Naked NPCs everywhere!


Rules Discussion


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Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

The rules don't seem to make any exceptions whatsoever for basic clothing as was done in First Edition; that is, unless you want to run around naked, you still need to buy a set of clothes and apply its bulk against your encumbrance.

However, nearly all of the official NPC stat blocks make no mention of clothes. Does that mean that we have naked NPCs running around everywhere? Or might it mean that PCs aren't supposed to worry so much about buying a set of clothes and applying the weight (at least for the first set)?

Also, all of the clothes in the Equipment chapter use the plural term "clothes." Does that mean that I only need to buy one "unit" of a given style of clothing (common, explorerer's, fine fashion, etc.) to assume that I have as many of that kind of outfit as needed to adventure? Or is it just a single set of that kind of outfit?


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NPC stat blocks don't mention clothes because that's a waste of word count to do.

No logical reason to try and read anything else into it.

As for clothes being plural... it's also singular. If you are wearing a shirt, some pants, socks, shoes, and a nice sweater vest, you are wearing clothes - not cloth or clothe or some other non-existent singular term that isn't clothes.

Whether that means you need more than one set of each sort of outfit, however, comes down to table variance - there aren't any rules penalizing the wearing of a set of clothes for more than X number of days, or what happens if your clothes go without washing or any of that sort of stuff.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Ordinary clothing has a Bulk of "-", which does make it basically weightless. Even the bulkiest clothing has a Bulk of "L".

So carrying a change of clothing around shouldn't be a problem unless you apply to clothing the same Bulk penalty that is applied to carrying armor (see page 274).


NPCs follow a different set of rules to PCs. That NPC statblocks don't include clothes has no bearing on whether players should have to spend on clothes.

NPC statblocks generally don't have rations, bedrolls, mess kits, torches, waterskins, etc either, but they probably have those things if they are travelling. It just isn't important to write that stuff down or use up page space on it.


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Ravingdork wrote:
However, nearly all of the official NPC stat blocks make no mention of clothes. Does that mean that we have naked NPCs running around everywhere?

Yes, that's the only possible explanation /s

Sovereign Court

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Ravingdork wrote:
However, nearly all of the official NPC stat blocks make no mention of clothes.

How do you cope with NPCs whose clothes are described in boxtext but not in their statblock? How do you cope!?

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

What happens when the NPC artwork has them clothed, but the statblock is silent on the matter? The universe folds upon itself?


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NPC stands for Not Provided Clothing.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Nevertheless it seems odd to me that a backpack, when worn properly, is weightless, but the same is not true of most clothes.

It's mostly a concern to me, because I'm trying to reconcile my PC character sheets with the officially published NPC stat blocks (the former are made to look like the latter, so disconnects like these mean I have design decisions to make).


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook Subscriber

I suspect that most NPC statblocks don't concern themselves with such minutiae as clothing or even total bulk carried. Such abstractions are important to limit the cognitive load on DMs. It can be assumed that most NPCs have a variety of minor gear that doesn't actually appear on their stat block but which it would be logical for them to possess.

For example, when PCs are looting corpses after a battle, I roll a few d6s for random copper and silver pieces, depending on how affluent the orcs/bandits/pirates or whatever are likely to be. And seeding a few minor items like rope, grappling hooks, arrows, water flasks or rations can be a boon for PCs who are less than fully equipped.


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Ravingdork wrote:

Nevertheless it seems odd to me that a backpack, when worn properly, is weightless, but the same is not true of most clothes.

It's mostly a concern to me, because I'm trying to reconcile my PC character sheets with the officially published NPC stat blocks (the former are made to look like the latter, so disconnects like these mean I have design decisions to make).

most clothes ARE weightless though.

it's only when you start adding bells and whistles, puches and heavy accssories, bulkier stiff "noble" clothing, furs and etc that they become L

ALL "ordinary" apparel is "-"


Tender Tendrils wrote:

NPCs follow a different set of rules to PCs. That NPC statblocks don't include clothes has no bearing on whether players should have to spend on clothes.

NPC statblocks generally don't have rations, bedrolls, mess kits, torches, waterskins, etc either, but they probably have those things if they are travelling. It just isn't important to write that stuff down or use up page space on it.

Don't they each have an Adventurer's Pack with that stuff? I thought that was the point of it existing.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

So anytime someone spends their starting funds on ordinary clothing, they should just list nothing on their character sheet to show for it?

I just wish the rules said something like "your first set of ordinary clothes are free" or something like that. Then I could just ignore it and not put anything on the character sheets (the default assumption of course being that people generally aren't naked) right up until the character buys specialty clothing.


Ravingdork wrote:
Does that mean that we have naked NPCs running around everywhere?

Yes.

*shifty eyes*


Put whatever regular clothing your heart desires on your character sheet. It just doesn't have any mechanical impact on the game.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Good point. PF1 mentions a free outfit worth 10 GP or less. Ordinary clothes in PF2 are 1 SP, which is 1/150th of your starting money.

How close have people been cutting it on their initial funds?

Liberty's Edge

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This is a silly thread. Of course, the NPCs are all naked, why else would they pay adventurers to go on fetch quests and try to negotiate on their behalf all the time, they're too embarassed.

/s


Ravingdork wrote:

So anytime someone spends their starting funds on ordinary clothing, they should just list nothing on their character sheet to show for it?

I just wish the rules said something like "your first set of ordinary clothes are free" or something like that. Then I could just ignore it and not put anything on the character sheets (the default assumption of course being that people generally aren't naked) right up until the character buys specialty clothing.

Nope, the default assumption is that npcs aren't naked. PCs follow a different set of rules as they take a more central role to the story and it is actually worth paying attention to such minutia for them. The only things that need to be recorded or simulated with npcs are things that affect how PCs interact with them.

Never assume that things that apply to npcs apply the same way to pcs, or vice versa.

Liberty's Edge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Pawns, Rulebook Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Things I worry about: climate change, the integrity of democracy in the modern era, the rise of fascism around the globe, structural mechanisms of sexism and racism, worldwide backsliding on the concept of human rights.

Things I do not worry about: are my NPCs naked?


Ravingdork wrote:
So anytime someone spends their starting funds on ordinary clothing, they should just list nothing on their character sheet to show for it?

Why would they not write down their clothing?

That seems like a way for them to forget what they bought, possibly think they didn't buy anything at all, and then spend even more money on clothes - which hopefully they write down so that doesn't keep being a thing every few months of game-play as they realize "hey, I don't have any clothes written down!"


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thenobledrake wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
So anytime someone spends their starting funds on ordinary clothing, they should just list nothing on their character sheet to show for it?

Why would they not write down their clothing?

That seems like a way for them to forget what they bought, possibly think they didn't buy anything at all, and then spend even more money on clothes - which hopefully they write down so that doesn't keep being a thing every few months of game-play as they realize "hey, I don't have any clothes written down!"

Apparently none of the other characters do it.


Ravingdork wrote:
Does that mean that we have naked NPCs running around everywhere?

Wait, do you not run your campaigns in nudist colonies?


There's just something irresistible about the feel of one's armor directly against bare skin, all over one's body... mmm.


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Since I'm naked when I'm GMing, it's only fair all the NPCs are naked too.


Ascalaphus wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
However, nearly all of the official NPC stat blocks make no mention of clothes.
How do you cope with NPCs whose clothes are described in boxtext but not in their statblock? How do you cope!?

Simple.

Body paint.

NPCs buy gallons, and gallons of body paint.


Ravingdork wrote:
Apparently none of the other characters do it.

None of what other characters? Are you talking about NPCs? They didn't fill out their own character sheets... and in fact are presented as generic entities, or at least as generic as possible, so that minor fiddling and alterations on the part of any given GM doesn't immediately contradict the published information.


Ravingdork wrote:
thenobledrake wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
So anytime someone spends their starting funds on ordinary clothing, they should just list nothing on their character sheet to show for it?

Why would they not write down their clothing?

That seems like a way for them to forget what they bought, possibly think they didn't buy anything at all, and then spend even more money on clothes - which hopefully they write down so that doesn't keep being a thing every few months of game-play as they realize "hey, I don't have any clothes written down!"

Apparently none of the other characters do it.

Again, this is because they are npcs, and it would be a waste of time to track that stuff for them. PCs follow a different set of rules where there is a lot more attention to those details because they are the player characters.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Man I can never tell if ravingdork is joking or not. This is such a bizarre thing to have a problem with, especially when juxtaposed against things like it being easier to get stuff out of a sheath than a backpack being too fiddly for you to deal with.

Is it just extreme pedantry for fun in your spare time, that isn't actually worth considering when it comes to table time?


Ravingdork wrote:

The rules don't seem to make any exceptions whatsoever for basic clothing as was done in First Edition; that is, unless you want to run around naked, you still need to buy a set of clothes and apply its bulk against your encumbrance.

However, nearly all of the official NPC stat blocks make no mention of clothes. Does that mean that we have naked NPCs running around everywhere? Or might it mean that PCs aren't supposed to worry so much about buying a set of clothes and applying the weight (at least for the first set)?

Also, all of the clothes in the Equipment chapter use the plural term "clothes." Does that mean that I only need to buy one "unit" of a given style of clothing (common, explorerer's, fine fashion, etc.) to assume that I have as many of that kind of outfit as needed to adventure? Or is it just a single set of that kind of outfit?

It's because NPC inventory only lists the loot and not their equipment. Of course, NPCs have clothes, but would your PCs wear someone else's underwear? Especially after having been scared so much by meeting Pharasma?


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Think about it: anime characters, superheroes... how often do you see them changing clothes?
So, it's pointless to write down clothes, because no PC or NPC will ever change their own. We are just lucky that comics, movies and TTRPG don't convey smells.

Liberty's Edge

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Megistone wrote:

Think about it: anime characters, superheroes... how often do you see them changing clothes?

So, it's pointless to write down clothes, because no PC or NPC will ever change their own. We are just lucky that comics, movies and TTRPG don't convey smells.

Now you have me thinking about special printing techniques whereby they add scratch-and-sniff sections to the upcoming books for each new Ancestry, Heritage, and creature in the Bestiary line.


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Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Malk_Content wrote:

Man I can never tell if ravingdork is joking or not. This is such a bizarre thing to have a problem with, especially when juxtaposed against things like it being easier to get stuff out of a sheath than a backpack being too fiddly for you to deal with.

Is it just extreme pedantry for fun in your spare time, that isn't actually worth considering when it comes to table time?

*Jokingly puts on his serious hat*

I often can't tell myself. In this case, the thread title was meant to be a funny joke, but I guess I was hoping for serious answers.

I suspect it has more to do with my perfectionist tendencies and low-key obsessive compulsive disorder.

If something doesn't look or feel right to me, and I happen to have nothing better to do, I can spend inordinate amounts of time obsessing over the minutiae. (Though thankfully this doesn't often happen at the table, since there's plenty of adventure to distract me).

One of my personal goals is to make my character sheets look as much like the official stat blocks as possible, while also remaining functionally useful for player use. However, since the official stat blocks are only ever for NPCs and monsters, there are frequent conflicts/disconnects (which I admit are often of my own devising) that need to (in my mind anyways) be worked out somehow. It's even worse for me when I find inconsistencies in the official stat blocks. Ugh! Which way do I go!?

So when I see that NPCs don't list clothes, but the rules are clear that I can't ignore them, that creates a cognitive disconnect. On a logical level, I understand perfectly ell what's going on, and am aware of numerous solutions that would easily resolve the matter for others, but until I find a solution that works for me, it just feels wrong. One of the ways I cope, is to solicit others for how they handle it, in the hope that ones person's solution might work for me, or otherwise help me to find my own solution. Call it a communal brainstorm of sorts.

I know that my character sheets will never be 100% identical to the official stat blocks since I don't have access to Paizo's working files (and they do a good job of securing their PDFs even from experienced graphic designers like myself) and because of my desire to make them "PC compatible" but I do find that discovering a worthwhile compromise and that (endless?) quest towards my ideal perfection to be part of the fun.


Themetricsystem wrote:
Megistone wrote:

Think about it: anime characters, superheroes... how often do you see them changing clothes?

So, it's pointless to write down clothes, because no PC or NPC will ever change their own. We are just lucky that comics, movies and TTRPG don't convey smells.
Now you have me thinking about special printing techniques whereby they add scratch-and-sniff sections to the upcoming books for each new Ancestry, Heritage, and creature in the Bestiary line.

You must be related to the guy who actually convinced a candy company to make earwax flavored jelly beans and sell them to Harry Potter fans.


BellyBeard wrote:
Themetricsystem wrote:
Megistone wrote:

Think about it: anime characters, superheroes... how often do you see them changing clothes?

So, it's pointless to write down clothes, because no PC or NPC will ever change their own. We are just lucky that comics, movies and TTRPG don't convey smells.
Now you have me thinking about special printing techniques whereby they add scratch-and-sniff sections to the upcoming books for each new Ancestry, Heritage, and creature in the Bestiary line.
You must be related to the guy who actually convinced a candy company to make earwax flavored jelly beans and sell them to Harry Potter fans.

Did they sell well?

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