Hexes: Is Focus + 1 / target / day too restrictive?

[Charon Onozuka]

First late-night impression reading the Witch playtest, but I'm not sure I like how the hexes came out. In PF1, the limit of targeting a creature only once a day with an individual hex seemed fine because hexes were otherwise unlimited. However, now the same concept is being added as an additional restriction on an ability already drawing from a limited pool - I worry that stacking limitations will be too punishing/unfun.

For example, a beneficial hex like Life Boost can essentially only be used as many times in a day as you have party members. If your group gets into more combats during the day (refocusing between each one), then you suddenly have a dead ability that cannot be used even if you have focus points remaining. Especially at low levels, this could be your only hex and essentially deprive the character of a class feature during longer adventuring days.

Personally, I really dislike the idea that separate limitations could create situations were you have have focus points to use, but cannot actually use them. I could get behind 1/target/day when it was a limitation on an otherwise unlimited resource and would be fine with it remaining if Hexes became unique cantrips - but I feel that it shouldn't prevent use of a resource that is already limited by focus points.

What does everyone else think about this?

[Parrot]

Completely agree!

I was just coming on here to make a post myself. I'm less vocal here and more vocal in some social media groups for PF2 but there is no reason for hexes to have 24 hour mechanic anymore. It was never a very fun mechanic but as you said it was necessary because of unlimited hexes.

Now hexes revolve around focus spells which are a great mechanic that falls in line with other classes abilities and limits you perfectly into the short rest out of combat setting the rest of game is based on.

Why are we double tapping hexes with a mechanic that is completely not fun when there is a very fun and easy to work with mechanic limiting them already?

[Dubious Scholar]

To be honest, I'm not sure how much the 24hr immunity comes up since it's normally only going to come into play if enemies make their save.

1e witch is kind of ridiculous as a debuffer though because of the unlimited hexing. It does not take long for them to utterly cripple a target (to say nothing of Slumber builds). It definitely needed some kind of restriction beyond what it had.

With that said... yes. I feel like some of the hexes could warrant a look at whether they should be made focus cantrips per bard, or otherwise beefed up.

The chief offenders, to me:
Minor Ward - I'm not sure the immunity is needed here, since it's already costing focus. If you drop that off it's still a limited, single-target Inspire Defense for a focus point, and I can't see how it's remotely an issue to let you keep buffing the Champion each fight when you have to spend actions sustaining it. As is, this is incredibly worse than Bard support - I get that Witch tends to be more debuff oriented but I think this is a joke as is. If it must keep the 24 hours thing, remove creature type from mattering and just make it unconditional.

Life Boost I actually think is... mostly okay? Being Fast Healing and requiring sustaining makes it a fair bit weaker than healing hex from 1e though I think, which could warrant increasing the rate it heals - if it was 2/level and limited per day... well, someone needs to math that out I guess. Maybe have an initial (small) flat heal, like just +spellcasting mod, or 2x spell level or something.

Nudge Fate - I get it. Misfortune (and to a lesser degree Fortune) are pretty dumb in 1e. But there's basically no point in this even being sustainable if it breaks immediately since it almost certainly gets consumed the next round. If I'm spending focus points I feel like I should get more than a single shot debuff that can be saved against. Being able to specify what it targets is nice... but honestly anything except saves just doesn't feel worth it (oh joy, their first attack their next turn is worse), and then they have to fail a save in order to have to roll again... at which point maybe I should have just used the spell. Truthfully I feel this is clearly the worst of the initial hexes and should never be taken by anybody - just use Evil Eye instead.

[Atalius]

Would be nice to have focus spells like Evil Eye and Nudge Fate be cantrips like the Bard has (ie. Dirge of Doom) and not make it a focus spell. That is painful/unfun. As per Evil Eye and Nudge Fate, Nudge Fate is fairly horrendous currently, Evil Eye isn't too bad but not spectacular.

Ninja'd above somewhat

[Dubious Scholar]

Evil Eye warrants the focus point cost. An enemy succeeding at their save is still basically at a permanent -1 everything for the fight. Failures are worse! And note that unlike other fear-maintaining effects, it can't be reduced at all - if they fail they're stuck at Frightened 2 while the similar effects for Monk and Bard only prevent it going below 1.

[Atalius]

Right but they still need to spend an action each round sustaining that -2. Bard ability hits all enemies in a big radius and doesn't cost a focus point. I'll take Dirge of Doom.

[Dubious Scholar]

Dirge of Doom has to be recast every round for an action (or you burn focus on extending it) too. Monk's option doesn't require any particular action costs, but is harder to set up.

Maybe add a class feat to have sustained spells get one extra round before wearing off after you fail to sustain them (if you cackled the previous turn)?

That said, there's an argument to be made that bard is a better debuffer still... solely because Dirge of Doom exists (although note that they have severe restrictions on doing that AND buffing at the same time)

[Atalius]

Yep, I'd still prefer having to spend the action each round to maintain it then use a focus point. Those are valuable. I agree with you, Bard may be a better debuffer and there's something not right about that.

[Dubious Scholar]

I'll admit - if you had asked me to design Witch I would have basically ended up with "Bard but debuffing" and tried to translate the main 1e hexes over to focus cantrips.

[Parrot]

I think a cantrip is too strong but a save, a focus point and a 24 hour mechanic is too strict.

[shiran]

just to be sure about the Nudge Fate hex, if i cackle, i can sustain it
but if i target the save misfortune effect, the spell end automatically and the target become immune at the first save use by the target, or, i can sustain it for keep the misfortune's effet on the following first save of each round until i stop my cackle ?

[Dubious Scholar]

RAW, nudge fate ends once it triggers once, regardless of sustains. It's too weak atm - just take Evil Eye.

[Xenocrat]

Nudge Fate is hugely powerful, it’s True Strike you can cast on the fighter at level 1. It’s an extra action and once per day to limit it, but you get some back via the misfortune options. Giving every ally a True Strike per day without costing spell slots is amazing.

[Parrot]

Nudge fate is good but it's not broken. It's still 3 total actions for effectively swing twice and damage once.

Focus is a good limitation point. It's essentially a free true strike once per fight for a very long time and you can't use any other hex (because you run out of focus).

The focus limitation seems enough to keep it on par with other classes.

[Dubious Scholar]

I suppose that's fair. For debuffing I still say Evil Eye is better because of saves, etc.

[caratas]

Nudge Fate

I find Nudge fate pretty lack luster within combat. Its two actions and your focus to grant an ally a reroll, which translates ~ +5 to hit on a single attack.

That means that ally has to have something to do with their 1 action that is better than the 2 actions you spent on it.. There might be some combo power with a spell caster but.. I'd really rather just use bard song for its constant +1.

I believe Nudge fate shines in encounter mode, where you approach a trapped door and you grant the rogue rerolls on disarming, or before a big athletics check you toss it on your monk. Can't really use it in a diplomatic encounter unless someone can explain the insane laughing person though.

Evil Eye

To compare it to the other commonly referenced spell (evil eye) I also find it a bit lack luster? Its fear that makes me spend actions every turn, doesn't come with the possibility of a crit fail flee, and doesn't fade naturally..

Not fading is potent, but eating my action to do it is a tad annoying and personally doesn't seem like fun gameplay for every turn to start with 'cackle'... unless some neat feat support comes for the ability in the full book.

[Temperans]

I agree that it's too limiting. Just having the 1/day/target would had done a lot to stop it from being spammed and not had required you to rest before think about using another hex. Are the effects of Evil Eye too strong for at will? Maybe. But in that case just change the numbers a bit. For example instead of Frightened 1 on a successful save, a simple -1 to checks and DC for the next action.

Is Nudge too strong because it Grant's fortune & misfortune? Then split them apart. But once per combat is just meh.

[AsmodeusUltima]

+1 for changing hexes from focus powers to special cantrips ala bards, even if the power level of a couple existing ones needs to be tweaked. Obviously the 1/target/day mechanic would still hold and then they would still feel like a 1e witch.

[chellter]

Correct me if I am wrong but Evil Eye requires an action to keep up every round just as Dirge does. You would need to to cackle to maintain its effect or the spell ends. It's a sustained spell so for it to have a continued effect it needs to be sustained.

The thing that sets Evil Eye apart from Dirge is on a failure it's a -2 and a crit fail a -3. But it still requires a save which means on a crit success it just falls off. It also costs a focus point.

Dirge is one action no save -1 to everything in a 30-foot radius. Granted Dirge is a level six ability so it probably should be a bit stronger.

Granted my issue with Evil Eye is that after level 5 I am probably just going to be casting fear instead since I can hit multiple targets. It might fall off but most combats in our group end before that would matter anyways.

[Xenocrat]

I think hexes are fine where they are. At two actions, an action to sustain (where relevant), and focus cost they should be among the most powerful or unique/helpful focus spells. I think many of them hit that goal. Where they fall short those individual hexes should be improved (minor ward, looking at you) rather than the entire paradigm shifted toward Bard cantrips.

Bard cantrips share the need for an action to sustain, but they lack the ability of stack and sustain more than one (harmonize is not really comparable or ok), are much weaker (generally), and area focused rather than individual focused (generally).

I also like that a witch has to interact with their familiar to recharge their hexes, they aren't a permanent feature once learned.

Parrot wrote:

Nudge fate is good but it's not broken. It's still 3 total actions for effectively swing twice and damage once.

That very much depends. Two actions from the witch, but it might be used on a two action attack option from the martial character you boosted with it, something like Power Attack.

[Angel Hunter D]

Too restricted, for sure. The All Day aspect was a big draw in 1e, and now they don't even have a way to passively regain focus. Maybe if the familiar could recover focus for free I'd see it, but as is I'm fairly disappointed.

[Eoni]

+1 for the debuffing Bard idea. I was really hoping for cantrip hexes. You can even maintain the 1/day restriction that way. I would rather keep that restriction with a cantrip and have Hex Vulnerability as a Focus spell that allows you to bypass that restriction.

You've got the Bard model right there. Just flip the bonuses for penalties and make the more powerful stuff into focus spells.

[Eoni]

Xenocrat wrote:

I think hexes are fine where they are. At two actions, an action to sustain (where relevant), and focus cost they should be among the most powerful or unique/helpful focus spells. I think many of them hit that goal. Where they fall short those individual hexes should be improved (minor ward, looking at you) rather than the entire paradigm shifted toward Bard cantrips.

Bard cantrips share the need for an action to sustain, but they lack the ability of stack and sustain more than one (harmonize is not really comparable or ok), are much weaker (generally), and area focused rather than individual focused (generally).

Their hexes also have to be sustained though so it's not too different from what the Bard is doing with recasting their cantrips. It's even slightly worse since Bards have area effects and a no save debuff at that, all of which only take one action to use.

The stacking part of hexes isn't even that big of an issue since they can only be used 1/day per target and you can only sustain them for a minute so they won't be lasting through encounters.

[Dubious Scholar]

Also, witch is single target versus party wide from bard. Witch is definitely more varied though.

I think hexes need to be evaluated as cantrip or not case by case, and just give vulnerability as a global level 1 hex for everyone. Spend an action to metamagic a hex to ignore immunity to that hex... maybe just make it Accursed Hex from 1e though? Just to retry failures.

[Eoni]

Dubious Scholar wrote:

Also, witch is single target versus party wide from bard. Witch is definitely more varied though.

I think hexes need to be evaluated as cantrip or not case by case, and just give vulnerability as a global level 1 hex for everyone. Spend an action to metamagic a hex to ignore immunity to that hex... maybe just make it Accursed Hex from 1e though? Just to retry failures.

In terms of balance, I think I'd like Accursed Hex/Hex Vulnerability to be a level 6 focus power or metamagic. It would come online right when Bards get Dirge of Doom which feels about equal in power. I can also see Split Hex or Spell Hex as focus spells or metamagic.

[Temperans]

All the Hex feats (including Blood and Patron hex feats) would had worked well as either metamagic or focus spell even as just standard feats. Amplified hex for example would be really cool as a standard feat, allowing you to sacrifice spells to ensure/help your hex lands.

[Draco18s]

I'll also note that it used to be that a successful save on Evil Eye meant that it lasted 1 round (extended by Cackle), but a failure meant that it lasted ~6 rounds (letting the Witch do other things without losing the effect).

With the new combat flow due to the lack of AoO the witch is even more locked down than they were before.

[Xenocrat]

Draco18s wrote:

I'll also note that it used to be that a successful save on Evil Eye meant that it lasted 1 round (extended by Cackle), but a failure meant that it lasted ~6 rounds (letting the Witch do other things without losing the effect).

With the new combat flow due to the lack of AoO the witch is even more locked down than they were before.

It's also more broadly useful (Frightened effects everything, not just one chosen category of suck) and PF2 has far fewer immune creatures.

[Temperans]

Well Evil Eye effect used to stack. The strategy was usually to use it against saves so that even if it fails you can target AC or Attack rolls. So you had more options and it was at will so it was always useful. The upgrade to -4 at 8th lv was also nice.

Honestly, if they simply copy the old version (including being at will) and change the value it would work really well.

Crit Fail -2 to 1 check type for 1+int rds.
Fail -1 to 1 check type for 1+int rds.
Success -1 to 1 check type for 1 rd.
Crit success no effect.

And then maybe at expert or master increase it to -3 penalty on a crit fail and -2 on a fail

[Draco18s]

Xenocrat wrote:

Draco18s wrote:

I'll also note that it used to be that a successful save on Evil Eye meant that it lasted 1 round (extended by Cackle), but a failure meant that it lasted ~6 rounds (letting the Witch do other things without losing the effect).

With the new combat flow due to the lack of AoO the witch is even more locked down than they were before.

It's also more broadly useful (Frightened effects everything, not just one chosen category of suck) and PF2 has far fewer immune creatures.

True enough, though I rarely used two (and never more) on the same target. I also, personally, had little use for save DCs. If I got an effect that was worth my action(s) even on a successful save, it was good.

So, Evil Eye, Protective Luck, and Healing Hex (plus Cackle and Cauldron). All the rest of my hexes are/were/going to be dumped into Hex Channeler, with the exception of Cook People.

Because who doesn't want 1 hour cookies of +Stat

[Eoni]

Xenocrat wrote:

Draco18s wrote:

I'll also note that it used to be that a successful save on Evil Eye meant that it lasted 1 round (extended by Cackle), but a failure meant that it lasted ~6 rounds (letting the Witch do other things without losing the effect).

With the new combat flow due to the lack of AoO the witch is even more locked down than they were before.

It's also more broadly useful (Frightened effects everything, not just one chosen category of suck) and PF2 has far fewer immune creatures.

I'm not saying it's not useful but in its current state, a Hag Blooded sorcerer can replicate a similar effect with Jealous Hex for 1 action that doesn't need to be sustained, can be recast on the same target if you have more than 1 focus point, and thanks to their recharge mechanic can be freely done every 10 minutes.

[Xenocrat]

I don’t think Jealous Hex is very comparable at all. With Frightened you know what you get, and you know that it’s useful. Some of the JH effects won’t be useful and you can’t control or always predict the effect.

[Eoni]

Xenocrat wrote:

I don’t think Jealous Hex is very comparable at all. With Frightened you know what you get, and you know that it’s useful. Some of the JH effects won’t be useful and you can’t control or always predict the effect.

It's true that Frightened is a better overall condition but I used Jealous Hex as an example because it's a 1 action debuff that also targets will and penalize's an enemy's highest stat that doesn't have to be sustained and works up to a minute. You can also combine it with other potent effects like a spell or Demoralization and if you have more than 1 focus point you can do it again if they succeed.

[Lyz Liddell]

This is a great discussion and I'm glad to see it. It's an area we really want to see table-based information about, so I encourage y'all to whip up a witch and run a few sessions. There's questions in the surveys (coming Tuesday) that speak to this — I'd love to get your feedback on how it went!

[Corwin Icewolf]

What I found after playing the witch for a session is that the hex that i had(first level, personal blizzard) didn't stay on the weaker enemies long enough to really be useful, and was most effective on the boss enemy that kept knocking out our barbarian (dead in two attacks, in fact.) It did somewhere around 20% of the overall damage to the boss I think.

[kaid]

Atalius wrote:

Right but they still need to spend an action each round sustaining that -2. Bard ability hits all enemies in a big radius and doesn't cost a focus point. I'll take Dirge of Doom.

Although you can eventually feat cackle into a free ability which then just makes this really really strong and very worth the focus cost. Overall though I think the once per 24 hour limitation is a weird artifact to carry over from 1st edition. Unless you want to change these into something like the concentration cantrips of bards the focus cost is already the limiting factor and it would be super weird to use up all your focus then rest for 10 minutes and then do it again to the same targets. I can't even picture how that would work. If you want more of a restriction just have it can't do it again until you prepare your spells again. Which is a pretty common way of limiting such things and easier to mechanically keep track of.

[Zwordsman]

One thing I was thinking about was..

Cantrip like. But. they all have the option to spend a focus point which upgrades them to "A curse" Which makes them stronger effects, or makes them last longer.

Functionally would be tuning up the focus spell cost versions, then making a cantrip version.

no clue how useful that thought is though. but it would allow for design space. cantrip with the 1/24hr target thing. With the FOcus version allowing for a stronger version-that doesn't have the day limit, or effects more targets at once.

the more targets at once effect would tie well into the Cackle sustain since you could sustain all the targets at once I thinnk?

[Temperans]

Hmm, that is an interesting idea

If word count wasnt a problem, I can see things like Evil Eye working like this: Where it goes from -1/-2 to one stat for 1 to 3 rds when used as a cantrip, but spending the focus turns it into the current version.

But, that (what I described) would be too wordy. At the moment it's a bit hard for me to see how some of then will become weaker and how to then empower them.

But I can see hex cantrips having a "curse effect" [name pending]. Which would activate when spending the focus point.

[Midnightoker]

Corwin Icewolf wrote:

What I found after playing the witch for a session is that the hex that i had(first level, personal blizzard) didn't stay on the weaker enemies long enough to really be useful, and was most effective on the boss enemy that kept knocking out our barbarian (dead in two attacks, in fact.) It did somewhere around 20% of the overall damage to the boss I think.

I’m assuming this was personal blizzard?

Haven’t gotten to play it yet, but it looks very favorable to single targets with high hp.

I think to drive it’s versatility over single target optimum power. If they dropped the difficult terrain or conceal aspect and reduced it to flat splash damage to the chosen and immediately squares that would be at least decent BFC or possibly just extend the difficult terrain or concealment out a square but drop one of the affects.

[Dubious Scholar]

Midnightoker wrote:

Corwin Icewolf wrote:

What I found after playing the witch for a session is that the hex that i had(first level, personal blizzard) didn't stay on the weaker enemies long enough to really be useful, and was most effective on the boss enemy that kept knocking out our barbarian (dead in two attacks, in fact.) It did somewhere around 20% of the overall damage to the boss I think.

I’m assuming this was personal blizzard?

Haven’t gotten to play it yet, but it looks very favorable to single targets with high hp.

I think to drive it’s versatility over single target optimum power. If they dropped the difficult terrain or conceal aspect and reduced it to flat splash damage to the chosen and immediately squares that would be at least decent BFC or possibly just extend the difficult terrain or concealment out a square but drop one of the affects.

Please do not change personal blizzard. It lets a witch single out a target at the start of a fight and completely screw with them and there's nothing they can do about it. It does not allow a save.

They lose 5 feet of movement, they lose the step action entirely (barring abilities), they take damage every turn, and they have to make flat checks to attack. It's just a whole pile of nuisances all at once, it's perfect.

[Midnightoker]

Dubious Scholar wrote:

Please do not change personal blizzard. It lets a witch single out a target at the start of a fight and completely screw with them and there's nothing they can do about it. It does not allow a save.

They lose 5 feet of movement, they lose the step action entirely (barring abilities), they take damage every turn, and they have to make flat checks to attack. It's just a whole pile of nuisances all at once, it's perfect.

That's, IMO, exactly why it isn't perfect.

It's extremely powerful against a single target to the point of forcing a sustain basically every round.

Not to mention stacking it with a rider could be problematic.

For instance, I was building a Witch NPC last night (I know I could just have used the cultist, but I wanted to playtest the class). I made it a Gnoll and I realized pretty quickly that if Pack Tactics applies to Personal Blizzard, it does nuts damage as well as being an amazing debuff.

It doesn't even need riders though. That Hex alone is practically a must if you want the most bang for your buck against any boss or above level enemy.

I'm very aware of what it actually does, I read the hex, so restating what it does and how "good" it is doesn't really address what I was saying.

It's too good against any target with even remotely decent HP. It's particularly bad in a party with a Fighter and a Rogue (who can effectively AoO and Sneak Attack on the regular).

It's a bit much. Considering other frost spells that drop movement, dropping 5 feet, making them concealed, and dealing damage with no save puts it pretty head and shoulders above the other hexes in any case where the enemy has more than 1 round to live.

[Puna'chong]

I'd be cool with some hexes being focus cantrips and some being regular focus spells. Whether it's 1/day on a target should depend on the ability rather than categorically make every hex a 1/day thing. 10 minute immunity is also very effective; my players love using Guidance and have embraced its usefulness as a sort of encounter bonus. I think that's intuitive as well and fits the paradigm 2e seems to be going for

[Dubious Scholar]

I'd argue Evil Eye is pretty strong as well there. I can see where you're coming from though, but if I had to change something I'd probably reduce it to a flat 1 damage (and adjust heightening on it). I'm wondering though if its just that it synergizes really well with those specific classes (as the other martials dont get sneak attack or AoO at 1)

[Midnightoker]

Dubious Scholar wrote:

I'd argue Evil Eye is pretty strong as well there. I can see where you're coming from though, but if I had to change something I'd probably reduce it to a flat 1 damage (and adjust heightening on it). I'm wondering though if its just that it synergizes really well with those specific classes (as the other martials dont get sneak attack or AoO at 1)

Evil Eye is indeed good too.

I don't necessarily think the power of PB is bad, so much as it is extremely strong in certain circumstances and pointless in others (in a mob situation, it's not worth the actions while other cantrips/hexes would be).

I guess not everything is good all the time though.

If it stayed the same I wouldn't lose any sleep though, as long as some of the other ones are looked at for the same.

If hexes are meant to be Single Target monstrosities, then it's perfect as is, but the rest of them should probably reflect that mentality.

Out of all of them, I think PB is probably the most value when it comes to the sustain action. The rest are not nearly as ripe for that.

It'd be cool if Hexes could target areas as well as individual targets or were able to target more than just creatures (cursed vines, cursed bridges/doors, cursed dolls, cursed weapons), but I get those will probably come later.

[Draco18s]

Oh

Oh

Oh

I know what the problem is now. Its not:
- How good Personal Blizzard/Evil Eye/Whatever Hex is against Single-Target/Multi-target/Other Situation
- Cackle potential
- Choices of several good options

The problem is that you get ONE hex to start with. If you grab one that's good against little guys for X reason, you get hosed against bosses because Y. If you grab one that's good against bosses for Y reason, you get hosed against little guys because X.

There's no potential to be able to make a decision about which hex to use until you get a second focus spell. In PF1 you could mitigate this some with Extra Hex (depending on how you decided to advance) but by 4th level you had several options to pick between where at least one of them was good for "the situation right now."

Admittedly that was probably "Slumber is always good" and "Evil Eye + Cackle is always good" or whatever flavor you decided was "best" (I saw guides promoting Misfortune) and even in situations it wasn't the Absolute Best, it still had non-zero value. At 2nd you could pick up a second option out of that list with Extra Hex. Then at 3rd, you got a third option. Still needed another? Extra Hex at 4th. And there was very little else to spend your feats on, so you may as well pick up All The Hexes.

PF2 has a lot heavier restrictions on how many different hexes you can know and the number of times you can use them.

I've got nothing against Focus spells, but I think we were all expecting hexes to be cantrips and we're comparing their utility to that of cantrips.

[WatersLethe]

Agreed, Draco18s. I firmly believe that the Focus paradigm is insufficient to cater to the needs of Hexes. Some hexes can be Focus spells, but locking them all behind that mechanic is *astoundingly* restrictive compared to what I would expect.

To me, hexes are the premiere Witch thing. I didn't play Witches in PF1 for their spell list, even though it was interesting, I played them to have hexes.

I believe being able to pick up several cantrip hexes and some powerful focus hexes would go a long, long way to making the class feel right to me. I think by level 4 every witch should have at least three hexes, two cantrip hexes and one potent focus hex.

[Midnightoker]

I also agree with Draco18s, varied options would certainly allow for versatility and thus make the "too specialized" feel much more palatable.

On the fifth level Witch I made, the "I have to take this feat" was second lesson at level 4.

[Draco18s]

Midnightoker wrote:

On the fifth level Witch I made, the "I have to take this feat" was second lesson at level 4.

Looking at the available 4th level feats:

- Gain an unarmed melee claw attack
- Gain a hex/focus point
- Gain the benefits of Cover Tracks in [specific environ]

Only one of those is even remotely worth it.

Both 6s are pretty good (one's better than the other, but the level 8 options are garbage, so skip the 8ths and pick up the other 6th). After 10th there's so many options to gaining your 3rd focus point/hex that you can pretty much pick it up whenever you don't like the alternative (probably 14th, because Reflect Spell relies on Counterspell, and counterspelling is awful and no one should bother in the vast majority of situations outside of "automatically").

[Megistone]

The very first thing I thought when I finished reading the witch rules was: "So few hexes to choose from, and so few you can eventually have!"
The second: "Using focus to cast hexes is cool, but the PF1 witch feels much different because you can cast most of them at will. Why don't we have hex cantrips?"
And the obvious resulting thought: "Having lessons give both a cantrip hex and a focus hex would be a great solution!"

[MaxAstro]

I think for flavor reasons witch should probably have hex cantrips - although perhaps a smart way to do it would be for each hex to have a cantrip form and then you can spend a Focus point to make it stronger? Sorta like how Spheres of Magic works with its "cantrip" effects.

Although people should be realistic about what the power of cantrip hexes will be. I was disappointed that Evil Eye wasn't at will, until I realized you basically have to pick one:

*Evil Eye is roughly as strong as Goblin Song
*Evil Eye costs a Focus point