paizo.com Recent Posts in Should the investigator be a rogue racket instead?paizo.com Recent Posts in Should the investigator be a rogue racket instead?2019-12-16T21:13:56Z2019-12-16T21:13:56ZRe: Forums: Investigator Playtest: Should the investigator be a rogue racket instead?Squiggithttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42u5u?Should-the-investigator-be-a-rogue-racket#352019-11-17T06:45:48Z2019-11-17T06:45:48Z<p>Maybe, apologies if that's the intent but it's something I see get brought up unironically much more than I'd like.</p>Maybe, apologies if that's the intent but it's something I see get brought up unironically much more than I'd like.Squiggit2019-11-17T06:45:48ZRe: Forums: Investigator Playtest: Should the investigator be a rogue racket instead?Deadmanwalkinghttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42u5u?Should-the-investigator-be-a-rogue-racket#342019-11-17T03:07:01Z2019-11-17T03:07:01Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Squiggit wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Alexander Augunas wrote:</div><blockquote> I think not, if only because the rogue is very hard-coded as a criminal</blockquote>It really isn't though. Nothing about the class necessitates it and this whole 'rogues must be criminals' meme is just stifling peoples creative freedom when it comes to character building. </blockquote><p>I agree with this entirely, but think Alexander Augunas is speaking a bit tongue in cheek here...Squiggit wrote:Alexander Augunas wrote: I think not, if only because the rogue is very hard-coded as a criminal
It really isn't though. Nothing about the class necessitates it and this whole 'rogues must be criminals' meme is just stifling peoples creative freedom when it comes to character building. I agree with this entirely, but think Alexander Augunas is speaking a bit tongue in cheek here...Deadmanwalking2019-11-17T03:07:01ZRe: Forums: Investigator Playtest: Should the investigator be a rogue racket instead?Squiggithttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42u5u?Should-the-investigator-be-a-rogue-racket#332019-11-17T18:15:03Z2019-11-17T02:41:20Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Alexander Augunas wrote:</div><blockquote> I think not, if only because the rogue is very hard-coded as a criminal</blockquote><p>It really isn't though. Nothing about the class necessitates it and this whole 'rogues must be criminals' meme is just stifling peoples creative freedom when it comes to character building.Alexander Augunas wrote:I think not, if only because the rogue is very hard-coded as a criminal
It really isn't though. Nothing about the class necessitates it and this whole 'rogues must be criminals' meme is just stifling peoples creative freedom when it comes to character building.Squiggit2019-11-17T02:41:20ZRe: Forums: Investigator Playtest: Should the investigator be a rogue racket instead?Nicolas Paradisehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42u5u?Should-the-investigator-be-a-rogue-racket#322019-11-17T02:30:09Z2019-11-17T02:30:09Z<p>No /10char</p>No /10charNicolas Paradise2019-11-17T02:30:09ZRe: Forums: Investigator Playtest: Should the investigator be a rogue racket instead?Ed Repperthttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42u5u?Should-the-investigator-be-a-rogue-racket#312019-11-16T05:08:44Z2019-11-16T05:08:44Z<p>I wonder how a dual-class rogue/investigator would do. Or fighter/investigator.</p>
<p>So many options, so little time. :-)</p>I wonder how a dual-class rogue/investigator would do. Or fighter/investigator.
So many options, so little time. :-)Ed Reppert2019-11-16T05:08:44ZRe: Forums: Investigator Playtest: Should the investigator be a rogue racket instead?Alexander Augunas (Contributor)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs42u5u?Should-the-investigator-be-a-rogue-racket#302019-11-16T04:40:17Z2019-11-16T04:40:17Z<p>I think not, if only because the rogue is very hard-coded as a criminal. Everything from the flavor to a ton of the ability names make the rogue sound like someone who is, at best, outside of the law.</p>
<p>The game needs a legal way to be a skill monkey. ;)</p>I think not, if only because the rogue is very hard-coded as a criminal. Everything from the flavor to a ton of the ability names make the rogue sound like someone who is, at best, outside of the law.
The game needs a legal way to be a skill monkey. ;)Alexander Augunas (Contributor)2019-11-16T04:40:17ZRe: Forums: Investigator Playtest: Should the investigator be a rogue racket instead?Ed Repperthttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42u5u?Should-the-investigator-be-a-rogue-racket#292019-11-16T03:18:05Z2019-11-16T03:18:05Z<p>Just watched the (recorded) Twitch stream from a while back about the Game Mastery Guide. Seems like there's gonna be some good stuff in there for Investigators, so I wouldn't dismiss the class just yet.</p>Just watched the (recorded) Twitch stream from a while back about the Game Mastery Guide. Seems like there's gonna be some good stuff in there for Investigators, so I wouldn't dismiss the class just yet.Ed Reppert2019-11-16T03:18:05ZRe: Forums: Investigator Playtest: Should the investigator be a rogue racket instead?Umbra Witchhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42u5u?Should-the-investigator-be-a-rogue-racket#282019-11-16T03:04:19Z2019-11-16T03:04:19Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">RexAliquid wrote:</div><blockquote><p> I would make the investigator a Ranger path, not a rogue racket.
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I guess that as a hybrid class, the investigator pulls enough from both to warrant being it's own class. </blockquote><p>Investigator makes a really nice hybrid class, but the combat is so lacking that I wouldn't choose it.
<p>My thoughts, the Investigator would be a cool de-buffing class, where the investigator looks at someone's weakness and exploits it for extra damage.</p>RexAliquid wrote:I would make the investigator a Ranger path, not a rogue racket.
I guess that as a hybrid class, the investigator pulls enough from both to warrant being it's own class.
Investigator makes a really nice hybrid class, but the combat is so lacking that I wouldn't choose it. My thoughts, the Investigator would be a cool de-buffing class, where the investigator looks at someone's weakness and exploits it for extra damage.Umbra Witch2019-11-16T03:04:19ZRe: Forums: Investigator Playtest: Should the investigator be a rogue racket instead?RexAliquid (alias of KingOfAnything)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs42u5u?Should-the-investigator-be-a-rogue-racket#272019-11-17T08:13:22Z2019-11-11T16:43:57Z<p>I would make the investigator a Ranger path, not a rogue racket.
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I guess that as a hybrid class, the investigator pulls enough from both to warrant being it's own class.</p>I would make the investigator a Ranger path, not a rogue racket.
I guess that as a hybrid class, the investigator pulls enough from both to warrant being it's own class.RexAliquid (alias of KingOfAnything)2019-11-11T16:43:57ZRe: Forums: Investigator Playtest: Should the investigator be a rogue racket instead?Cyderhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42u5u?Should-the-investigator-be-a-rogue-racket#262019-11-17T18:13:13Z2019-11-11T01:49:51Z<p>Investigator as it stands feels more like a rogue racket than its own thing. </p>
<p>Alternatively it could be an archetype easily enough. It already has an issue that its primary stat isn't used for much of the class features and skill checks are for everyone.</p>
<p>I think unless it gets some other unique baseline mechanics it fits better as an Int rogue racket or an archetype.</p>Investigator as it stands feels more like a rogue racket than its own thing.
Alternatively it could be an archetype easily enough. It already has an issue that its primary stat isn't used for much of the class features and skill checks are for everyone.
I think unless it gets some other unique baseline mechanics it fits better as an Int rogue racket or an archetype.Cyder2019-11-11T01:49:51ZRe: Forums: Investigator Playtest: Should the investigator be a rogue racket instead?Zwordsmanhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42u5u?Should-the-investigator-be-a-rogue-racket#252019-11-10T21:01:44Z2019-11-10T21:01:44Z<p>I'd actually rather love if they did the inspiration sort of rolling points ala Swash's just tailored for investigator. Or if they made it something like abilities that work off Focus Pool (which is the same as focus spell points, just different name cause not magic. or just make them spells i guess but thats less fun/unique).
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So something like a reaction to add some amount of circ points maybe. Or something. With how tight things are I'm not sure how it would work</p>I'd actually rather love if they did the inspiration sort of rolling points ala Swash's just tailored for investigator. Or if they made it something like abilities that work off Focus Pool (which is the same as focus spell points, just different name cause not magic. or just make them spells i guess but thats less fun/unique).
So something like a reaction to add some amount of circ points maybe. Or something. With how tight things are I'm not sure how it would workZwordsman2019-11-10T21:01:44ZRe: Forums: Investigator Playtest: Should the investigator be a rogue racket instead?RussianAllyhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42u5u?Should-the-investigator-be-a-rogue-racket#242019-11-17T18:13:32Z2019-11-10T18:08:09Z<p>There's definitely not enough about this class to warrant it being a separate class in the Play Test. Everybody I've shown the pdf so far came to the same conclusion, too.</p>
<p>An Investigator as is, is a bit too similar to its PF1 version, where a lot of classes were just hybridizations of existiing classes with very few unique mechanics of their own.</p>
<p>Right now, the Investigator seems to me to be the less interesting of the four new classes because it doesn't have neither a strong mechanic nor flavor identity to separate it from existing classes.</p>
<p>Mind me, this might change if Paizo gets this feedback and strengthens the Investigator's identity in some way.</p>There's definitely not enough about this class to warrant it being a separate class in the Play Test. Everybody I've shown the pdf so far came to the same conclusion, too.
An Investigator as is, is a bit too similar to its PF1 version, where a lot of classes were just hybridizations of existiing classes with very few unique mechanics of their own.
Right now, the Investigator seems to me to be the less interesting of the four new classes because it doesn't have neither a strong mechanic nor...RussianAlly2019-11-10T18:08:09ZRe: Forums: Investigator Playtest: Should the investigator be a rogue racket instead?Malk_Contenthttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42u5u?Should-the-investigator-be-a-rogue-racket#232019-11-10T06:36:07Z2019-11-10T06:36:07Z<p>I like almost all the investigator feats as options I would consider for a character. Thus I have to be in the "own class" boat because there is no way they are adding a racket or archetype with an entire classes worth of options.</p>I like almost all the investigator feats as options I would consider for a character. Thus I have to be in the "own class" boat because there is no way they are adding a racket or archetype with an entire classes worth of options.Malk_Content2019-11-10T06:36:07ZRe: Forums: Investigator Playtest: Should the investigator be a rogue racket instead?DougSeayhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42u5u?Should-the-investigator-be-a-rogue-racket#222019-11-11T04:18:57Z2019-11-10T02:59:27Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Zwordsman wrote:</div><blockquote> IF it had to be "not its own class" it could be an Archetype, which would be narritively interesting. </blockquote><p>I think that investigator would be better off as an archetype. Just the essential abilities mixed in with any class. Making it a rogue racket could work, but that seems needlessly limiting. Wizard and alchemist seem investigator friendly.
<p>I understand they want it for CSI:Absalom. Changing investigator to something other than a class could affect that AP. So I'm afraid that choice has already been made.</p>Zwordsman wrote:IF it had to be "not its own class" it could be an Archetype, which would be narritively interesting.
I think that investigator would be better off as an archetype. Just the essential abilities mixed in with any class. Making it a rogue racket could work, but that seems needlessly limiting. Wizard and alchemist seem investigator friendly. I understand they want it for CSI:Absalom. Changing investigator to something other than a class could affect that AP. So I'm afraid that...DougSeay2019-11-10T02:59:27ZRe: Forums: Investigator Playtest: Should the investigator be a rogue racket instead?EberronHowardhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42u5u?Should-the-investigator-be-a-rogue-racket#212019-11-17T15:21:37Z2019-11-10T02:51:28Z<p>Before the playtest, one of my players made a Wizard that acted a lot like an Investigator from an Agatha Christie novel. It's okay if you can take a concept and do it with several different classes, because classes can do more than one thing. It feels like the Investigator class is based on modern day CSI investigators, based on their subclass builds. You can make a Sherlock Holmes with them, but it definitely leans closer into what you see on Primetime crime shows. </p>
<p>Personally, I'd like the Investigator to be unique by doubling-down on effects like On The Scene, where you get clues w/o rolling for it. Basically, take the Gumshoe RPG and steal liberally. I wouldn't mind if the class was really only good in a mystery-based system (but was excellent for that), since it's an optional class for the game, and it would be one way of slowing down the feeling of splat fatigue.</p>Before the playtest, one of my players made a Wizard that acted a lot like an Investigator from an Agatha Christie novel. It's okay if you can take a concept and do it with several different classes, because classes can do more than one thing. It feels like the Investigator class is based on modern day CSI investigators, based on their subclass builds. You can make a Sherlock Holmes with them, but it definitely leans closer into what you see on Primetime crime shows.
Personally, I'd like the...EberronHoward2019-11-10T02:51:28ZRe: Forums: Investigator Playtest: Should the investigator be a rogue racket instead?AnimatedPaperhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42u5u?Should-the-investigator-be-a-rogue-racket#202019-11-09T22:07:03Z2019-11-09T22:04:07Z<p>100% agree. I assume they didn’t want two classes in the playtest that had a similar “limit break” mechanic, but...yeah.</p>
<p>I’m curious why they didn’t just use focus.</p>
<p>Edit: of course, this is a playtest. It’s entirely possible the live Investigator will basically be a swashbuckler that uses int skills, and they’ll try this take the case/study suspect mechanic again later when they re-introduce the slayer or inquisitor or whatever.</p>100% agree. I assume they didn’t want two classes in the playtest that had a similar “limit break” mechanic, but...yeah.
I’m curious why they didn’t just use focus.
Edit: of course, this is a playtest. It’s entirely possible the live Investigator will basically be a swashbuckler that uses int skills, and they’ll try this take the case/study suspect mechanic again later when they re-introduce the slayer or inquisitor or whatever.AnimatedPaper2019-11-09T22:04:07ZRe: Forums: Investigator Playtest: Should the investigator be a rogue racket instead?Squiggithttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42u5u?Should-the-investigator-be-a-rogue-racket#192019-11-17T08:10:57Z2019-11-09T21:50:31Z<p>TBH inspiration as some sort of panache-like mechanic would have been really cool.</p>
<p>Strikes me as odd that the PF2 investigator ditched Inspiration, which I always felt was their core mechanic, but kept Studied Strike, which always felt like just a way to tack on some combat viability and hit the rogue notes for the hybrid class paradigm.</p>TBH inspiration as some sort of panache-like mechanic would have been really cool.
Strikes me as odd that the PF2 investigator ditched Inspiration, which I always felt was their core mechanic, but kept Studied Strike, which always felt like just a way to tack on some combat viability and hit the rogue notes for the hybrid class paradigm.Squiggit2019-11-09T21:50:31ZRe: Forums: Investigator Playtest: Should the investigator be a rogue racket instead?AnimatedPaperhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42u5u?Should-the-investigator-be-a-rogue-racket#182019-11-09T21:35:31Z2019-11-09T21:35:31Z<p>I find it deeply ironic that swashbucklers scored an interesting cycling mechanic that makes it play different from existing classes, while the investigator, which most of us weren’t worried about, wound up too close to an existing playstyle.</p>
<p>Actually, how about adding an swashbuckler style that grants panache when you successfully recall knowledge? (Mostly kidding. Mostly)</p>I find it deeply ironic that swashbucklers scored an interesting cycling mechanic that makes it play different from existing classes, while the investigator, which most of us weren’t worried about, wound up too close to an existing playstyle.
Actually, how about adding an swashbuckler style that grants panache when you successfully recall knowledge? (Mostly kidding. Mostly)AnimatedPaper2019-11-09T21:35:31ZRe: Forums: Investigator Playtest: Should the investigator be a rogue racket instead?Deadmanwalkinghttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42u5u?Should-the-investigator-be-a-rogue-racket#172019-11-11T04:08:29Z2019-11-09T20:27:59Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Squiggit wrote:</div><blockquote>As it stands right now, yeah, you could just have a rogue racket that gave you take the case and fold investigator feats into the rogue list and you'd hardly notice a difference.</blockquote><p>Right now, I think this would be strictly better mechanically, more fun, and probably not unbalancing in any way with other Rackets and Classes.
<p>But I'm really hoping that, by the end of the playtest, none of that is true any more and we get something unique, flavorful, and effective. It's not actually that far off on any of the things in question. All of them are achievable with just a few changes and some new Investigator Feats, IMO.</p>Squiggit wrote:As it stands right now, yeah, you could just have a rogue racket that gave you take the case and fold investigator feats into the rogue list and you'd hardly notice a difference.
Right now, I think this would be strictly better mechanically, more fun, and probably not unbalancing in any way with other Rackets and Classes. But I'm really hoping that, by the end of the playtest, none of that is true any more and we get something unique, flavorful, and effective. It's not...Deadmanwalking2019-11-09T20:27:59ZRe: Forums: Investigator Playtest: Should the investigator be a rogue racket instead?Squiggithttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42u5u?Should-the-investigator-be-a-rogue-racket#162019-11-09T19:49:28Z2019-11-09T19:49:28Z<p>I don't think it should be.</p>
<p>But I think as written it <b>feels</b> like one.</p>
<p>I hope the final version of the Investigator does more to distance itself from the Rogue.</p>
<p>As it stands right now, yeah, you could just have a rogue racket that gave you take the case and fold investigator feats into the rogue list and you'd hardly notice a difference.</p>I don't think it should be.
But I think as written it feels like one.
I hope the final version of the Investigator does more to distance itself from the Rogue.
As it stands right now, yeah, you could just have a rogue racket that gave you take the case and fold investigator feats into the rogue list and you'd hardly notice a difference.Squiggit2019-11-09T19:49:28ZRe: Forums: Investigator Playtest: Should the investigator be a rogue racket instead?Alyranhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42u5u?Should-the-investigator-be-a-rogue-racket#152019-11-09T17:39:12Z2019-11-09T17:38:32Z<p>I feel like it changes enough that it couldn't be a racket. However, it could be a rogue class archetype perhaps as it still fits well within the overall chassis of the rogue. But they still seem to have not nailed those down yet and haven't released any.</p>I feel like it changes enough that it couldn't be a racket. However, it could be a rogue class archetype perhaps as it still fits well within the overall chassis of the rogue. But they still seem to have not nailed those down yet and haven't released any.Alyran2019-11-09T17:38:32ZRe: Forums: Investigator Playtest: Should the investigator be a rogue racket instead?Aswaarghttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42u5u?Should-the-investigator-be-a-rogue-racket#142019-11-09T17:30:07Z2019-11-09T17:30:07Z<p>No, it needs to be a diferent class so the Investigator has more potential and ways to grow in different ways.</p>No, it needs to be a diferent class so the Investigator has more potential and ways to grow in different ways.Aswaarg2019-11-09T17:30:07ZRe: Forums: Investigator Playtest: Should the investigator be a rogue racket instead?AnimatedPaperhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42u5u?Should-the-investigator-be-a-rogue-racket#132019-11-09T14:28:25Z2019-11-09T14:28:25Z<p>If they did make it a racket, I'd want the majority of the Investigator class feats to become rogue or ranger feats (or both). There's a lot fo ways to use Recall Knowledge and Perception in combat here, and I'd want to preserve that playstyle.</p>If they did make it a racket, I'd want the majority of the Investigator class feats to become rogue or ranger feats (or both). There's a lot fo ways to use Recall Knowledge and Perception in combat here, and I'd want to preserve that playstyle.AnimatedPaper2019-11-09T14:28:25ZRe: Forums: Investigator Playtest: Should the investigator be a rogue racket instead?S. J. Digriz (alias of moon glum, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs42u5u?Should-the-investigator-be-a-rogue-racket#122019-11-09T14:19:18Z2019-11-09T14:19:18Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">QuidEst wrote:</div><blockquote> No way, the Investigator trades some of Rogue's combat focus for even more skill focus. Its feats are much more oriented towards mental skills, and it provides a similar class without some of Rogue's shady baggage. </blockquote><p>If the difference is just that its feats have a focus on mental skills and perception, then it should be a rogue racket, and then there should be more skill feats, rogue feats, and rogue feats specific to that racket that focus on mental skills and investigation. For example, the rapid recall feat that lets you make 5 recall knowledge checks as a free action could be a rogue feat that has the investigator racket as a prerequisite.
<p>Also note that making the investigator a rogue gives them access to a rogues other feats, which is not outside of the concept of a detective, as investigators are sometimes spies, con men, or the like as well.</p>QuidEst wrote:No way, the Investigator trades some of Rogue's combat focus for even more skill focus. Its feats are much more oriented towards mental skills, and it provides a similar class without some of Rogue's shady baggage.
If the difference is just that its feats have a focus on mental skills and perception, then it should be a rogue racket, and then there should be more skill feats, rogue feats, and rogue feats specific to that racket that focus on mental skills and investigation. For...S. J. Digriz (alias of moon glum, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8)2019-11-09T14:19:18ZRe: Forums: Investigator Playtest: Should the investigator be a rogue racket instead?QuidEsthttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42u5u?Should-the-investigator-be-a-rogue-racket#112019-11-09T15:51:02Z2019-11-09T12:47:51Z<p>No way, the Investigator trades some of Rogue's combat focus for even more skill focus. Its feats are much more oriented towards mental skills, and it provides a similar class without some of Rogue's shady baggage.</p>No way, the Investigator trades some of Rogue's combat focus for even more skill focus. Its feats are much more oriented towards mental skills, and it provides a similar class without some of Rogue's shady baggage.QuidEst2019-11-09T12:47:51Z