Creature with Int 2 or lower with Advanced template gets their Int raised to 3 or higher permanently, like say through an acquired template. Does their Int raise from the Advanced template?


Rules Questions


Just wondering, if say, you gave a Heavy Horse, which is a Horse with the Advanced template and a bite attack, the Man-Eating Animal template, which raises its Int by +2, would the Advanced template now raise its Int a further +4, or would there be no change from the Advanced template?


That depends on the template being inherited or not.


Each template should only be applied once. Since the CR is being adjusted the same amount regardless of order that they get applied, I would suggest applying the templates in the order that grants the biggest bonuses.

So, in the case of the horse, it would have the following

Base INT 2

+2 from Man Eating
+4 from advanced

Final int = 8


Cavall wrote:
That depends on the template being inherited or not.

I'm not sure if that matters. I would assume for example that the celestial template retroactively grants higher DR and resistances as the creature gains HD either by leveling or the addition of acquired templates. That it isn't stuck at whatever abilities it gained from the template when it was "born".


It would entirely matter as an inherited template would clearly be one you're born with therefore there is little doubt as to it affecting the animal first. If you gain advanced after, there would be no issue.

Whereas if you gained the advanced first and then gained man eater after it wouldn't retroactively make you 4x smarter.

This is explained in the templates section and the templates discussed.

So yes it matters


Cavall wrote:

It would entirely matter as an inherited template would clearly be one you're born with therefore there is little doubt as to it affecting the animal first. If you gain advanced after, there would be no issue.

Whereas if you gained the advanced first and then gained man eater after it wouldn't retroactively make you 4x smarter.

This is explained in the templates section and the templates discussed.

So yes it matters

can you link the section where it explains that?

I don't see anything that says that a template can not retroactively apply it's traits when relevant changes occur to the creature.

If what you're saying is correct then the feat Celestial Servant just got a lot weaker as your animal companion would not gain additional benefits from being a celestial as it gains HD, namely DR, SR and Elemental Resistances. It would be stuck at whatever it gained from the template the moment it was gained.


It entirely depends upon the order in which the templates are applied.

What order they're applied in depends on whether you're adding a template to a creature that already exists in the game world or if you're making the creature from scratch. If the former, then it's in chronological order if they're not all simultaneous. If the latter, then it's entirely the GM's choice, so long as the combination and chain of templates is legal. Although, the GM can always houserule or homebrew otherwise, of course.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Archives of Nethys wrote:

Templates

Source Pathfinder RPG Bestiary pg. 294
A template is a set of rules that you apply to a monster to transform it into a different monster. All templates give precise directions on how to change a monster’s statistics to transform it into the new monster.

Acquired Templates: Some templates, like the lich, are the results of a creature’s choice and desire to transform. Others, like the ghost template, are the result of an external force acting upon a creature (for example, when a tormented person dies and becomes a ghost). Yet in both cases, the template changed a creature well after its birth or creation—these types are called “acquired templates,” and can be added to a creature at any time during its existance.

Inherited Templates: Some templates, such as the half-dragon and half-fiend templates, are part of a creature from the beginning of its existence. Creatures are born or created with these templates already in place, and have never known life without them. These types of templates are called “inherited templates.”

I recall reading that some template doesn't increase the creature intelligence if that was originally 2 or lower, An example is the Advanced template: "Ability Scores +4 to all ability scores (except Int scores of 2 or less)."

Man-eating, on the contrary, is meant to increase the intelligence of animals:
"With their rudimentary intelligence, man-eating animals are able to understand the guttural tongue of the Abyss, and to learn common words in the language of those they hunt. Many take advantage of hunters who assume they are dumb animals.
...
Man-Eating” is an inherited or acquired template that can be added to a creature of the animal type. A maneating animal uses all the base creature’s statistics and special abilities except as noted here."

Advanced is an acquired template:
"Acquired/Inherited Template Acquired"

With all the above, what matters is the order of acquisition of the templates:
- if Maneating is acquired first, Advanced increase the creature intelligence;
- if Advanced is acquired first, it doesn't increase the creature intelligence, but Maneating does.

Maneating can be inherited or acquired, while advanced is only acquired, so Maneating can be easily applied first.

Personally, as a GM, I wouldn't add the Advanced increase in intelligence as I feel that it goes against the "rudimentary intelligence" cited in the Maneating template unless I purposefully want to depict an exceptionally intelligent maneating creature. If the goal is simply to increase its power, it having only a rudimentary intelligence if fine.

To cite a last piece of the monster creatin rules: "Creating a monster is part science and part art."
So it is not a matter of how the rule work, but what you want to the monster to be.


Templates are usually a simplification to make life easier for the GM when making a themed monster. I don't think a PC will be getting a man-eater pet (which they control) so in this case it's definitely in the 'simplification' group. The question then is do you want the monster to be in humanities' bottom 2% for smarts, or the bottom 30% - without a combat effect? It's no more than that.


I really don’t think order of operations should matter. The advanced template doesn’t give a bonus to intelligence, if the intelligence is 2 or less. But if the intelligence is 3 or more, it gives a bonus to intelligence. It’s just a conditional. If you fulfill the condition, you get the bonus.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Melkiador wrote:
I really don’t think order of operations should matter. The advanced template doesn’t give a bonus to intelligence, if the intelligence is 2 or less. But if the intelligence is 3 or more, it gives a bonus to intelligence. It’s just a conditional. If you fulfill the condition, you get the bonus.

RAW it matter. If you add advanced first, the intelligence stays 2, then adding maneating increase it to 4.

If you ad maneating first the intelligence rise to 4, so when you add advanced it isn't 2 and you add the +4.


Diego Rossi wrote:
Melkiador wrote:
I really don’t think order of operations should matter. The advanced template doesn’t give a bonus to intelligence, if the intelligence is 2 or less. But if the intelligence is 3 or more, it gives a bonus to intelligence. It’s just a conditional. If you fulfill the condition, you get the bonus.

RAW it matter. If you add advanced first, the intelligence stays 2, then adding maneating increase it to 4.

If you ad maneating first the intelligence rise to 4, so when you add advanced it isn't 2 and you add the +4.

I see no evidence that it works that way. It’s like how if you raise your intelligence to the next breakpoint, you retroactively gain the skill points and languages as if you always had that level of intelligence. The order you got something almost never matters in Pathfinder.


Melkiador wrote:
I really don’t think order of operations should matter. The advanced template doesn’t give a bonus to intelligence, if the intelligence is 2 or less. But if the intelligence is 3 or more, it gives a bonus to intelligence. It’s just a conditional. If you fulfill the condition, you get the bonus.

The order of operations matters because it establishes what the conditions are at the time when you apply the template.

You don't combine all the templates together into one super template that applies all in one go, it's a step-by-step process.

Liberty's Edge

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Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Melkiador wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
Melkiador wrote:
I really don’t think order of operations should matter. The advanced template doesn’t give a bonus to intelligence, if the intelligence is 2 or less. But if the intelligence is 3 or more, it gives a bonus to intelligence. It’s just a conditional. If you fulfill the condition, you get the bonus.

RAW it matter. If you add advanced first, the intelligence stays 2, then adding maneating increase it to 4.

If you ad maneating first the intelligence rise to 4, so when you add advanced it isn't 2 and you add the +4.

I see no evidence that it works that way. It’s like how if you raise your intelligence to the next breakpoint, you retroactively gain the skill points and languages as if you always had that level of intelligence. The order you got something almost never matters in Pathfinder.

I already cited the relevant rules:

1) there is a sequence in which you acquire the templates:

Archives of Nethys wrote:

Templates

Source Pathfinder RPG Bestiary pg. 294
A template is a set of rules that you apply to a monster to transform it into a different monster. All templates give precise directions on how to change a monster’s statistics to transform it into the new monster.

Acquired Templates: Some templates, like the lich, are the results of a creature’s choice and desire to transform. Others, like the ghost template, are the result of an external force acting upon a creature (for example, when a tormented person dies and becomes a ghost). Yet in both cases, the template changed a creature well after its birth or creation—these types are called “acquired templates,” and can be added to a creature at any time during its existance.

Inherited Templates: Some templates, such as the half-dragon and half-fiend templates, are part of a creature from the beginning of its existence. Creatures are born or created with these templates already in place, and have never known life without them. These types of templates are called “inherited templates.”

2) Some template has a limitation about raising intelligence:

Advanced template wrote:
Ability Scores +4 to all ability scores (except Int scores of 2 or less).

3) Nowhere it says that templates affect each other retroactively.

Do you have any evidence supporting your opinion?


Conditions applying retroactively is the default for Pathfinder though. I already mentioned skill ranks and changes to intelligence, but such rules are all through the Pathfinder system. For instance, if you lose the prerequisite to a feat, you lose that feat.

The lack of an order mattering is very purposeful and allows us to know that a creature has a list of stats And abilities no matter what path they took to get to that point.


So what you're saying us the moment a 2 int creature gains +1 int its automatically 7 int?

I do not see evidence it works that way.

I again state it depends on which you get first. And since an inherited template is born with, it would apply first

So my statement is true. It depends on of its inherited or not.


If there was evidence that a template can reapply its self repeatedly I would say it's possible. Again I dont see any evidence of that.


The template doesn’t get “re-applied”. You simply obey the conditions of the template. The conditions don’t vanish just because you’ve already applied the template.


Melkiador wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
Melkiador wrote:
I really don’t think order of operations should matter. The advanced template doesn’t give a bonus to intelligence, if the intelligence is 2 or less. But if the intelligence is 3 or more, it gives a bonus to intelligence. It’s just a conditional. If you fulfill the condition, you get the bonus.

RAW it matter. If you add advanced first, the intelligence stays 2, then adding maneating increase it to 4.

If you ad maneating first the intelligence rise to 4, so when you add advanced it isn't 2 and you add the +4.
I see no evidence that it works that way. It’s like how if you raise your intelligence to the next breakpoint, you retroactively gain the skill points and languages as if you always had that level of intelligence. The order you got something almost never matters in Pathfinder.

The order matters when adding magic effects to magic items. For the sale price, order does not matter, but for crafting it does.

Melkiador wrote:
The template doesn’t get “re-applied”. You simply obey the conditions of the template. The conditions don’t vanish just because you’ve already applied the template.

Once the template has been applied, you have a new creature. Otherwise you could not apply some templates repeatedly as has been done.

Another way to think of it is that you are applying "Maneater" to the creature called "Horse(Advanved)", and therefor the result is Int 4.

/cevah

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