Sorceror Blood Magic - Targets and Range Question


Rules Discussion

Horizon Hunters

The entry for the Sorceror's Bloodlines where it teaches you how to read a Bloodline entry the player guide it states for the bottom Blood Magic portion:

"Whenever you cast a bloodline spell using Focus Points or a granted spell from your bloodline using a spell slot, you gain a blood magic effect. If the blood magic offers a choice, make it before resolving the spell. The blood magic effect occurs after resolving any checks for the spell’s initial effects and, against a foe, applies only if the spell is a successful attack or the foe fails its saving throw. If the spell has an area, you must designate yourself or one target in the area when you cast the spell to be the target of the blood magic effect. All references to spell level refer to the level of the spell you cast."

Several bloodlines grant beneficial effects to "yourself or a target" however these bloodlines sometimes may grant a purely offensive spell. For instance Imperial Bloodline grants Magic Missile and has the benefit of: "Blood Magic A surge of ancestral memories grants you or one target a +1 status bonus to skill checks for 1 round."

My question is severalfold:

1.) Nowhere does it say the target of the spell has to be the target of the Blood Magic benefit (except in the case of AOE which they explicitly specify). Is it correct to assume I can attack an enemy and then buff an ally using this benefit?

2.) Is their any type of range restriction to this or is it up to the DM discretion? Or perhaps the range of the triggering spell?

3.) If in fact you cannot use this benefit to help allies without first attacking them is their a balance reason for designing the class this way.

I'd love to get some clarity on this for peace of mind while designing my character.


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When it says "you or one target" it means a target of the spell. You can't magic missile an enemy and give a boost to an ally.

Range is limited by the spell in question.

It's not a balance issue because you can always choose you, and because not every spell that will trigger blood magic effects is offensive in nature.

Horizon Hunters

Some lists like that granted by the Fey bloodline would require you to do some weird things to trigger like trying to charm allies.

It makes it really seem as if that's not the intention.


No "weird things" at all, because YOU are always an option no matter whether your spell targets friends or foes.

Charm an enemy, give yourself a small benefit at the same time.

The feature isn't intended to always be able to affect an ally, or it would say words like "ally" in how to determine who gets the benefit instead of saying "you or one target"


Talking about bloodlines, I can't find any progression with the sorcerer dedication.

Am I missing something?

Trying to make some builds but I am still stuck at Basic bloodline spell ( lvl 4 feat ).

It seems strange that there is no upgrade from lvl 4 to lvl 20.

Also I can't find a way to enable blood magic with a dedication.


K1 wrote:

Talking about bloodlines, I can't find any progression with the sorcerer dedication.

Am I missing something?

Trying to make some builds but I am still stuck at Basic bloodline spell ( lvl 4 feat ).

It seems strange that there is no upgrade from lvl 4 to lvl 20.

Also I can't find a way to enable blood magic with a dedication.

The other Focus spells are behind the Sorcerers feats, so you need Advanced Blood Potency feats for the other ones.

You can't enable Blood Magic with dedication, just like you can't get Arcane Thesis of the Wizard or Hunters Edge of the Ranger.


Oh god this sucks.

Bloodline first as non basic/advanced feat related then advanced under advanced.

So you will need

Basic dedication
Basic bloodline spell
Basic feat ( useless. There is nothing useful unless you are a spellcaster ).
Advanced feat.

Basic bloodline spell needs to be under Basic feats to let this work.


Cantrip expansion seems fine


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it would really be nice if a dev weighed in. theres a whole reddit thread with people insisting that you can choose targets other than spell target or self. This really one of those situations where vague wording should have been avoided. how hard would it have been to write "target of triggering spell" or list as any target with a range. sure we can kind of piece together that it should be based on spell target, but then I just seems they didn't proof read the bloodlines to makes sure they can actually be used as written. If Fey was meant to be used on allies, they left the pc no way to do, therefore it should be written to only use on self.

Horizon Hunters

If it is truly meant you have to attack or charm allies to get the benefit as some bloodlines I may homebrew a rule at my table. It seems anti-fun to be restrictive when we are assuming something never stated clearly in the rules. I may change my mind if it winds up broken but from what I can tell Sorceror is not really that strong of a class without the versatility that the blood magic seems to allow.


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I would definitly read it as "target of the triggering spell".

Because the designation "target" by itself isn't used in other places. The target is always defined more: The basic action "Strike" says you target a creature; spells specify what specifications their target has to meet ("one living creature", "one willing creature") and so on.

So "you or a target" means a target of something - in this case the triggering spell. If it was meant to be chosen freely, they would have written "you or another creature". It could have been written more clearly, though.

And if Fey bloodline doesn't have many opportunities to make allies concealed, that's life. So only you always spout butterflies when casting, sounds fitting.

Horizon Hunters

The issue with that interpretation is that "you or a target" wording isn't universal. It varies bloodline by bloodline. Some specify the beneficial effect only on yourself. So the inclusion of it for specific bloodlines means they are either causing needless confusion or encouraging friendly fire.


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Quote:
Blood Magic Whenever you cast a bloodline spell using Focus Points or a granted spell from your bloodline using a spell slot, you gain a blood magic effect. If the blood magic offers a choice, make it before resolving the spell. The blood magic effect occurs after resolving any checks for the spell’s initial effects and, against a foe, applies only if the spell is a successful attack or the foe fails its saving throw.If the spell has an area, you must designate yourself or one target in the area when you cast the spell to be the target of the blood magic effect. All references to spell level refer to the level of the spell you cast.

Emphasis mine.

It's true it doesn't specify that the target of blood magic must be someone affected by the spell. But I think the bolded bit definitely suggests that for an AoE (it's specifically saying only one target in the Aoe benefits) and it can be extrapolated from there that a single target spell will allow blood magic only in the target of the spell.

I think conceptually blood magic is a bonus rider on a spell, not an effect separate from the spell, which makes sense with those targeting restrictions.

For fey specifically, you will be the only one benefiting the vast majority of the time because only has a few spells (fey glamor and cloak of colors) which are not offensive or self targeting magic. That does not encourage friendly fire.


Goldryno wrote:
If it is truly meant you have to attack or charm allies to get the benefit as some bloodlines I may homebrew a rule at my table. It seems anti-fun to be restrictive when we are assuming something never stated clearly in the rules. I may change my mind if it winds up broken but from what I can tell Sorceror is not really that strong of a class without the versatility that the blood magic seems to allow.

It is not stated clearly, but I believe the intention behind it is quite clear once you look at the different parts and think about what it is designed to do. You are free to houserule, but I don't think the unclear wording should be used as the justification. Instead you should just say "I think you should always benefit from the blood magic riders, even if the spell's targets would normally limit its usefulness." That's a fine position to have.

(My point is, once you start declaring other people in thread are effectively playing wrong and being anti-fun, even indirectly, things can get out of hand fast. Happens a lot on these boards.)

Horizon Hunters

I can agree with that. New to these boards so learning the etiquette! Sorry if I came across a bit too negative.

Maybe a better way to say it is a scenario where a fey sorceror is casting his charm on his own team to grant concealment bonuses does not seem intended but is the most likely outcome and legal with this interpretation of the rules. Same with the imperial bloodline and tapping an ally with one magic missile during early levels to help them with a skill check.

If that's is how it is meant to be though I accept that but think many tables would have a bit more fun with a homebrew rule to supplement or adjust this.

Horizon Hunters

For anyone reviewing this interaction on their own the Aberrant bloodline is probably the weirdest example of this. The least harmful thing he could do to supply his ally with a benefit is a spider sting spell and hope that they make the save.

This could be an intended trade off though. Sacrificing potential physical ability (enfeebled) for mental defense (bonus to will saving throws)?


Welcome to the boards!

I think for those bloodlines with few to no spells targeting allies, the "or a target" bit is probably future proofing for if they introduce ways to get other spells on those lists. They are more selfish bloodlines. That's just a guess though. Would be nice to hear some perspective on them.

Horizon Hunters

I agree with some perspective being ideal. Because the future proofing line of thinking makes less sense when you consider how narrow the conditions already are to trigger blood magic with this interpretation.

For it to be future proofing they would have to have plans in the works to overhaul/expand the spell list that the bloodline granted in the first place (not additions to the spell list of the magic tradition, but specifically to bloodline granted spells). That level of planned class rework seems unlikely with the game being so new.

It would be interesting if this was a case of future proofing that motivated some strange character interactions in the present.

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