Ways to make Stealth beat alternate detection methods?


Advice


Other than Dampen Presence feat is there any way to make stealth checks against creatures with blindsight or tremorsense?


Fly beats tremorsense if you can get into the air if not in the water. I'm not sure it's official, but being incorporeal should beat sound-based blindsight (echolocation) and tremorsense.

The impenetrable veil spell and the ninja class capstone should beat everything.


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Talk with your GM is really going to be the best way.

To what end are you trying to beat special senses? Is this for exploring dungeons? Or are you trying to use stealth in combat for sneak attack?

If it's the second one, you're better off finding not stealth based methods of getting sneak attack.

If it's the first, there are options that are better than being undetected, like not being in the room (divination), or being a (regular sized) spider that doesn't arouse suspicion.


Boots of the Soft Step cost 1,000gp and block Tremorsense.

Dampen Presence blocks Blindsight and Blindsense

The rogue talent Hidden Mind grants Nondetection


Claxon wrote:

Talk with your GM is really going to be the best way.

To what end are you trying to beat special senses? Is this for exploring dungeons? Or are you trying to use stealth in combat for sneak attack?

If it's the second one, you're better off finding not stealth based methods of getting sneak attack.

If it's the first, there are options that are better than being undetected, like not being in the room (divination), or being a (regular sized) spider that doesn't arouse suspicion.

Special senses will often pick up magic and magical sensory spells, or block divination from working.

A rogue, not relying on magic, can bypass just about everything. He can do so all day long, and it does not require any consumable resources.


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This is one of the issues I have with high-level play. So many of the beasties you're supposedly ready to encounter just completely negate one of the iconic class's most iconic abilities.
I'm all for throwing scent and echo-location into the mix to keep players on their toes, but a large number of powerful foes with constant True Seeing and blindsight makes for dull encounters. Hindering player ability is fine; do it all day, every day. But utterly negating it is less dynamic and a more more frustrating.

I've played around a lot with skill checks and absurd DC's, to help the more mundane classes get a boost up into the realm of legend on their own. I mean, if you have camouflage, hide in plain sight and can always take 10 on Stealth checks for a constant, effortless result of 50+...what does that look like, exactly? Why can't that mean you somehow hide your scent, your breath, your life force, maybe even your thoughts? Pick up that shadow like a rug and hide under it. Sure. Why not? As far as I'm concerned, you've earned it.


Volkard Abendroth wrote:
Claxon wrote:

Talk with your GM is really going to be the best way.

To what end are you trying to beat special senses? Is this for exploring dungeons? Or are you trying to use stealth in combat for sneak attack?

If it's the second one, you're better off finding not stealth based methods of getting sneak attack.

If it's the first, there are options that are better than being undetected, like not being in the room (divination), or being a (regular sized) spider that doesn't arouse suspicion.

Special senses will often pick up magic and magical sensory spells, or block divination from working.

A rogue, not relying on magic, can bypass just about everything. He can do so all day long, and it does not require any consumable resources.

True, but a GM intent on being able to detect the rogue isn't going to let things like Dampen Presence be used or will come up with other abilities that aren't as easily countered. Like Life Sense.

So there is a give and take, that will depend on the GM's style.

The Exchange

I had a player with one of these "unseen" PCs who was just so excited over the chance of "Scouting well ahead of the party..." and talked the rest of the team into waiting a mile or two outside of the town ruins and let his PC scout ahead to see what might be there. "Be back in a few minutes...". Just inside, he missed a Perception check and triggered a trap... and a building fell on him. Missed the Reflex save and ... From the ridge above the ruins, the party heard (and saw) the building collapse, so after a couple hours the party Barbarian was able to follow Mr. Unseen Scouts trail to a (fresh) pile of rubble, and dig him out. The player pointed out he had a "Bottle of Air", so heck, I wasn't going to be a Richard and ask him if he could pull it out and activate it while buried under stone rubble, so... Sure! Two hours under a pile of stone rubble, and another hour for the party to dig him out... After all, he survived the 10d6 damage for the building falling in on him.

Later, in the main fight, the party wizard had to keep asking where the Unseen Scout was (via an active Message spell) before dropping AOE on the enemy... Next game I think I'll just insert a number grid and have the Unseen Scout note where only he and I can see the location where his PC is hiding... that way when an AOE knocks him unconscious, the party will have to track him down via the smell of burnt meat/hair. LOL!


Path of War has the Lurker in the Darkness feat, which requires opponents to still make the Perception check against your Stealth check, even if they are using unusual forms of sensory perception such as blindsight, greensight, or tremorsense cannot automatically foil your use of Stealth; such creatures must make a Perception check as normal to detect you when you make use of the Stealth skill. This feat foils indirect detection (such as a creature using detect magic to search for your magical items while you are using Stealth) in the manner described above, but has no effect on psi-like abilities, powers, spells, spell-like abilities, and/or supernatural abilities specifically used to uncover information about you rather than enhancing the user’s perception, such as the augury spell.


Vigilante has a pretty nice talent, which a rogue can pick up with stalker talent, if I recall correctly.

Blind Spot (Ex) (Ultimate Intrigue pg. 13): The vigilante is so skilled at stealth, he can use the Stealth skill to hide from creatures with unusual senses that normally automatically detect creatures. This includes senses such as blindsense, blindsight, lifesense, scent, or tremorsense. For each such ability that the creature possesses, if the vigilante is not bypassing the sense in another way—such as the negate aromaAPG spell for scent or flying for tremorsense—the creature gains a stacking +20 circumstance bonus on all Perception checks to notice the vigilante, rather than automatically noticing the vigilante. Only a stalker vigilante of at least 6th level can select this talent.


Get UMD pumped up so that you can reliably hit a 20 DC, then get a Wand of each: Greater Invisibility, Negate Aroma, Fly, Reduce Person. Max your Stealth and get Dampen Presence. Ring of Chameleon Power gives +10 Competence to Stealth and Child of the Moon Trait gives +1, +2, or +4 Stealth depending on the Moon Cycle. Go True Neutral so you can avoid Aura Sight and Alignment detecting spells.

Is there any other way to beat Lifesense besides being Vigilante?


Ryze Kuja wrote:
Is there any other way to beat Lifesense besides being Vigilante?

Being undead


Dirty Tricks can Deafen your opponents. If you are Invisible and your opponent is Deafened, usually Blindsight can be undone.

Quixote wrote:
powerful foes with constant True Seeing

True Seeing won't allow you to see through an Eversmoking Bottle.

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