Natural Attacks build, Barbarian or Bloodrager?


Advice


As the title says which class would do better at using natural attacks and how get more of them? the race is already set as abyss tiefling with maw or claw to get a bite so abyssal bloodline bloodrager is quite flavorful and it nets me two claws and a bite and enlarge person when raging, an enlarge person that doesn't care if I'm humanoid or native outsider.

Barbarian however isn't a pushover, beast totem also gives claws and pounce on top of that which is the dream of most melee characters and a some rage powers are awesome to say the least.

Feats so far include Raging vitality and power attack, lunge is also under consideration for the bloodrager as well as arcane strike.

Before you suggest it, Primalist isn't an option as this guy is supposed to be pfs legal and I'm just making this build up to level 12, it's unlikely that the game will last beyond that point.

Any suggestion about feats and so on is welcomed too.


Uh, I see the Abyssal Bloodling grants Claws and Enlarge Person. Maw or Claw can give you a Bite, and then you can get an Animal Mask or Helm of the Mammoth Lord for a Gore.

I'm not sure the best way to do this if I have to choose between Barbarian and Bloodrager. My instinct says those Bloodrager will make all the difference.

Neither would be my first choice for a Natural Attack Build. I would go with a Tengu Warpriest with 2 Claws and a Bite, and do Sacred Weapon Damage with all my natural Attacks. I'd pick up a Gore Attack with the Barbarian Lesser Fiend Totem Rage Power or just a Helm of the Mammoth Lord. I'd pick up a Hair Attack with a level in White Haired Witch. I'd dip a level in Ranger and a level in Living Monolith to Enlarge Person and use a Wand of Strong Jaw.

Or I'd be a Druid/Warpriest and do kind of the same thing only Wildshaping into an Allosaurus or an Arsinotherium, and getting either claws and a Bite or a Gore attack with Rage Powers and do Sacred Weapon Damage with all of them except the Arsinotherium Gore, of course.

My favorite thing to Wilshape into is a Giant Octopus, but it's not practical to take Multiattack in PFS, and you'd need Multiattack.


I think that you can only pick an specific sacred weapon not the whole natural weapon category, it's like weapon focus, in fact if it's as I'm understanding it you should need to take as many weapon focus as different natural weapons you have to have them all as sacred weapons and that's a too extreme feat investment.

The Hair attack seems interesting however, I rather avoid MC but using your hair as weapon is just too awesome to pass xD


Lawful neutral Hag-Riven Bloodrager with Spirit Oni Master feat and a racial bite attack is pretty good.


Aleister VII wrote:

As the title says which class would do better at using natural attacks and how get more of them? the race is already set as abyss tiefling with maw or claw to get a bite so abyssal bloodline bloodrager is quite flavorful and it nets me two claws and a bite and enlarge person when raging, an enlarge person that doesn't care if I'm humanoid or native outsider.

Barbarian however isn't a pushover, beast totem also gives claws and pounce on top of that which is the dream of most melee characters and a some rage powers are awesome to say the least.

Feats so far include Raging vitality and power attack, lunge is also under consideration for the bloodrager as well as arcane strike.

Before you suggest it, Primalist isn't an option as this guy is supposed to be pfs legal and I'm just making this build up to level 12, it's unlikely that the game will last beyond that point.

Any suggestion about feats and so on is welcomed too.

I can't recall if tieflings count as humanoids or not, but assuming they do I'd suggest taking a look at the mooncursed archetype if you decide to go the barbarian route. You can pick tiger which nets you a bite, two claw attacks and pounce all without having to take the animal totem powers. It means you can grab the dragon totem instead which eventually nets you the ability to fly when you rage (at the cost of extra rage rounds).


Tieflings are native outsiders, not humanoids.

There's an alternate racial trait to count as humanoid, but I don't know off the top of my head if it's PFS legal.

Off the top of my head I'd say Bloodrager is probably the better choice, if nothing else that Enlarge is going to be quite powerful.


Aleister VII wrote:
I think that you can only pick an specific sacred weapon not the whole natural weapon category,

True

Aleister VII wrote:
it's like weapon focus, in fact if it's as I'm understanding it you should need to take as many weapon focus as different natural weapons you have to have them all as sacred weapons

Just about, but it's not as bad as you might think. You also get Sacred Weapon for your Deity's Favored Weapon, so you can pick a deity whose favored weapon is Bite. A Barbarian Gore Attack from Lesser Fiend Totem does 1d8 even without Sacred Weapon Damage, so there'd be no need to take that before level 5 Warpriest.

Aleister VII wrote:
and that's a too extreme feat investment.

I think it's worth it, but if you don't, that's cool.

Aleister VII wrote:
The Hair attack seems interesting however, I rather avoid MC but using your hair as weapon is just too awesome to pass xD

White Hair has a lot of Awesome potential.


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Aleister VII wrote:
As the title says which class would do better at using natural attacks and how get more of them?

For a natural attack build, you go pounce or you go home. Because the damage of a natural attack build comes from having a bunch of them (at full BAB), which obviously doesn't help you if you have to move and make a single attack half the rounds.

LordKailas wrote:
I can't recall if tieflings count as humanoids or not, but assuming they do I'd suggest taking a look at the mooncursed archetype if you decide to go the barbarian route. You can pick tiger which nets you a bite, two claw attacks and pounce all without having to take the animal totem powers.

Tieflings are native outsiders, but could select the archetype via the Pass for Human racial trait. Edit: Yes, it's PFS legal. It prevents selecting the maw and claw racial traits, but a Mooncursed doesn't need them anyway.

Good idea, "wrong" archetype. Mooncursed is mostly for those who want to use both weapons and natural attacks. Much better for a normal natural attack build is Beastkin Berserker, which gains Beast Shape II and thus pounce at 8th level, two levels before a regular barbarian and three levels before a Mooncursed, and where Mooncursed replaces the usual bonuses form Rage with those granted by the polymorph effect, Beastkin Berserker grants you both at the same time. Main downside is that Beastkin Berserker has pretty poor armor. Luckily, the archetype stacks with Invulnerable Rager! You should still have a buddy you can hand a Wand of Mage Armor, though.

Feat suggestions: Raging Vitality (unless you pick unchained Barbarian), Power Attack, Chaos Reigns (bonus attack!).
Rage Power suggestions: Superstition, Lesser Fiend Totem (extra attack!), Greater Elemental Blood (Air) and prereqs.

Aleister VII wrote:
It means you can grab the dragon totem instead which eventually nets you the ability to fly when you rage (at the cost of extra rage rounds).

Greater Elemental Blood (Air) is better anyway.


I see a lot of pretty nice info alñ around, thanks guys!

I'm almost sure to go barbarian for the pounce but O didn't knew about hag riven, I love the changeling flavor so I'll look into that one too.


Aleister VII wrote:

I see a lot of pretty nice info alñ around, thanks guys!

I'm almost sure to go barbarian for the pounce but O didn't knew about hag riven, I love the changeling flavor so I'll look into that one too.

Bloodragers pounce too! At 13th level, you can cast Monstrous Physique II, which grants you pounce if you shape into a Tikbalang.


Derklord wrote:
Aleister VII wrote:
As the title says which class would do better at using natural attacks and how get more of them?
For a natural attack build, you go pounce or you go home. Because the damage of a natural attack build comes from having a bunch of them (at full BAB), which obviously doesn't help you if you have to move and make a single attack half the rounds.

That's an interesting point: in combats where you have to keep moving from opponent to opponent as they die in front of you, and you have to move on to the next, your effective Damage per Round does go up if you can Charge and Full Attack.

But if the reason why my DPR is not what it ought to be is that my enemies wither away so fast under my storm of teeth and claws, that I keep constantly having to move on to the next, well, I have problems in my life I'd trade for that.


Scott Wilhelm wrote:

That's an interesting point: in combats where you have to keep moving from opponent to opponent as they die in front of you, and you have to move on to the next, your effective Damage per Round does go up if you can Charge and Full Attack.

But if the reason why my DPR is not what it ought to be is that my enemies wither away so fast under my storm of teeth and claws, that I keep constantly having to move on to the next, well, I have problems in my life I'd trade for that.

If you can kill the target in one full attack, a non-pounce build needs two rounds, a pounce build needs only one. That makes the latter twice as effective. If it takes two full attacks to kill the target, a pounce build is 50% more effective - unless a full attack is only one attack short of killing the target (in which case both are equal); this doesn't happen that often, though. Of course, you longer you spend on a target, the lighter the impact of pounce is, but in practise, enemes usually don't live that long. Any fight agains a couple of strong enemies heavily favors pounce. Any fight with a bunch of moderately strong mooks (i.e. too tough to die in one attack) heavily favors pounce. Any fight against enemies with stronger offense than defense heavily favors pounce.

All melee characters have this problem, but for weapon users without Flurry/TWF, the difference between a single attack and a full attack is somewhat smaller (due to the iterative penalty).


Derklord wrote:
Scott Wilhelm wrote:

That's an interesting point: in combats where you have to keep moving from opponent to opponent as they die in front of you, and you have to move on to the next, your effective Damage per Round does go up if you can Charge and Full Attack.

But if the reason why my DPR is not what it ought to be is that my enemies wither away so fast under my storm of teeth and claws, that I keep constantly having to move on to the next, well, I have problems in my life I'd trade for that.

If you can kill the target in one full attack, a non-pounce build needs two rounds, a pounce build needs only one. That makes the latter twice as effective. If it takes two full attacks to kill the target, a pounce build is 50% more effective - unless a full attack is only one attack short of killing the target (in which case both are equal); this doesn't happen that often, though. Of course, you longer you spend on a target, the lighter the impact of pounce is, but in practise, enemes usually don't live that long. Any fight agains a couple of strong enemies heavily favors pounce. Any fight with a bunch of moderately strong mooks (i.e. too tough to die in one attack) heavily favors pounce. Any fight against enemies with stronger offense than defense heavily favors pounce.

All melee characters have this problem, but for weapon users without Flurry/TWF, the difference between a single attack and a full attack is somewhat smaller (due to the iterative penalty).

I don't strongly disagree with you. In fact, I don't disagree on a single piece of evidence you offered, nor your mathematical results.

I'm just raising the point that if you are losing out on attacks round-by-round because you are dropping them just that fast, then that probably means you are winning anyway, more than winning, dominating the encounter, and while I agree that in that situation, in a Pounce build, you will be winning by more, I'm not so sure that that's the direction to take your character build in. Once I have built the character so that is killing opponents as fast that the limiting factor is that he has to move up to them, maybe it's time to take a story feat or something.


I would suggest a different class entirely; I am not sure if it's more powerfull, but I think it's a least more versatile (and at the very least it give you another option): Magus Eldricht Scion with whatever bloodline you want (probably one that give you claws but not necessarily cause you will get naturals attacks with spells); the idea is to use Alter Self (at level 4) then Monstrous Physique I at 7 and II at 10.
There is a quite a few form that give 3, 4, 5 or more naturals attacks.

The Exchange

if you're willing to check out other classes, you might want to check out Alchemist. Beastmorph or even just using Feral Mutagen. There is a lot of added versatility with Extracts and Discoveries... (Wings at 6th level, extra limbs to add in a Shield, access to crafting for Academical items)

My wife runs a Beastmorph Feral Mutagen Alchemist that is surprisingly effective. Even if she says "I'm not THAT kind of Alchemist..." every time someone asks about bombs...

In fact, she inspired me to build my own - but I multi-classed it with Barbarian and it really doesn't feel quite as effective...


Tossing this here in case you just want to load up on a lot of attacks:

Salamander Bloodrager / Kraken-Caller Druid

2 x Claw -- Tiefling
1 x Tail Slap -- Bloodrager Bloodline (lvl 1)
2 x Tentacle -- Wild Shape alternate (lvl 4; up to 4x at lvl 8)
1 x Bite -- Ring of Rat Fangs (5000 gp) or Adopted/Tusked (Trait)
1 x Gore -- Helm of Mammoth Lord (8500 gp)

You should only need 4 levels of Druid and the Shaping Focus feat will do the rest. This should get you 3 Tentacle attacks at level 6 and 4 Tentacle attacks at level 8 for a total of 9 natural attacks (although your Tentacle attacks will be Secondary attacks). A level of White-Haired Witch will get you another Primary natural attack if you're intent on pushing this number to 10.


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I'm well aware of feral mutagen alchemist and transforming magus and I love them,I was just looking for a new and unexpected ways of natural attacking.

The kraken druid idea is interesting but I'd rather give it a lovecraftian flavor, tentacles you know xD


Aleister VII wrote:
I'm well aware of feral mutagen alchemist and transforming magus and I love them, I was just looking for a new and unexpected ways of natural attacking.

How about transforming Alchemist? I'm mostly kidding, you really want Deathsnatcher for that.

@Scott: How long do you want to spend on a mook? I'm beginning to suspect your games are super low powered, which would explain quite a lot, actually.
Your argument is also actually pro-pounce, because the power level difference is so big, you have way more leverage for flavor feats instead of mechanical feats on a pounce build.


Derklord wrote:
@Scott: How long do you want to spend on a mook? I'm beginning to suspect your games are super low powered, which would explain quite a lot, actually.

I would say I come from a tradition of GMs who were schooled to be stingy with treasure and experience points. I'd say this carries over in Pathfinder Society as well: GMs are constantly trying to find this aspect or that of my characters illegal because they believe them to be too powerful, so it's ironic that you are saying my characters are not hard enough!

Also, I wouldn't characterize the difference here as "high-powered" vs. "low-powered." I'd characterize it as "easy" or "hard." I am used to GMs that are hard, that are stingy with treasure, and when the treasure is there, it is hiding in the form of valuable merchandize that you can only find with a successful Appraise Check, in campaigns where magic items are not available at market prices, but only placed to be found by the players at the pleasure of the GM. I'm used to classically diabolical GMs whose adventure hooks are misdirections more often than not, who get evil gleams in their eyes when they ask, "Are you sleeping in your Armor?" I never build a character with an Animal Companion or a Mount because the only purpose they ever serve in campaigns I'm in is to give the GMs something to kill when he doesn't want to kill you.

I @ my GM wrote:
You keep killing my animals!
my GM wrote:
Scott, why do you think I keep giving them to you?
Derklord wrote:
Your argument is also actually pro-pounce, because the power level difference is so big, you have way more leverage for flavor feats instead of mechanical feats on a pounce build.

Like I said, I'm not arguing with your based on your facts or math. I'm just saying that it seems to me you are describing an easy campaign, one where your opponents wither under your attacks so fast you are missing out on attacks as you destroy one foe and have to move on to the next, and if you are fighting multiple mooks, they don't have time to gang up on you and get Full Attacked because you are dropping them so fast.

I have 1 or 2 skirmishing character builds that run around the battlefield scoring bonus attacks with other means and can also score several Attacks on single opponents, but I don't think they fit the OP's desires. Maybe I can think of one.


Pounce and a lot of options really, seem to be more important if your whole party takes down enemies super fast. This could be from a lot of factors such as: party size, optimization and how difficult the enemies your DM uses tends to be.

And it's not like having pounce guarantees you get to use pounce every fight. Things like terrain and other creatures can keep you from pouncing a lot of the time. There are a few options besides pounce too. The bloodrager can boast a pretty big reach, which can be as good as pounce on average


Scott Wilhelm wrote:
GMs are constantly trying to find this aspect or that of my characters illegal because they believe them to be too powerful, so it's ironic that you are saying my characters are not hard enough!

I haven't actually played it, but from what's I've heard, it's not hard to make something that's very powerful in PFS.

I think you're mixing up some things. You make it sound like a pounce build was only good at easy game, and not in your style of games, but in reality, it's actually the opposite - the harder the game is regarding loot and stuff, the bigger a role your character build plays, and thus the more you want pounce. Indeed, you're reinforcing my presumption that you tend to play relatively low powered games, because in high powered games that are hard, you need this level of optimization to succeed; exactly because you get overrun by mooks )and quickly killed by anythign else) otherwise. If the GM doesn't meticulously adjust difficulty (see next paragraph), high optimization is what makes the game 'easy'. Mooks only "don't have time to gang up on you and get Full Attacked because you are dropping them so fast" because of pounce. This doesn't have to actually make the game easier, because you now can take more non-combat feats and equipment without the game becoming too hard, giving you more tools to flesh out your character.

Of course, I'm writing under the presumption that the GM doesn't completely invalidate any choice a player makes by adjusting the enemies accordingly (e.g. giving every enemy a +1 AC in response to you taking Weapon Focus), because if that's the case, it doesn't matter what you do with your character, and you could just as well play a Commoner without feats.

The OP asked about what would do better at using natural attacks, which I interpret as an interest in (some degree of) optimization, and for that, the answer is "go pounce or you go home". It doesn't matter if the game is easy or hard, low-powered or high-powered, pounce is best for a natural attack build (unless you're spending like 10 rounds on every enemy). Also not counting oddities like Cave Druid into Carnivorous Crystal or anything polymorphing into Yig.

­

Melkiador wrote:
Pounce and a lot of options really, seem to be more important if your whole party takes down enemies super fast.

If the pounce build takes 5 rounds to kill the enemy (meaning pounce only helps 20% of the time), a non-pounce build needs ~23% more damage per full attack (for example, ~+5 to all damage rolls) to do the same damage.

Melkiador wrote:
The bloodrager can boast a pretty big reach, which can be as good as pounce on average

With natural attacks?

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