Hexes: Is Focus + 1 / target / day too restrictive?

[Temperans]

So this is something I just realized.

Bards had a pool of rds that they could use to perform any of their performances which are AoE and not 1/target/day. Now they have a mix of unlimited and limited uses which are usually AoE and not 1/target/day.

Witches had a to pick options that were usually unlimited single target and 1/target/day. Now they have limited uses which are single target 1/target/day.

In short, Bards now have unlimited performance uses while Witches have limited uses of hexes.

[Loreguard]

Interesting option for Hex Cantrips (cantrips with the Hex trait).

The idea being they would be cantrips you learn, and can cast, but with the requirement that you must have a focus point remaining to cast them. However, unlike focus hex spells, they do not Consume the focus point.

In this way they can be stronger than some cantrips, and definitely more flavorful, but help bring back some of the all-day nature of the first edition witch hexes.

[Dubious Scholar]

Loreguard wrote:

Interesting option for Hex Cantrips (cantrips with the Hex trait).

The idea being they would be cantrips you learn, and can cast, but with the requirement that you must have a focus point remaining to cast them. However, unlike focus hex spells, they do not Consume the focus point.

In this way they can be stronger than some cantrips, and definitely more flavorful, but help bring back some of the all-day nature of the first edition witch hexes.

That just makes the last focus point needlessly punishing to spend. I'm not a fan of the grit/panache 1+ stuff in 1e for the same reason. Anything that makes spending a resource more painful is bad - people already hold off on burning resources as is.

[DougSeay]

Dubious Scholar wrote:

That just makes the last focus point needlessly punishing to spend. I'm not a fan of the grit/panache 1+ stuff in 1e for the same reason. Anything that makes spending a resource more painful is bad - people already hold off on burning resources as is.

Agreed. I like cantrip hexes for weak, spam all day effects that are relatively small, plus focus hexes for the bigger stuff. I don't see any reason to limit the first because you have no mojo for the second.

[Ross Orion]

I really like a lot of what I'm reading here on how to improve hexes. One thing I've been rolling around and that I haven't seen posted yet is what if the first hex you learned was the hex cantrip and all subsequent ones require the focus point? That way you always have an ability you can use that sets you apart. Then add a second level feat to grant a second hex and more feats at higher levels (8th, 12th, 16th?) to make additional cantrips and you've got yourself a heck of a lot of build potential. Combine that with making Cackle more useful and this class winds up being pretty darn good

[Midnightoker]

What if hexes were always cantrips, but if you spend a focus point they gain a new effect? That would be different while still granting all day access.

Maybe hexes become “curses” when amplified in this way.

[Tunu40]

Midnightoker wrote:

What if hexes were always cantrips, but if you spend a focus point they gain a new effect? That would be different while still granting all day access.

Maybe hexes become “curses” when amplified in this way.

Cackle could then be an a witch’s “overdrive” mechanism. Make it cost a focus point?

Cackling because I just sent my enemy into even greater pain...fits in my imaginary scene.

[BigHatMarisa]

I like the idea of having both Hex Cantrips and Focus Hexes. It keeps the whole "casters have a focus pool of limited unique powers" consistency of PF2 and also slightly ports over the all-day utility of a Witch in PF1. I think this would be a good middle ground for a lot of people currently concerned with the class as-is right now. I'm on board!

Speaking to the other idea of cantrips that have additional effects when using FP, I don't think wordiness and space constraints would be a problem. You'd just use the section that Heightened effects usually occupy, and treat them as those spells' Heightened effects.

[Claudius16309]

Isn't a hex cantrip a...cantrip?

[Temperans]

Well in PF2 there are cantrips and there are focus cantrips.

Cantrips work as normal for any caster, but focus cantrips are effectively 0 cost focus spells.

Hex cantrips would be focus cantrips with the Hex trait; Similar to a Bard's Composition cantrips which are focus cantrips with the Composition trait.

The composition trait changes how the cantrip works for the bard.

[DougSeay]

Claudius16309 wrote:

Isn't a hex cantrip a...cantrip?

Yes. Normally cantrips are tied to specific traditions. The hex cantrips would be tied to patrons, so might be a bit more mix and match.

[Draco18s]

Note: there are not currently any "hex cantrips." All current hexes are Focus 1+

[Anguish]

Honestly, the bard's inspire courage cantrip feels more witch-like than any of the hexes in the playtest.

I'd far rather see hexes built as low-power at-will abilities than focus powers that get used once per encounter.

Maybe make a hex one action to "cast" and give it that trait that can only be done once per round, make cackle two actions to maintain running hexes, and a witch will have to think long and hard about other actions such as casting spells at the cost of the ending hex-stack they can bring up one-per-round.

Hex, move, attack.
Hex, cackle.
Hex, cackle.
Hex, cackle.
Move, cackle.
Cast a spell, hex.

Be creative with the action economy that's been created, and less reliant on focus spells.

That's my take.

[Rysky]

Evil Eye being a constant -1 they could maintain every round would be neat.

[siegfriedliner]

Dirge of doom seems like a witch power just change the name to Maddening Cackles and your done.