Multi classing question


Advice


I have read over the multi classing a little.

I wanted to ask a few questions.

1) Can a human multiclass at first level?

2) And does anyone have a 4th level build of a multi class character?

I am really trying to understand how many feats and of which class or ancestry work together so I don't over power or under power a character.

I am trying to make a fighter with a cleric subclass, (I know I can make a paladin but this is a recreation of an original DnD character that has been reincarnated for every RPG I have played.

Thanks in advance


With regards to multiclassing at first level, as far as I can tell, no. The multiclass dedication stuff needs to be at level two at minimum.


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As an addendum, it is, however, possible to multiclass as an elf at first level. Ancient Elf heritage be awesome like that.


Technically, you can take a Multiclass feat whenever you qualify, though for now that's only at 2nd or higher other than the Elf Ancestry Feat which circumvents that.

With Fighter as the base class, don't worry about being underpowered since its main strengths are locked in place (assuming you start w/ 18 Str). The Fighter feats offer more breadth, tactical efficiency & control, and tricks than they do sheer power.
That said, taking a Cleric MCD chain can do that too, albeit in a different way.

There are three solid paths:
1. Just take the first Cleric MCD feat. This opens up a wands, scrolls, some skills, and Cantrips. That's a lot for a feat and leaves you plenty of feats for Fighter breadth & trickery.

2. That plus a focus spell. Focus spells level w/ you and recharge which means you can get a lot of decent casting per day out of this if you find a Cleric Focus Spell you like. Avoid the offensive ones, since your attack & save DCs will be below sub-par. You'll still be able to have a couple of attack patterns via Fighter feats.

3. Go all out and take those spellcasting feats (and maybe Focus spells too). The payoff comes later when your spell slots add up, but it's pretty significant. Being able to Heal yourself (and still get a Strike in) is nice, as is casting Heroism, Air Bubble, or other buffs on yourself (depending on party composition, etc.). The feats will increase your casting proficiency so you might even sneak in an AoE or offensive Focus Spell for variety. Go 16 Wis if taking this route.
You're giving up many of the attack patterns available, though should still be able to get those key feats for your main Fighter shtick.

Cheers

Shadow Lodge

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Castilliano wrote:
Technically, you can take a Multiclass feat whenever you qualify, though for now that's only at 2nd or higher other than the Elf Ancestry Feat which circumvents that.

Minor but important clarification: Ancient Elf is a Heritage, not an ancestry feat.

I am aware of three 'variations' on multi-classing:

  • Take the appropriate Multiclass Archetype Dedication feat in place of a class feat, which requires you to be at least second level and have a 14 or higher in one or more specific ability scores.
  • Have the Ancient Elf heritage at character creation, which allows you to skip the archetype prerequisites (Note that this does not appear to be PFS Legal at this time).
  • Humans at level 9+ can take the Multitalented Ancestry Feat to get a multiclass Archtype Dedication even if they already have one without the required 'two additional feat' to multiclass again (note that if you are a half-elf, you don't even need to meet the Dedication feat prerequisites).

The major thing to keep in mind is that most multiclass abilities don't scale automatically, so you'll need to keep taking the archetype feats if you actually want to be good at your second class's features (Cantrips are the one major exception to this). This makes multiclassing highly variable: My rogue MC'd into Cleric at levels two and four, but I'm not seeing an opportunity to take another Cleric feat for quite a while (Rogue feats at 6, 8, 10, and 12 look pretty good to me).


Right, as Taja said.

I suppose for clarity, my advice would be don't dabble in spellcasting feats because they don't scale well unless you go the whole route.
Either dip first feat, first feat + focus feat (or two), or the whole shebang.


Castilliano wrote:

Right, as Taja said.

I suppose for clarity, my advice would be don't dabble in spellcasting feats because they don't scale well unless you go the whole route.
Either dip first feat, first feat + focus feat (or two), or the whole shebang.

Unless you're focusing on buffing and utility spells that don't need any attack rolls or saves. Neat thing about cleric is that the divine list has quite a few handy buffing spells and you can also poach a few outside of your tradition depending on which deity you are worshiping.


God, that elf heritage is definitely the real deal.


K1 wrote:
God, that elf heritage is definitely the real deal.

Only if you want both a first and second level from your class more than you want a heritage. Otherwise, you’re better off with something else.

Remember that the dedication will still lock you in, so you cannot take other dedications, and all other feats in it require level 4.

Liberty's Edge

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K1 wrote:
God, that elf heritage is definitely the real deal.

You can say that again. I personally anticipate an immense wave of new PFS Characters who are all Ancient Elves. The selection itself is so good it straight-up blows Natural Ambition, which has until now been considered the best 1st level charcter selection hands down, out of the water.


Themetricsystem wrote:
K1 wrote:
God, that elf heritage is definitely the real deal.
You can say that again. I personally anticipate an immense wave of new PFS Characters who are all Ancient Elves. The selection itself is so good it straight-up blows Natural Ambition, which has until now been considered the best 1st level charcter selection hands down, out of the water.

Definitely.

I am just a little bit disappointing that a perk like this is linked to a heritage.

Which means that every player who would like to start with a multiclass will be forced to play an ancient elf.

And if you think that you could get a dedication after few weeks of play, it seems definitely a non sense reason ( not to consider that would be perfectly Normal for a character to be competent in more than 1 class ).

This regardless any possible homerule.

Ps:Also, it is way better to take dedication feats at low lvls, because when you are elegible for a class feat, depends your lvl the choice could be way higher.


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...right... sure... uhu...

Tell ya what. Let’s draw a picture.

Without ancient elf:
Lv1: heritage, class feat
Lv2: dedication
Lv4: multiclass feat

With ancient elf:
Lv1: dedication, class feat
Lv2: class feat
Lv4: multiclass feat

?????

You can get class feats in many ways. You only get heritages once. No retraining.

It’s a good heritage, but requires you to understand how multiclassing works - praising it like the end all be all of multiclassing, in a thread where someone asks for help to understand it, turns it into nothing short of a newbie trap.
Don’t be like that.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Having to wait for your 2nd character level in order to multiclass isn't such a terrible thing.

And IMHO fighters, rogues and other martial or semi-martial characters can get a lot of mileage out of just one MC wizard or sorcerer dedication feat, even if they never ever take another MC feat in their career.

Personally, I like wizard better, because you can potentially get a whole slew of cantrips in your spellbook, and cherry-pick the 2 you want on a given adventuring day.


Ediwir wrote:

...right... sure... uhu...

Tell ya what. Let’s draw a picture.

Without ancient elf:
Lv1: heritage, class feat
Lv2: dedication
Lv4: multiclass feat

With ancient elf:
Lv1: dedication, class feat
Lv2: class feat
Lv4: multiclass feat

?????

You can get class feats in many ways. You only get heritages once. No retraining.

It’s a good heritage, but requires you to understand how multiclassing works - praising it like the end all be all of multiclassing, in a thread where someone asks for help to understand it, turns it into nothing short of a newbie trap.
Don’t be like that.

Absolutely not.

I could take 1st dedication

and 2nd lvl Basic stuff

Then go from 4 on with more interesting main class perks.

Don't even try to belittle what a heritage like this could do.

Simply don't.
Yuk

Because of lvl 1 dedication, that specific heritage is allowed to do those specific choices.

You are simply arguing that "not necessarily you will be taking a 1st dedication", which is a fraud argument.

Lvl 1 heritage
Lvl 2 Basic dedication feat

Lvl 4. A lvl 4 main class feat

Vs

Lvl 1 class feat ( you will have a way thinner feat pool than lvl 4 )

Lvl 2 dedication

Lvl 4 Basic dedication feat.

If you can't see the difference, you are definitely trolling.


Styrix wrote:
What does the dedication feat get you? I’m still very new, and don’t understand the intricacies of multiclassing.

Depends the dedication.

Could be cantrips, a barbarian rage, some skill or even weapon/armor competence.

It is mostly a placeholder, in order to start taking feats from a specific class.

Shadow Lodge

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K1 wrote:
Ediwir wrote:

...right... sure... uhu...

Tell ya what. Let’s draw a picture.

Without ancient elf:
Lv1: heritage, class feat
Lv2: dedication
Lv4: multiclass feat

With ancient elf:
Lv1: dedication, class feat
Lv2: class feat
Lv4: multiclass feat

?????

You can get class feats in many ways. You only get heritages once. No retraining.

It’s a good heritage, but requires you to understand how multiclassing works - praising it like the end all be all of multiclassing, in a thread where someone asks for help to understand it, turns it into nothing short of a newbie trap.
Don’t be like that.

Absolutely not.

I could take 1st dedication

and 2nd lvl Basic stuff

Then go from 4 on with more interesting main class perks.

Don't even try to belittle what a heritage like this could do.

Simply don't.
Yuk

Because of lvl 1 dedication, that specific heritage is allowed to do those specific choices.

You are simply arguing that "not necessarily you will be taking a 1st dedication", which is a fraud argument.

Lvl 1 heritage
Lvl 2 Basic dedication feat

Lvl 4. A lvl 4 main class feat

Vs

Lvl 1 class feat ( you will have a way thinner feat pool than lvl 4 )

Lvl 2 dedication

Lvl 4 Basic dedication feat.

If you can't see the difference, you are definitely trolling.

Ancient Elf: You essentially trade the bonus you might have gotten from a different heritage for a Multiclass Dedication feat.

Everyone Else: You essentially trade your Level 2 (or higher) class feat for a Multiclass Dedication feat.

In a lot of cases, a different heritage bonus might be better for you than your level 2 class feat options, so I'd expect your mileage to vary...


Taja the Barbarian wrote:
K1 wrote:
Ediwir wrote:

...right... sure... uhu...

Tell ya what. Let’s draw a picture.

Without ancient elf:
Lv1: heritage, class feat
Lv2: dedication
Lv4: multiclass feat

With ancient elf:
Lv1: dedication, class feat
Lv2: class feat
Lv4: multiclass feat

?????

You can get class feats in many ways. You only get heritages once. No retraining.

It’s a good heritage, but requires you to understand how multiclassing works - praising it like the end all be all of multiclassing, in a thread where someone asks for help to understand it, turns it into nothing short of a newbie trap.
Don’t be like that.

Absolutely not.

I could take 1st dedication

and 2nd lvl Basic stuff

Then go from 4 on with more interesting main class perks.

Don't even try to belittle what a heritage like this could do.

Simply don't.
Yuk

Because of lvl 1 dedication, that specific heritage is allowed to do those specific choices.

You are simply arguing that "not necessarily you will be taking a 1st dedication", which is a fraud argument.

Lvl 1 heritage
Lvl 2 Basic dedication feat

Lvl 4. A lvl 4 main class feat

Vs

Lvl 1 class feat ( you will have a way thinner feat pool than lvl 4 )

Lvl 2 dedication

Lvl 4 Basic dedication feat.

If you can't see the difference, you are definitely trolling.

Ancient Elf: You essentially trade the bonus you might have gotten from a different heritage for a Multiclass Dedication feat.

Everyone Else: You essentially trade your Level 2 (or higher) class feat for a Multiclass Dedication feat.

In a lot of cases, a different heritage bonus might be better for you than your level 2 class feat options, so I'd expect your mileage to vary...

Yeah it's a great heritage. On my table everyone thought it was OP... But by the end it seems that it is just a bit more powerful than the usual, but not like it is the broken heritage, seems to be in line with Natural Ambition. The 'strongest option' in most cases but not the best option in most cases.


@Taja: I think you don't understand

Imagine a character which has lvl 1 and lvl 2 not so good feats, or simply feats he doesn't like to take.

He can start by saving a feat and increase his lvl to get high lvl class feats.

To make an example,

I could go as champion

Lvl 1 fighter dedication / ranged reprisal

Lvl 2 Basic maneuver

Lvl 4 aura of courage

Lvl 6 divine smite

Etc. ..

Without that elf heritage i will have to sacrifice 1 between aura of courage, which requires lvl 4, or divine smite, which requires lvl 6.

It is simply strong.

Also, it is the only heritage which would allow you to do something like this.


@oholoko: can't you go for it by using adopted ancestry?

However I am not saying that will be always op ( you could prefer anything else ). The point is that it is unique.

You want to do that?
You have necessarily to go for that elf.


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K1 wrote:

@Taja: I think you don't understand

Imagine a character which has lvl 1 and lvl 2 not so good feats, or simply feats he doesn't like to take.

He can start by saving a feat and increase his lvl to get high lvl class feats.

To make an example,

I could go as champion

Lvl 1 fighter dedication / ranged reprisal

Lvl 2 Basic maneuver

Lvl 4 aura of courage

Lvl 6 divine smite

Etc. ..

Without that elf heritage i will have to sacrifice 1 between aura of courage, which requires lvl 4, or divine smite, which requires lvl 6.

It is simply strong.

Also, it is the only heritage which would allow you to do something like this.

Yeahhhhh but actually no.

Basic maneuver is a level 4 feat... Made the same mistake at my group. There's no second level class feat outside of the dedication for multiclass.


oholoko wrote:
K1 wrote:

@Taja: I think you don't understand

Imagine a character which has lvl 1 and lvl 2 not so good feats, or simply feats he doesn't like to take.

He can start by saving a feat and increase his lvl to get high lvl class feats.

To make an example,

I could go as champion

Lvl 1 fighter dedication / ranged reprisal

Lvl 2 Basic maneuver

Lvl 4 aura of courage

Lvl 6 divine smite

Etc. ..

Without that elf heritage i will have to sacrifice 1 between aura of courage, which requires lvl 4, or divine smite, which requires lvl 6.

It is simply strong.

Also, it is the only heritage which would allow you to do something like this.

Yeahhhhh but actually no.

Basic maneuver is a level 4 feat... Made the same mistake at my group. There's no second level class feat outside of the dedication for multiclass.

My bad.

Then would be 1 extra lvl 2 class feat.

Not good as a lvl 4 though, but still a larger pool than lvl 1 feats.


K1 wrote:

@oholoko: can't you go for it by using adopted ancestry?

However I am not saying that will be always op ( you could prefer anything else ). The point is that it is unique.

You want to do that?
You have necessarily to go for that elf.

Oh no i agree with that completely it is unique, it is cool. My point is that the heritage seems OP, like really OP when you first take a look, but it's just a great heritage and not that broken. It is for cool options like a sorcerer who wants heavy armor level 1, and it is strong.

But it's not the end all be all option. Exchange the heritage for a level 2 class feat is strong but can be a silly choice compared to some heritage abilities.


oholoko wrote:
K1 wrote:

@oholoko: can't you go for it by using adopted ancestry?

However I am not saying that will be always op ( you could prefer anything else ). The point is that it is unique.

You want to do that?
You have necessarily to go for that elf.

Oh no i agree with that completely it is unique, it is cool. My point is that the heritage seems OP, like really OP when you first take a look, but it's just a great heritage and not that broken. It is for cool options like a sorcerer who wants heavy armor level 1, and it is strong.

But it's not the end all be all option. Exchange the heritage for a level 2 class feat is strong but can be a silly choice compared to some heritage abilities.

That depends the character you intend to build. More than a comparison between lvl 2 feats and top heritages, what bothers me it is that it's only for elves.

I don't know, sometimes I feel like I am the one who thinks that would be Normal for an adult character to be proficient in a secondary class, at the beginning of an adventure.

Also because he could take a dedication even after a week ( I mean that a 30y years old character could hit lvl 2 in 1 week, and take a dedication out of Nowhere. That's why I think that should not be something reserved for a specific heritage of a certain race ).

I like how the game forces you to take decisions, but sometimes things should be handled different. In my opinion.


K1 wrote:
oholoko wrote:
K1 wrote:

@oholoko: can't you go for it by using adopted ancestry?

However I am not saying that will be always op ( you could prefer anything else ). The point is that it is unique.

You want to do that?
You have necessarily to go for that elf.

Oh no i agree with that completely it is unique, it is cool. My point is that the heritage seems OP, like really OP when you first take a look, but it's just a great heritage and not that broken. It is for cool options like a sorcerer who wants heavy armor level 1, and it is strong.

But it's not the end all be all option. Exchange the heritage for a level 2 class feat is strong but can be a silly choice compared to some heritage abilities.

That depends the character you intend to build. More than a comparison between lvl 2 feats and top heritages, what bothers me it is that it's only for elves.

I don't know, sometimes I feel like I am the one who thinks that would be Normal for an adult character to be proficient in a secondary class, at the beginning of an adventure.

Also because he could take a dedication even after a week ( I mean that a 30y years old character could hit lvl 2 in 1 week, and take a dedication out of Nowhere. That's why I think that should not be something reserved for a specific heritage of a certain race ).

I like how the game forces you to take decisions, but sometimes things should be handled different. In my opinion.

I can see your point now. And well... I actually do plan to test a table with an extra feat(Not a multiclass but an non-multiclass archetype feat every other level) with multiclass still taking class feats because i feel like it won't unbalance too much also i am changing a few of the requirement to make them acessible to some classes a bit easier.

Pf2 feels a lot more forgiving with those kinds of houserules... But well the main version does throw a bone on ancients elves with this.


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Ancient Elf aside, now that we all read the multiclassing rules, OP was asking for sample builds for a Fighter/Cleric to rebuild an old school paladin.

I’m thinking using spellcasting might actually be fairly simple but not necessarily effective. Basic Fighter feat / Cleric Dedication / Basic Spellcasting would get you 2nd level spells, but Wisdom-based.
If you wished to move into Sorcerer, you’d have Charisma-based divine spells, but find yourself locked into spontaneous casting.

It’s a choice, and I’m not fully sure which you’d prefer.


Ediwir wrote:

Ancient Elf aside, now that we all read the multiclassing rules, OP was asking for sample builds for a Fighter/Cleric to rebuild an old school paladin.

I’m thinking using spellcasting might actually be fairly simple but not necessarily effective. Basic Fighter feat / Cleric Dedication / Basic Spellcasting would get you 2nd level spells, but Wisdom-based.
If you wished to move into Sorcerer, you’d have Charisma-based divine spells, but find yourself locked into spontaneous casting.

It’s a choice, and I’m not fully sure which you’d prefer.

One option is to invest into a few cleric powers instead of spells. I mean domain initiate and advanced domain give two very useful abilities.


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oholoko wrote:
Ediwir wrote:

Ancient Elf aside, now that we all read the multiclassing rules, OP was asking for sample builds for a Fighter/Cleric to rebuild an old school paladin.

I’m thinking using spellcasting might actually be fairly simple but not necessarily effective. Basic Fighter feat / Cleric Dedication / Basic Spellcasting would get you 2nd level spells, but Wisdom-based.
If you wished to move into Sorcerer, you’d have Charisma-based divine spells, but find yourself locked into spontaneous casting.

It’s a choice, and I’m not fully sure which you’d prefer.

One option is to invest into a few cleric powers instead of spells. I mean domain initiate and advanced domain give two very useful abilities.

Yeah but multiclassing advanced domain requires lv16, it’s a bit of a late bloom.

A better option to go power-based could be multiclassing Champion, getting basic Domain, Lay on Hands and Smite. However, he specified not being after Champion, so I avoided it before...


Why not go with paladin and take fighter dedication?

It is the only class with 2 attack ( attack and reaction ) per round with map 0, and from lvl 14 he will get a third one.

I know that sometimes a reaction could not occure, but mostly it will. And because of reach weapons and ranged reprisal, he will be able to cover 15 feet out of 15.

With the extra free rune, he would even be able to shift his 2h depends the situation.

A fighter dedication could give him the power attack and the charge feat.

Eventually, he could go with focus points instead of spells ( by lvl 10 he could take improved refocusing ).

Or if he decides to wait lvl 12 for blade of Justice, or he simply is ok with divine smite and more actions, he could go with a Cleric dedication.

I tend not to like spellcasting dedication too much because of the bad scaling after Basic spellcasting, but sometimes they could come in hand ( if his dm will concede him the protection spell, it would be even useful since lvl 4 ).


Ex

Human paladin

Base stats

18 str
10 dex
14 const
14 will
10 int
12 char

1st template

1 - ranged reprisal
2 - cleric dedication
3 - divine ally blade. Shifting rune. 2h weapon
4 - Basic cleric spellcasting
6 - divine smite
8 - Aura of courage
10 - radiant blade spirit
12 - expert cleric spellcasting

2nd template

1- ranged reprisal
2 - deity domain
3 - divine ally blade. Shifting rune. 2h weapon
4 - aura of courage
6 - divine smite
8 - advanced domain
10 - advanced refocusing OR radiant blade spirit
12 - blade of justice


Tahoe wrote:

I have read over the multi classing a little.

I wanted to ask a few questions.

1) Can a human multiclass at first level?

2) And does anyone have a 4th level build of a multi class character?

I am really trying to understand how many feats and of which class or ancestry work together so I don't over power or under power a character.

I am trying to make a fighter with a cleric subclass, (I know I can make a paladin but this is a recreation of an original DnD character that has been reincarnated for every RPG I have played.

Thanks in advance

Okay we will need a few more details. What is the character? What skills does he have not as in what D&D skills but what does he do, does he heals allies? Does he depends a lot on magic? His god what is it? Is he a melee combatant or an ranged one?

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