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In looking at suggested builds for a Cleric Warpriest or martial multiclassing with Cleric, many of the forum suggestions include taking the feat Emblazon Armament. If I'm reading it right it adds 1 point of damage to your attack. Am I reading it right? Isn't that a big investment for 1 point of damage. Maybe I'm confused in the feat or the game mechanics for thinking that 1 point isn't much. Please help me understand why this is a good use of a class feat. Thank you in advance.
Ya I'm with the OP here but I've heard the debate for the other side. Apparently damage boosts are kind of hard to come by so even 1pt is suppose to be decent. The main draw like Noble said it counts as a religous symbol so you could use a 3action Heal or Harm or whatever even with your weapon and shield in hand. The other big benefit is for Emblazoned Energy which doesn't actually add to your +1 status bonus to damage it INSTEAD replaces it with 1D4, or 1D6 if your really lucky. So your spending 2 feats to get 1D4 damage boost or maybe 1D6 and be able to cast Material component spells while your hands are occupied. I agree it isn't great but compared to his other choices its one of the better choices he's got at the level unfortunately.
Small bonuses are a much bigger deal in PF2,as they are doled out pretty sparingly compared to pf1.
But that effect is just a minor bonus effect on top of the much more important effect of being able to use your weapon or shield as a divine focus - any spell that normally has a material component requires a free hand, or a hand holding an arcane focus, so a sword & board cleric actually really benefits from this feat a lot more than you might imagine.
Compare these two;
Without emblazon armament;
Turn 1: The cleric was fighting in melee with her mace & shield last turn, but wants to cast a full action aoe heal. Her hands are occupied, so she has to spend a release free action to drop her mace, and an interact action to draw her holy symbol, then does not have enough actions left to cast the aoe heal, so either has to settle for a single action heal or wait a turn.
Turn 2: The cleric casts aoe heal.
With Emblazon armament:
Turn 1: The clerics mace IS her holy symbol, so she can cast her full action heal right now without having to wait a turn.
It actually makes a significant difference to the action economy when casting spells with material components - a normal cleric can get away without it, but a warpriest who is on the frontlines with a sword & board is going to have to choose between taking the feat or sacrificing action economy.
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The main benefint is making the weapon count as Divine Focus.
However, the +1 daamge is much more significant than it looks. At level 1 with a d8 weapon and 16 strength, it's roughly a 12% damage increase. It brings the Warpriest's damage bonus up to +4, which martial classes already get from their strength alone (not even counting Rage etc.). It basically helps the Warpriest to not be behind on attack AND damage.
It does start to fall behind when the first Striking runes become available but that's not too long before you can upgrade it to Emblazon Energy. Martial character will still keep ahead in damage since they get better proficiency and greater weapon specialization on top of their class specific damage boosts. But without Emblazon Armament/Energy, the warpriest wouldn't deal any more damage than a Wizard.
It's not super effective, but a necessary damage boost to make the Cleric slightly better at fighting than your average caster.
Seems the main benefit of Emblazon Armament is the weapon/shield counting as a religious symbol. The damage/hardness boost is minor but free in-combat-action-wise.
The main benefit of Emblazon Energy is that you can choose the energy type freely. The actual bonus doesn't matter much - if you're going to fight the big red dragon, you emblazon with cold to exploit the weakness or protect against the breath.
Small bonuses are a much bigger deal in PF2,as they are doled out pretty sparingly compared to pf1.
But that effect is just a minor bonus effect on top of the much more important effect of being able to use your weapon or shield as a divine focus - any spell that normally has a material component requires a free hand, or a hand holding an arcane focus, so a sword & board cleric actually really benefits from this feat a lot more than you might imagine.
Compare these two;
Without emblazon armament;
Turn 1: The cleric was fighting in melee with her mace & shield last turn, but wants to cast a full action aoe heal. Her hands are occupied, so she has to spend a release free action to drop her mace, and an interact action to draw her holy symbol, then does not have enough actions left to cast the aoe heal, so either has to settle for a single action heal or wait a turn.
Turn 2: The cleric casts aoe heal.With Emblazon armament:
Turn 1: The clerics mace IS her holy symbol, so she can cast her full action heal right now without having to wait a turn.It actually makes a significant difference to the action economy when casting spells with material components - a normal cleric can get away without it, but a warpriest who is on the frontlines with a sword & board is going to have to choose between taking the feat or sacrificing action economy.
Turn one is a bit off, as the cleri. Can drop the mace freely but doesnt need to draw the holy symbol, they can just cast the spell using material components. But then they would have no weapon at the start of turn 2 and it has the biggest impact there.
Individual sources of damage don’t need to scale to be good in this game. Monster hp scales linearly, so boosts to damage don’t become irrelevant ever.
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You can build your character however you want. Me, I'll never say no to extra damage.
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Individual sources of damage don’t need to scale to be good in this game. Monster hp scales linearly, so boosts to damage don’t become irrelevant ever.You've actually provided the evidence that invalidates your claim :-P. Monster HP scales linearly, so unless you have a bonus that scales as well (such as with weapon damage dice), it's going to become significantly worse over time.
Damage scaling per level is also more or less linear, so this argument doesn't really make sense.
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Damage scaling per level is also more or less linear, so this argument doesn't really make sense.Individual sources of damage don’t need to scale to be good in this game. Monster hp scales linearly, so boosts to damage don’t become irrelevant ever.You've actually provided the evidence that invalidates your claim :-P. Monster HP scales linearly, so unless you have a bonus that scales as well (such as with weapon damage dice), it's going to become significantly worse over time.
I think the point was that the bonus damage from Emblazon Armament doesn't scale at all, it's a static +1. Since monster HP (and PC damage output) goes up with level, that +1 becomes a smaller and smaller portion of your total damage as you level up.
The main benefit of Emblazon Armament is the ability to cast divine spells with a Focus component while also wielding a shield or two-handed weapon, without spending actions to re-grip.
The bonus damage/hardness is great at low levels, but its relative importance fades over time-- whereas saving on action economy is valuable no matter what your level.
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Definitely the saving action economy thing is huge.
I also think it's important to recognize that almost nothing in PF2e scales without further investment. Emblazon Energy is the "scaling" of Emblazon Armament. And Emblazon Energy is awesome - 1d4 damage might not sound like much, but 1d4+10 extra damage against that white dragon because you are pinging weakness is fantastic.
Plus, it only takes 10 minutes to switch to a different element any time you want, so as long as you have some idea what you are going to be up against you can almost always be hitting weaknesses.
That all said, I will definitely agree that the action economy bonus is the number one reason to take Emblazon Armaments. If you are a free-hander (or even a two-hander, since that still lets you cast without dropping your weapon) it's likely to not be as appealing as if you are doing sword-and-board or two-weapon.
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Definitely the saving action economy thing is huge.
I also think it's important to recognize that almost nothing in PF2e scales without further investment. Emblazon Energy is the "scaling" of Emblazon Armament. And Emblazon Energy is awesome - 1d4 damage might not sound like much, but 1d4+10 extra damage against that white dragon because you are pinging weakness is fantastic.
Plus, it only takes 10 minutes to switch to a different element any time you want, so as long as you have some idea what you are going to be up against you can almost always be hitting weaknesses.
That all said, I will definitely agree that the action economy bonus is the number one reason to take Emblazon Armaments. If you are a free-hander (or even a two-hander, since that still lets you cast without dropping your weapon) it's likely to not be as appealing as if you are doing sword-and-board or two-weapon.
Thanks for pointing out that (IMHO silly) rule, I just added a change to my house rules. They now say that a target with a weakness amount listed can suffer up to the listed Weakness in bonus damage, but the bonus cannot exceed the original damage done. So if the target has Weakness 10 to fire and suffers 2 fire damage, he takes only +2 more for a total of 4. If he suffered 12 fire damage, he's suffer +10 more (his max weakness) for 22 total. The idea of a candle flame being able to kill a white dragon seems silly to me.
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That all said, I will definitely agree that the action economy bonus is the number one reason to take Emblazon Armaments. If you are a free-hander (or even a two-hander, since that still lets you cast without dropping your weapon) it's likely to not be as appealing as if you are doing sword-and-board or two-weapon.
I might be misunderstanding your power, but I think it implies something that's not quite true.
All weapons/shields let you cast without dropping your weapon as long as the spell has only Verbal and Somatic components. It's only material components that require you to have a hand free (or holding a Divine Focus). You might not need to drop a two-handed weapon, but you still need to release it with one hand before you can cast a material component spell. And since gripping the weapon with two hands again is an action, there's really not that much difference to dropping a one-handed weapon and spending an action to pick it up after the cast.
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Thanks for pointing out that (IMHO silly) rule, I just added a change to my house rules. They now say that a target with a weakness amount listed can suffer up to the listed Weakness in bonus damage, but the bonus cannot exceed the original damage done. So if the target has Weakness 10 to fire and suffers 2 fire damage, he takes only +2 more for a total of 4. If he suffered 12 fire damage, he's suffer +10 more (his max weakness) for 22 total. The idea of a candle flame being able to kill a white dragon seems silly to me.Definitely the saving action economy thing is huge.
I also think it's important to recognize that almost nothing in PF2e scales without further investment. Emblazon Energy is the "scaling" of Emblazon Armament. And Emblazon Energy is awesome - 1d4 damage might not sound like much, but 1d4+10 extra damage against that white dragon because you are pinging weakness is fantastic.
Plus, it only takes 10 minutes to switch to a different element any time you want, so as long as you have some idea what you are going to be up against you can almost always be hitting weaknesses.
That all said, I will definitely agree that the action economy bonus is the number one reason to take Emblazon Armaments. If you are a free-hander (or even a two-hander, since that still lets you cast without dropping your weapon) it's likely to not be as appealing as if you are doing sword-and-board or two-weapon.
This is a design choice that has been linked to other pieces of the game: the splash damage of bombs, for example, becomes nearly useless if you limit its capability to exploit weaknesses. Or that champion feat, Aura of Faith: adding 1 good damage by level 12 isn't much, nor it is doubling it on fiends and such.
So, that kind of stuff is going to be broken by your houserule unless you review that too.|
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This is a design choice that has been linked to other pieces of the game: the splash damage of bombs, for example, becomes nearly useless if you limit its capability to exploit weaknesses. Or that champion feat, Aura of Faith: adding 1 good damage by level 12 isn't much, nor it is doubling it on fiends and such.
So, that kind of stuff is going to be broken by your houserule unless you review that too.
Thank you for pointing those out. If you know of any more, please let me know.
For the Aura of Faith, in addition to the +1 Good damage, it now also adds the Good trait to the rest of the damage as well. And Alchemical Bomb's splash damage is now equal to the main target's damage. That makes it all the more important for the Bomber Alchemist to eliminate the splash damage if his allies are adjacent to the target.
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So now you get the problem that your aura of good prevents you from dealing damage to all non evil entities at all
This is a design choice that has been linked to other pieces of the game: the splash damage of bombs, for example, becomes nearly useless if you limit its capability to exploit weaknesses. Or that champion feat, Aura of Faith: adding 1 good damage by level 12 isn't much, nor it is doubling it on fiends and such.
So, that kind of stuff is going to be broken by your houserule unless you review that too.Thank you for pointing those out. If you know of any more, please let me know.
For the Aura of Faith, in addition to the +1 Good damage, it now also adds the Good trait to the rest of the damage as well. And Alchemical Bomb's splash damage is now equal to the main target's damage. That makes it all the more important for the Bomber Alchemist to eliminate the splash damage if his allies are adjacent to the target.
And your bombs just became absurdly powerful. Splash damage is dealt to the main target as well, and to everyone on a failed attack roll. Also, how does that interact with the feats that increase splash damage?
You've also nerfed Emblazon Energy, a whole host of Champion abilities, and more. And artificially dialed up the durability of many enemies past the monster creation guidelines. Consider a party with flaming runes against that white dragon. The monster's math dictates it has more hit points with the assumption that hits will often proc that 10 extra damage. But a 1d6 flaming rune weapon can't actually hit 10 damage beyond lucky crits, and will often only inflict 1 or 2 damage.
Also, who is this change actually for? Have one of your players dealt 1d4 slashing to a zombie and then been bummed out that they dealt an extra damage to it?
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So now you get the problem that your aura of good prevents you from dealing damage to all non evil entities at all
This is a design choice that has been linked to other pieces of the game: the splash damage of bombs, for example, becomes nearly useless if you limit its capability to exploit weaknesses. Or that champion feat, Aura of Faith: adding 1 good damage by level 12 isn't much, nor it is doubling it on fiends and such.
So, that kind of stuff is going to be broken by your houserule unless you review that too.Thank you for pointing those out. If you know of any more, please let me know.
For the Aura of Faith, in addition to the +1 Good damage, it now also adds the Good trait to the rest of the damage as well. And Alchemical Bomb's splash damage is now equal to the main target's damage. That makes it all the more important for the Bomber Alchemist to eliminate the splash damage if his allies are adjacent to the target.
How? If Good is simply added to the damage type, not replacing the existing ones, it still does Slashing or whatever, Good is simply added to the list. So, by my reckoning, in order to be immune, it would need to be immune to all the damage types, not just 1. For example, the spell Cataclysm is just 1 example. It has multiple damage types: acid, bludgeoning, cold, and fire. If you are immune to Acid it doesn't make you immune to the spell, just the acid part. And if you have a weakness to fire, you would suffer double damage on the fire part up to your weakness value. (Personally, if I were creating the system myself, weakness would simply do double damage and resistance would do half damage. Immunity means you take no damage. But that's not the way it was made, I'm just trying to work with the system we have.) If the entire, single attack has multiple damage types, you need to be immune to all of them to be immune. As long as 1 of the types can hurt you, the damage still gets through, and if you have a weakness to one of them, you still suffer the bonus damage.
It' like hitting a red dragon with a flaming blade. The extra fire damage won't hurt it, but the sword still does.
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And your bombs just became absurdly powerful. Splash damage is dealt to the main target as well, and to everyone on a failed attack roll. Also, how does that interact with the feats that increase splash damage?
You've also nerfed Emblazon Energy, a whole host of Champion abilities, and more. And artificially dialed up the durability of many enemies past the monster creation guidelines. Consider a party with flaming runes against that white dragon. The monster's math dictates it has more hit points with the assumption that hits will often proc that 10 extra damage. But a 1d6 flaming rune weapon can't actually hit 10 damage beyond lucky crits, and will often only inflict 1 or 2 damage.
Also, who is this change actually for? Have one of your players dealt 1d4 slashing to a zombie and then been bummed out that they dealt an extra damage to it?
I've gone through and redone the way bombs work. Ironically, the idea came to me because of the discussion I had in the Electric Arc thread. Here is what I did:
Alchemical Bombs: Make an attack roll vs your target. You do double damage on a critical success, normal damage on a success, half damage on a fail, and no damage on a critical fail (bomb was a dud). The splash effect for targets within the area is 1 step lower than the main target (so if you did double damage to the main target, the splash is the regular damage, if you did regular damage to the main target, the splash is half damage, and if you only did half to the main target, there is no splash damage.) If there are any persistent damage or other effects, they affect anyone damaged.
For the Alchemist abilities and feats, I did the following:
Bomber: You start with the formulas for two 1st-level alchemical bombs in your formula book, in addition to your other formulas. When you attack with a thrown alchemical bomb, you can add your Int. modifier to attack rolls instead of your Dex. modifier. Furthermore, when throwing an alchemical bomb with the splash trait, you can choose to deal damage to only your primary target, no splash area.
Calculated Splash: Because of the changes to bombs and splash damage, this feat adds your Int bonus to the bomb’s damage.
Expanded Splash: In addition to increasing the splash radius to 10 feet, there is now no -1 step reduction for splash damage, they all count as the main targets.
If Good is simply added to the damage type, not replacing the existing ones
I don't think you can ADD damage types in PF2: weapons are all versatile with a different damage: you do either or. Do you know of any instances in the rules that an attack can have 2 types for the same damage?
For instance, cataclysm DOESN'T have multiple damage types on the same damage but gives out multiples damages of different types. It's NOT 21d10 with all those damage types but each damage type doing 3d10. So if you add good to a sword, it stops doing it's normal damage.
That all said, I will definitely agree that the action economy bonus is the number one reason to take Emblazon Armaments. If you are a free-hander (or even a two-hander, since that still lets you cast without dropping your weapon) it's likely to not be as appealing as if you are doing sword-and-board or two-weapon.I might be misunderstanding your power, but I think it implies something that's not quite true.
All weapons/shields let you cast without dropping your weapon as long as the spell has only Verbal and Somatic components. It's only material components that require you to have a hand free (or holding a Divine Focus). You might not need to drop a two-handed weapon, but you still need to release it with one hand before you can cast a material component spell. And since gripping the weapon with two hands again is an action, there's really not that much difference to dropping a one-handed weapon and spending an action to pick it up after the cast.
Although the actions may be the same, my experience is that people tend to feel differently about dropping their weapon than about regripping it. At least my players seem much more willing to spend a feat on not having to drop their weapon, while regripping doesn't concern them as much.
I think it's paranoia about what might happen to your weapon while it is out of your hand.
And that can be justified in some cases - if you are casting 3-action heal, then your weapon is sitting on the ground for an entire round. What if you get pushed, or otherwise prevented from picking it back up?