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I believe I tried to make the bad representation point somewhere above but far far less eloquently
But I was definitely having thoughts of how blind people perceive dardevil and similar ideas. So when I get time to read them I will definitely find the links interesting!
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I believe I tried to make the bad representation point somewhere above but far far less eloquently
But I was definitely having thoughts of how blind people perceive dardevil and similar ideas. So when I get time to read them I will definitely find the links interesting!
Ah, you mean how its a super bad thing that destroy lives and makes you incapable as an independent person, unless you also get superpowers that are flatly superior to being sighted and then you have value again? Yeah, Daredevil, etc. comes across as a 'little' creepy and insensitive.
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I'm gonna miss Alhazra's hat, at least. She has an awesome hat.
I always wanted to see a group of her, the Summoner, the Inquisitor and the Shaman, as the 'fancy hats club.'
(I also liked that the Iconic Oracle's name was a feminization of Abdul Al-Hazred, the 'Mad Arab' of Lovecraftian lore, who wrote the Necronomicon. It made her the easiest of the Iconics to Rule 63. These sorts of things amuse my tiny mind.)
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I always wanted to see a group of her, the Summoner, the Inquisitor and the Shaman, as the 'fancy hats club.'
How dare you fail to mention Meligaster and his fancy... I want to say, super fez ?
But you're not wrong, that was one impressive headpiece. Though, kind of the most memorable thing about the character.
We'll still see it though, if she's one of the build example illustrations - and I wouldn't be surprised if those popped up again, every now and then, afterwards.
While I never really liked Tengu purely based on aesthetics, bird people just look wrong to me, it´s somekind of uncanny valley thing, I guess, maybe I habour some deep hidden recentment towards humanoid avians, dunno, but that´s the only issue I had with it.
I get that they want to showcase more of their fantastical character options, but I have to admit that I would prefere a Tiefling or Aasimar Iconic instead.
Guess that´s all I have to say about it.
While I never really liked Tengu purely based on aesthetics, bird people just look wrong to me, it´s somekind of uncanny valley thing, I guess, maybe I habour some deep hidden recentment towards humanoid avians, dunno, but that´s the only issue I had with it.
They always look non-functional to me. Their limbs just aren't capable of basic tasks we take for granted.
For an iconic, tengu seems an odd choice, partly because the setting is so human-centric, and even for non-humans they're an obscure/rare bunch from a distant corner of the map that isn't really covered well by the existing materials. Stryx would make more sense for the default setting assumptions, if they absolutely had to be some avian-related thing.
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The human centric-ness of the setting got dialed back, as far as I get the vibe from PF2. Paizo set out to do a human-centric setting ... but then it turned out that an average party of people actually playing Pathfinder is at least 1 kitsune, 1-2 aasimars/tieflings, 1 dhampir/duskwalker/tengu/ganzi/something_weirder, 1 goblin/orc/hobgoblin and 1 core ancesty. At least that's how it goes down for me and most people I spoke to about the matter.
So, the setting got adjusted to how it plays out in reality. Mind you, it's still dominated by humans, it's just that you will be seeing weirder ancestries much more often
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For an iconic, tengu seems an odd choice, partly because the setting is so human-centric, and even for non-humans they're an obscure/rare bunch from a distant corner of the map that isn't really covered well by the existing materials. Stryx would make more sense for the default setting assumptions, if they absolutely had to be some avian-related thing.
Tengu have significant enclaves in The Shackles, Kwanlai(their faltering nation-state), and are also known to have small nests in pretty much any major city.
I'd rank them as 'more prevalent in civilized areas than goblins' and goblins are a CORE race.
I'd also rank them as 'more prevalent in civilized areas than elves' and elves are a CORE race.
Likewise dwarves and gnomes save for specifically dwarven or gnomish cites.
Strix, on the other hand, are only really known to be from one or two areas and their presence is nearly mythical given their war with Cheliax-based human settlers.
And no, I'm not making this up, the information has been out there since mid-PF1.
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I would imagine that Tengu got the leg up over the Tiefling because they, and Goblins, are more uniquely 'Golarion' and not associated as strongly with D&D.
It's possible that other races introduced for Golarion, like Changelings or Kitsune, have a small advantage over other more 'D&D' races like Hobgoblins or Duergar in that they are less likely to be seen as somebody else's IP.
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I would imagine that Tengu got the leg up over the Tiefling because they, and Goblins, are more uniquely 'Golarion' and not associated as strongly with D&D.
It's possible that other races introduced for Golarion, like Changelings or Kitsune, have a small advantage over other more 'D&D' races like Hobgoblins or Duergar in that they are less likely to be seen as somebody else's IP.
Also consider:
- Tieflings have far more varied appearance than any other ancestry which doesn't fit too well for an iconic
- Kitsune are folklore based. Tengu from folklore are not birds but Kitsune are still foxes
- Changelings probably look rather similar to humans so won't obviously stand out
Also, Tengu are an ancestry that will be featured in the Advanced Player's Guide (i.e. the same book in which the Oracle will be in).
Carry on,
--C.
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They always look non-functional to me. Their limbs just aren't capable of basic tasks we take for granted.
I've watched enough crows to know a beak and a bird foot are enough to accomplish some pretty complex tasks. With long beaks and their hands sort of halfway between a primate's and a bird's foot, I think Tengu probably do just fine. There might even be tasks their hands can more easily accomplish that would seem quite difficult for humans.
Grabbing small rodents, probably.
I would have preferred Alahazra, silly outfit and all, but that's the way these things go. I still miss Seoni's preposterous lack of outfit. The birdperson is going to be cool, but has big shoes to fill.
Er, if bird people wear shoes.
I would have preferred Alahazra, silly outfit and all, but that's the way these things go. I still miss Seoni's preposterous lack of outfit. The birdperson is going to be cool, but has big shoes to fill.
Er, if bird people wear shoes.
Sometimes sandals.
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Ok, I’ve been struggling whether to way in on this topic or not. I’m totally blind though, so why not throw in my perspective on the matter. I’m fine with replacing Alhazra as an iconic. She never really appealed to me in the slightest. Her backstory was just bleh to me. For the record I love blind characters in fiction like Daredevil. Its not insensitive in the slightest to me. Maybe I’m rare in that, but its how I feel. I don’t need representation in the game world. Its nice, but unnessisary. I play RPG’s to be someone else, not myself in a different world. To each their own though. If anyone has questions about blindness, feel free to PM me.
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You know, I was remembering during the playtest that there was a regular here who was blind - I remember threads about the action symbols not making sense to the translation software - and I wondered if that person would show up here.
Thanks for weighing in.
I would imagine that Tengu got the leg up over the Tiefling because they, and Goblins, are more uniquely 'Golarion' and not associated as strongly with D&D.
...they're a Japanese myth. They're not uniquely Golarion at all. While goblins aren't Japanese in origin, they're not uniquely Golarion either.
...they're a Japanese myth. They're not uniquely Golarion at all. While goblins aren't Japanese in origin, they're not uniquely Golarion either.I would imagine that Tengu got the leg up over the Tiefling because they, and Goblins, are more uniquely 'Golarion' and not associated as strongly with D&D.
okay fine, they're "more likely to be something put on a book cover than they are for DnD from WotC"
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...they're a Japanese myth. They're not uniquely Golarion at all. While goblins aren't Japanese in origin, they're not uniquely Golarion either.I would imagine that Tengu got the leg up over the Tiefling because they, and Goblins, are more uniquely 'Golarion' and not associated as strongly with D&D.
More 'uniquely Golarion' in that they aren't associated with Planescape or Greyhawk or the Forgotten Realms or some other company's IP, like Tieflings.
Not 'more uniquely Golarion' in that Paizo mashed a bunch of random letters together and created something completely new, like a magitek cyborg psionic Ooze PC race or something. :)
(Gah, now I want to write that up...)
Tengu are associated with the Midgard setting though (& seem to've been so from its start, IIRC), albeit under the names 'Huginn' & 'Heru' as well as 'Tengu'.
Still, they are "more uniquely Golarion" than for any of the D&D settings (except for 3.5E's Oriental Adventures, perhaps?).
Carry on,
--C.
PS: Your "magitek cyborg psionic Ooze PC race or something" sounds interesting!
Not 'more uniquely Golarion' in that Paizo mashed a bunch of random letters together and created something completely new, like a magitek cyborg psionic Ooze PC race or something. :)
(Gah, now I want to write that up...)
A friend of mine was once telling me about his character concept, which was a sentient swarm of psionic nanobots possessing the body of a mutant wizard.
I said that seemed like a hard concept to represent mechanically.
He replied "It's a GURPS game. It'll probably take me a couple hours of cross referencing source books at most."
Credit to GURPS: He wasn't wrong. XD
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...they're a Japanese myth. They're not uniquely Golarion at all. While goblins aren't Japanese in origin, they're not uniquely Golarion either.I would imagine that Tengu got the leg up over the Tiefling because they, and Goblins, are more uniquely 'Golarion' and not associated as strongly with D&D.
More 'uniquely Golarion' in that they aren't associated with Planescape or Greyhawk or the Forgotten Realms or some other company's IP, like Tieflings.
Pretty sure tengu were in the Kara-Tur area of the Forgotten Realms, as it was the generalized asian adventures expy area, exactly like whatever-its-called in Golarion.
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Pretty sure tengu were in the Kara-Tur area of the Forgotten Realms, as it was the generalized asian adventures expy area, exactly like whatever-its-called in Golarion....they're a Japanese myth. They're not uniquely Golarion at all. While goblins aren't Japanese in origin, they're not uniquely Golarion either.I would imagine that Tengu got the leg up over the Tiefling because they, and Goblins, are more uniquely 'Golarion' and not associated as strongly with D&D.
More 'uniquely Golarion' in that they aren't associated with Planescape or Greyhawk or the Forgotten Realms or some other company's IP, like Tieflings.
The D&D raven-people are called kenku, not tengu.
And it's called Dragon Empires in Golarion. You could at least get your semantics right from time to time :)
Pretty sure tengu were in the Kara-Tur area of the Forgotten Realms, as it was the generalized asian adventures expy area, exactly like whatever-its-called in Golarion....they're a Japanese myth. They're not uniquely Golarion at all. While goblins aren't Japanese in origin, they're not uniquely Golarion either.I would imagine that Tengu got the leg up over the Tiefling because they, and Goblins, are more uniquely 'Golarion' and not associated as strongly with D&D.
More 'uniquely Golarion' in that they aren't associated with Planescape or Greyhawk or the Forgotten Realms or some other company's IP, like Tieflings.
The D&D raven-people are called kenku, not tengu.
And it's called Dragon Empires in Golarion. You could at least get your semantics right from time to time :)
Or tian xia in the local tongue.
Don't know if I'm derailing the thread here but I do want to get across to Paizo that... while I appreciate their desire to highlight diverse ancestries in the iconics... the need to represent human diversity requires more human iconics and I really hope they keep that in mind for future icons.
The need for positive media representation of diverse humanity in the tense world we find ourselves is kinda overwhelming and I'm sad to say that tengus and elves and catfolk etc. can't fulfill that need.
Don't know if I'm derailing the thread here but I do want to get across to Paizo that... while I appreciate their desire to highlight diverse ancestries in the iconics... the need to represent human diversity requires more human iconics and I really hope they keep that in mind for future icons.
The need for positive media representation of diverse humanity in the tense world we find ourselves is kinda overwhelming and I'm sad to say that tengus and elves and catfolk etc. can't fulfill that need.
They can somewhat if they're a stand in for a culture, occupation or ability as opposed to a race or ethnicity. Since we know nothing about the new iconic I'm unset as to my opinion of it yet.
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Don't know if I'm derailing the thread here but I do want to get across to Paizo that... while I appreciate their desire to highlight diverse ancestries in the iconics... the need to represent human diversity requires more human iconics
Human diversity is more than just skin color. You could easily represent neurodivergencies like ADHD or the Autism Spectrum Disorder with a nonhuman race. In fact as someone on the spectrum I personally would encourage the latter...assuming they write them well. Western writers tend to be troublesome with this.
They can somewhat if they're a stand in for a culture, occupation or ability as opposed to a race or ethnicity. Since we know nothing about the new iconic I'm unset as to my opinion of it yet.Don't know if I'm derailing the thread here but I do want to get across to Paizo that... while I appreciate their desire to highlight diverse ancestries in the iconics... the need to represent human diversity requires more human iconics and I really hope they keep that in mind for future icons.
The need for positive media representation of diverse humanity in the tense world we find ourselves is kinda overwhelming and I'm sad to say that tengus and elves and catfolk etc. can't fulfill that need.
Paizo has had success with portraying diverse sexuality and gender identities through non human iconics I'll definitely agree with that.
Having NPC ancestries of all 'real world human' skin tones is also awesome at breaking away from eurocentrism.
But those things only become apparent when someone starts delving deeper into the lore. Iconics serve the role of showcasing what paizo is about at a glance. I'm not saying that it should all be humans all the time. I'm just asking that this consideration be kept in mind for future iconics.
Hardly. If anything, the Kenku/Tengu discussion was the derail. Please proceed! :)Don't know if I'm derailing the thread here but...
Well it is tough considering the original post of this thread did not have any real observation or steer on what the thread’s purpose was. At least not directly
It contained a selection of comments from the launch thread. And that was all. Whilst the intent could be inferred (And seems to have been) I can see why people may have potentially diverted the conversation in another direction
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Don't know if I'm derailing the thread here but I do want to get across to Paizo that... while I appreciate their desire to highlight diverse ancestries in the iconics... the need to represent human diversity requires more human iconics and I really hope they keep that in mind for future icons.
The need for positive media representation of diverse humanity in the tense world we find ourselves is kinda overwhelming and I'm sad to say that tengus and elves and catfolk etc. can't fulfill that need.
You might want to start a separate thread for that - this one is about this particular iconic, not about representation of humanity as a whole.