new feature of PF2e is and they are switching systems because it is so great, yet if they walked back a decade you would find that same person saying how 4e killed D&D - even though that is where that 'new' PF2e subsystem comes from!thejeff wrote:I've long been amused by this whole line of argument because I remember all the same arguments here during the 5E playtest about how bounded accuracy would kill the game by flattening it out so much.
Not nearly as amusing hearing PF1e touting how great some new feature of PF2e is and they are switching systems because it is so great, yet if they walked back a decade you would find that same person saying how 4e killed D&D - even though that is where that 'new' PF2e subsystem...krazmuze2019-11-20T22:54:38ZRe: Forums: Rules Discussion: +Level BonusesClaxonhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42uam&page=3?Level-Bonuses#1262019-11-22T20:41:12Z2019-11-20T21:56:09Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">thejeff wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">krazmuze wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Duskreign wrote:</div><blockquote> I find too many people theorycraft without actually trying things. PF2 is a great example of people having many ideas before even giving the game a chance. </blockquote><p>A lot of that is migration from 5e that thinks the game should be balanced the same way as the one they are coming from, without recognizing the flaws that system has. It requires understanding how the math while simple to 'fix' has a huge impact on encounter balance and bestiary changing how the game itself plays
<p>Don't need to try deleveled myself because I already did that for five years....I know the cons outweigh the pros for me.</p>
<p>However if I was porting a 5e adventure for sure I will do the gamemastery remove level otherwise it will be too much work to redesign monsters and rebalance encounters. There are many adventures there that are written assuming +/-2 PC level variance for doing encounters is fine - but that swing would be trivial to deadly in PF2e. </blockquote>I've long been amused by this whole line of argument because I remember all the same arguments here during the 5E playtest about how bounded accuracy would kill the game by flattening it out so much. </blockquote><p>I'm not sure exactly what you mean by this, but certainly bounded accuracy a la 5E has a very different feel to it. I agree with krazmuze that changing Pathfinder by removing level from the calculation of...basically everything would make the game very flat. But for <b>me</b> it would kill the game. It would destroy any real semblance of character progression. Heck, I'm not even convinced I like PF2 yet because of how much they tightened up the math from PF1.
<p>In PF1 my characters got better at the things they focused on. Substantially better. My progression felt meaningful, even if it was mostly just numbers, because I could swing my sword and hit 75-85% of the time. My damage grew to prodigious amount. I felt truly powerful.</p>
<p>I still haven't hit that feeling in PF2...and while I'm still giving it a chance it still doesn't feel like I'm progressing substantially enough, because the enemies are progressing at very close to the same rate. </p>
<p>I don't just want to increase 1 for 1 at each level with the enemy, because that's doesn't feel like progression. That's simply parity with monsters that are higher level, and they're only higher level because the game is built on the premise of having progression. </p>
<p>But if I'm honest, I still don't really feel like my PF2 characters have substantial enough progression, but I'm hoping time will change that.</p>thejeff wrote:krazmuze wrote: Duskreign wrote: I find too many people theorycraft without actually trying things. PF2 is a great example of people having many ideas before even giving the game a chance.
A lot of that is migration from 5e that thinks the game should be balanced the same way as the one they are coming from, without recognizing the flaws that system has. It requires understanding how the math while simple to 'fix' has a huge impact on encounter balance and bestiary changing how...Claxon2019-11-20T21:56:09ZRe: Forums: Rules Discussion: +Level Bonusesthejeffhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42uam&page=3?Level-Bonuses#1252019-11-20T21:25:16Z2019-11-20T21:25:16Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">krazmuze wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Duskreign wrote:</div><blockquote> I find too many people theorycraft without actually trying things. PF2 is a great example of people having many ideas before even giving the game a chance. </blockquote><p>A lot of that is migration from 5e that thinks the game should be balanced the same way as the one they are coming from, without recognizing the flaws that system has. It requires understanding how the math while simple to 'fix' has a huge impact on encounter balance and bestiary changing how the game itself plays
<p>Don't need to try deleveled myself because I already did that for five years....I know the cons outweigh the pros for me.</p>
<p>However if I was porting a 5e adventure for sure I will do the gamemastery remove level otherwise it will be too much work to redesign monsters and rebalance encounters. There are many adventures there that are written assuming +/-2 PC level variance for doing encounters is fine - but that swing would be trivial to deadly in PF2e. </blockquote><p>I've long been amused by this whole line of argument because I remember all the same arguments here during the 5E playtest about how bounded accuracy would kill the game by flattening it out so much.krazmuze wrote:Duskreign wrote: I find too many people theorycraft without actually trying things. PF2 is a great example of people having many ideas before even giving the game a chance.
A lot of that is migration from 5e that thinks the game should be balanced the same way as the one they are coming from, without recognizing the flaws that system has. It requires understanding how the math while simple to 'fix' has a huge impact on encounter balance and bestiary changing how the game...thejeff2019-11-20T21:25:16ZRe: Forums: Rules Discussion: +Level Bonuseskrazmuzehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42uam&page=3?Level-Bonuses#1242019-11-20T21:25:09Z2019-11-20T21:25:09Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Ediwir wrote:</div><blockquote><p> Paizo hasn't stated how the GMG's "remove level" will work. Absolute level removal isn't new, I remember bringing it up during late playtest, but never as a serious proposal - it feels too unnatural and weird, even if it mathematically works.
</p>
As for making monsters effective across more levels... threatening, perhaps. Effective, no. </blockquote><p>But you can take a really good guess, because weak and elite templates are showing how they do +/- 2 level alreadyEdiwir wrote:Paizo hasn't stated how the GMG's "remove level" will work. Absolute level removal isn't new, I remember bringing it up during late playtest, but never as a serious proposal - it feels too unnatural and weird, even if it mathematically works.
As for making monsters effective across more levels... threatening, perhaps. Effective, no.
But you can take a really good guess, because weak and elite templates are showing how they do +/- 2 level alreadykrazmuze2019-11-20T21:25:09ZRe: Forums: Rules Discussion: +Level Bonuseskrazmuzehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42uam&page=3?Level-Bonuses#1232019-11-20T21:13:26Z2019-11-20T21:12:44Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Temperans wrote:</div><blockquote><br />
<br />
Having said that. I would love to hear the experience of someone who ran a game with 1/2 level (or some other version). It still sounds to me like that might be the best solution, letting the players see some number increase, but not making it as bad as +level. Any number bloat could them come from abilities or items (maybe with a bit higher bonus) making things slightly more variable and unpredictable </blockquote><p>The version you are looking for is D&D 4e...not saying that is a bad thing. The PF2e designers are from 4e after all and they already borrowed a lot of things, would be interesting to get their take on why not lvl/2 was considered.
<p>My personal take on it is that +/-4 levels is plenty for viability of a given monster. Half level makes that +/-8 levels.</p>
<p>The problem in applying any level changes to PF2e is the dependence on crit ranges on level. Just play PF2e removing the crit ranges and sticking to old school nat 1/20 - it feels very different. Boss fights are much more difficult with +level, the odds of them critting are multiplied significantly, as are the PC odds of fumbling.</p>Temperans wrote:Having said that. I would love to hear the experience of someone who ran a game with 1/2 level (or some other version). It still sounds to me like that might be the best solution, letting the players see some number increase, but not making it as bad as +level. Any number bloat could them come from abilities or items (maybe with a bit higher bonus) making things slightly more variable and unpredictable
The version you are looking for is D&D 4e...not saying that is a bad...krazmuze2019-11-20T21:12:44ZRe: Forums: Rules Discussion: +Level Bonuseskrazmuzehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42uam&page=3?Level-Bonuses#1222019-11-20T21:21:29Z2019-11-20T21:04:50Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Duskreign wrote:</div><blockquote> I find too many people theorycraft without actually trying things. PF2 is a great example of people having many ideas before even giving the game a chance. </blockquote><p>A lot of that is migration from 5e that thinks the game should be balanced the same way as the one they are coming from, without recognizing the flaws that system has. It requires understanding how the math while simple to 'fix' has a huge impact on encounter balance and bestiary changing how the game itself plays
<p>Don't need to try deleveled myself because I already did that for five years....I know the cons outweigh the pros for me.</p>
<p>However if I was porting a 5e adventure for sure I will do the gamemastery remove level otherwise it will be too much work to redesign monsters and rebalance encounters. There are many adventures there that are written assuming +/-2 PC level variance for doing encounters is fine - but that swing would be trivial to deadly in PF2e.</p>Duskreign wrote:I find too many people theorycraft without actually trying things. PF2 is a great example of people having many ideas before even giving the game a chance.
A lot of that is migration from 5e that thinks the game should be balanced the same way as the one they are coming from, without recognizing the flaws that system has. It requires understanding how the math while simple to 'fix' has a huge impact on encounter balance and bestiary changing how the game itself plays Don't...krazmuze2019-11-20T21:04:50ZRe: Forums: Rules Discussion: +Level BonusesEdiwirhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42uam&page=3?Level-Bonuses#1212019-11-20T20:53:35Z2019-11-20T20:53:35Z<p>Paizo hasn't stated how the GMG's "remove level" will work. Absolute level removal isn't new, I remember bringing it up during late playtest, but never as a serious proposal - it feels too unnatural and weird, even if it mathematically works.
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As for making monsters effective across more levels... threatening, perhaps. Effective, no.</p>Paizo hasn't stated how the GMG's "remove level" will work. Absolute level removal isn't new, I remember bringing it up during late playtest, but never as a serious proposal - it feels too unnatural and weird, even if it mathematically works.
As for making monsters effective across more levels... threatening, perhaps. Effective, no.Ediwir2019-11-20T20:53:35ZRe: Forums: Rules Discussion: +Level Bonusesthejeffhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42uam&page=3?Level-Bonuses#1202019-11-20T16:38:47Z2019-11-20T16:38:47Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Duskreign wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">thejeff wrote:</div><blockquote>That's not how removing +level is likely to work in the GMG though. That seems like it will be "remove each thing's level from itself", not "remove the PC level... </blockquote><p>I'm not so sure this is correct. I would think Paizo would still want to keep the integrity of the game in regards to how crit percentages scale up and down with level variance between enemies. Granted, they may have a different way of doing it, but whatever answer Paizo uses still needs to keep in mind level variance for crit success/failure reasons.
<p>We will know in a few months how they do it. </blockquote><p>Well, most of the early complaints and requests were for that version - specifically to make monsters effective opponents across more levels.
<p>This approach you're suggesting is relatively new, I think.</p>Duskreign wrote:thejeff wrote:That's not how removing +level is likely to work in the GMG though. That seems like it will be "remove each thing's level from itself", not "remove the PC level...
I'm not so sure this is correct. I would think Paizo would still want to keep the integrity of the game in regards to how crit percentages scale up and down with level variance between enemies. Granted, they may have a different way of doing it, but whatever answer Paizo uses still needs to keep in...thejeff2019-11-20T16:38:47ZRe: Forums: Rules Discussion: +Level BonusesMatthew Downiehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42uam&page=3?Level-Bonuses#1192019-11-20T16:26:35Z2019-11-20T16:26:35Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Duskreign wrote:</div><blockquote> I would think Paizo would still want to keep the integrity of the game in regards to how crit percentages scale up and down with level variance between enemies.</blockquote><p>The whole point of removing +level (for most of the people who want to do it) is to remove 'level variance' from the game. Getting rid of the big numbers is just a secondary benefit.Duskreign wrote:I would think Paizo would still want to keep the integrity of the game in regards to how crit percentages scale up and down with level variance between enemies.
The whole point of removing +level (for most of the people who want to do it) is to remove 'level variance' from the game. Getting rid of the big numbers is just a secondary benefit.Matthew Downie2019-11-20T16:26:35ZRe: Forums: Rules Discussion: +Level BonusesDuskreign (alias of Strachan Fireblade)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs42uam&page=3?Level-Bonuses#1182019-11-20T15:59:36Z2019-11-20T15:59:36Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">thejeff wrote:</div><blockquote>That's not how removing +level is likely to work in the GMG though. That seems like it will be "remove each thing's level from itself", not "remove the PC level... </blockquote><p>I'm not so sure this is correct. I would think Paizo would still want to keep the integrity of the game in regards to how crit percentages scale up and down with level variance between enemies. Granted, they may have a different way of doing it, but whatever answer Paizo uses still needs to keep in mind level variance for crit success/failure reasons.
<p>We will know in a few months how they do it.</p>thejeff wrote:That's not how removing +level is likely to work in the GMG though. That seems like it will be "remove each thing's level from itself", not "remove the PC level...
I'm not so sure this is correct. I would think Paizo would still want to keep the integrity of the game in regards to how crit percentages scale up and down with level variance between enemies. Granted, they may have a different way of doing it, but whatever answer Paizo uses still needs to keep in mind level...Duskreign (alias of Strachan Fireblade)2019-11-20T15:59:36ZRe: Forums: Rules Discussion: +Level BonusesDuskreign (alias of Strachan Fireblade)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs42uam&page=3?Level-Bonuses#1172019-11-20T15:56:24Z2019-11-20T15:56:24Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Gorbacz wrote:</div><blockquote> There was this "verily the +level treadmill, wrought, unnecessary, tacked on, will discard at earliest opportunity" fellow who was super active and then vanished into thin air, suddenly, like a candle on the wind. Shame, I'd love to hear his account on just how well did the discarding go. </blockquote><p>Well, I intend to at least try this out. I'm not opposed to the core game with the +level so don't think of me as hard core against the norm. It's just something I am willing to give a shot to see how it actually works. I find too many people theorycraft without actually trying things. PF2 is a great example of people having many ideas before even giving the game a chance.Gorbacz wrote:There was this "verily the +level treadmill, wrought, unnecessary, tacked on, will discard at earliest opportunity" fellow who was super active and then vanished into thin air, suddenly, like a candle on the wind. Shame, I'd love to hear his account on just how well did the discarding go.
Well, I intend to at least try this out. I'm not opposed to the core game with the +level so don't think of me as hard core against the norm. It's just something I am willing to give a shot to...Duskreign (alias of Strachan Fireblade)2019-11-20T15:56:24Z