Derklord |
So, I've just noticed that blowguns are ''Thrown'' weapons.
No, they aren't. The only thing they have in that regard is that they belong to the thrown weapon group. Weapon groups have absolutely zero impact on the machanics of a weapon, except for explicit interaction with some other rule option (explicit means the other rule option, e.g. class feature, contains the word "weapon group").
"Projectile Weapons: Blowguns (...) are projectile weapons. (...) A character gets no Strength bonus on damage rolls with a projectile weapon unless it’s a specially built composite shortbow or longbow, or a sling." CRB pg. 141
Derklord |
startoss is what i was talking about
Except that there is no "wondering whether certain feats are referencing the weapon type or weapon group". The feat is clear as day. The benefits section references weapon group, the special section doesn't. It doesn't make sense to not use the same for both, but the RAW is unambiguous.
Yep Monk weapons and Monk weapon group run into that alot as well.
Actually, they don't. Not in the slightest. The concept us as simple as it gets - "if the phrase 'weapon group' is not used, weapon groups aren't involved". Some people just don't use their brains.
CRB pg. 57: "A monk cannot use any weapon other than an unarmed strike or a special monk weapon as part of a flurry of blows."
CRB pg. 145: "A monk weapon can be used by a monk to perform a flurry of blows (see Chapter 3)."
The first is not really helpful (no definition there), the second is from the weapon special ability rules.
The term "monk weapon" does not appear in the Fighter's description (including the weapon groups), while the word "group" doesn't appear in the Monk's description.
Now, if "monk weapon" meant "weapon in the monk weapon group", you could flurry with any weapon in the monk weapon group, and the monk special weapon quality would be meaningless (apart from stuff like the unMonk's proficiency, written 6 years later). Likewise, if the weapon group was meant by "monk weapon", the Flurry description wouldn't need to say "unarmed strike or a special monk weapon" as unarmed strikes are already in the monk weapon group. When they updated that line for unchained, they changed it to explicitly say "unarmed strikes and weapons that have the monk special weapon quality".
Melkiador |
The benefits section references weapon group, the special section doesn't. It doesn't make sense to not use the same for both, but the RAW is unambiguous.
It makes sense when you consider how valuable page space is. And the meaning difference between the two won't matter for the vast majority of cases.
Derklord |
Except the startoss chain has significant ambiguity, by referencing weapon in the thrown group (which contains slings and blowguns) in the first feat, then using thrown weapon in the 2nd or 3rd, while also referencing "the selected weapon"
Again, no. There is absolutely no ambiguity. Startoss Shower doesn't reference thrown weapons at all*, and Startoss Comet only uses the phrase in the part "you can make a single ranged thrown weapon attack", which isn't about the weapon, but about how you attack with it.
And yes, it is possible to select a weapon with Startoss Style that you can't use Startoss Comet with, namely any weapon in the weapon group you can't make a thrown weapon attack with (like the Blowgun).
*) Well, it does in the cursive description text, but that's not rule text for most feats.
MrCharisma |
Ok here's the text from the Startoss Style feats:
Your thrown weapons become more deadly.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Point-Blank Shot, Weapon Focus with the chosen weapon.
Benefit: Choose one weapon from the thrown fighter weapon group. While using this style and the chosen weapon, you gain a bonus on damage rolls made with the weapon equal to 2 + 2 per style feat you possess that lists Startoss Style as a prerequisite (maximum +6 damage). You cannot use this ability if you are carrying a weapon or a shield in your off hand (except for a buckler).
Special: In addition to the chosen weapon, a character with this feat and the weapon training (thrown) class feature can use Startoss Style with any thrown weapons that she wields in one hand.
You can aim a thrown weapon so it strikes two foes.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Point-Blank Shot, Startoss Style, Weapon Focus with the chosen weapon.
Benefit: As a standard action, you can make a single ranged thrown weapon attack at your full attack bonus with the chosen weapon. If you hit, you deal damage normally and can make a second attack (at your full attack bonus) against a target within one range increment of the first. You determine cover for this attack from the first target’s space instead of your space. You can make only one additional attack per round with this feat. If you have Vital Strike, Improved Vital Strike, or Greater Vital Strike, you can add the additional damage from those feats to the initial ranged attack (but not the second attack).
You can strike multiple opponents with thrown weapons.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Point-Blank Shot, Startoss Comet, Startoss Style, Weapon Focus with the chosen weapon, base attack bonus +4.
Benefit: When you hit an opponent while using the Startoss Comet feat, you can continue to make attacks against foes that are within one range increment of all previous opponents. You determine cover for each attack from the most recently hit foe’s space instead of your space, and you cannot attack an individual foe more than once during this attack action. You can make a maximum number of attacks equal to 1 + 1 per 5 points of base attack bonus you possess. If you have Vital Strike, Improved Vital Strike, or Greater Vital Strike, you can add the additional damage from those feats to the initial ranged attack (but not any subsequent attacks).
I've bolded every mention of thrown weapons, and put every mention of the fighter weapon group in bold and italics.
So from the looks of it you can use Startoss Style with a Blowgun, but not Startoss Comet or Startoss Rain.
@Derklord - While you're right about the definition of Monk Weapons and Thrown Weapons vs their respective groups, it's important not to be dismissive about this. Calling something obvious or "clear as day" can invalidate the trouble someone is having with the rules. That kind of language also tends to discourage curiosity, which is the opposite of what this forum is for.
Each participant in this subforum will have varying levels of experience with the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, and what may seem like an obvious question may be coming from someone who isn't as familiar with more nuanced aspects of the game.
Ryan Freire |
Here's the part that makes him incorrect.
Benefit: As a standard action, you can make a single ranged thrown weapon attack at your full attack bonus with the chosen weapon.
See, english relies a lot on context, and shortcuts for ease of reading. Adding, Weapon from the fighter thrown weapon group over and over not only reads terribly, but eats up valuable page space in a small splatbook. Your word choice bleeding over into an extra page can often lead to content being cut, or prices running over budget.
With context we can see that literally all the style feats in the section Startoss is in follow the same format. Choose a weapon from a group, the feat chains work with THAT weapon unless you have weapon training in the group, at which point you can use them wth any weapon in the group.
So, you can CHOOSE blowgun, with the first feat. The second feat requires the use of the chosen weapon from the first feat chain, and the third merely modifies the use of the second, meaning it also requires the use of the chosen weapon.
In the context of these feats, thrown weapon is shorthand for "weapon from the thrown fighter weapon group" which is wordy and awkward as f%!%. Otherwise you create situations where the feats dont work at all, and if the choice is between a conversational reading that doesn't create situations that render a feat chain useless or otherwise unworking, and a strict legalese reading that can cause a cascading failure...you choose the conversational reading.
MrCharisma |
Here's the part that makes him incorrect.
Startoss Comet wrote:Benefit: As a standard action, you can make a single ranged thrown weapon attack at your full attack bonus with the chosen weapon.
I disagree, and I changed the emphasis in your quote to highlight why.
I imagine the reason there's a discrepancy at all here is because the writer if these feats didn't realise there is a weapon in the fighter group that isn't actually a thrown weapons (because let's face it, that's just silly). As such they wrote a bunch of feats about using "thrown weapons" without realising there was an option you could pick that doesn't actually work with the feats.
So you're right about context, but the context here is to be Xena.
Having said that, I really don't see this as an exceptionally strong group of feats to ise with the blowgun, so if you wanted to use it at my table I'd let you.
Derklord |
@Derklord - While you're right about the definition of Monk Weapons and Thrown Weapons vs their respective groups, it's important not to be dismissive about this. Calling something obvious or "clear as day" can invalidate the trouble someone is having with the rules. That kind of language also tends to discourage curiosity, which is the opposite of what this forum is for.
Do you consider my post directed at the OP to be dismissive? I don't think I'm being dismissing regarding questions, even those where I consider the answer to be obvious. I embrace anyone willing to learn something, but not people unwilling to admit when they're proven wrong.
But Ryan Freire didn't ask questions, not a single one. All he did was make (false) statements without any evidence or even explanation. He literally made a post where an entire line was "You're wrong."!
Ryan Freire |
Probably because you're wrong.
You also choose the least charitable interpretation of the author. That rather than using a perfectly grammatically correct shorthand that references context provided earlier in the feat chain, that they just "forgot" that things like slings and blowguns were in the thrown weapon category.
If it breaks your disbelief to use it with blowguns, it should also break the disbelief to use it with javelins, which are perfectly fine under the more restrictive reading of the feat chain
MrCharisma |
Do you consider my post directed at the OP to be dismissive? I don't think I'm being dismissing regarding questions, even those where I consider the answer to be obvious. I embrace anyone willing to learn something, but not people unwilling to admit when they're proven wrong.
I was mostly referencing your "clear as day" remark in your 3rd post, but your direct tone can come across as abrupt (although I'm sure not intentionally). I'm probably being overly sensitive though, so I'll try to be less paranoid =P
Probably because you're wrong.
On the other hand, this is not constructive at all.
I (we) didn't choose the "least charitable" interpretation, I used the literal interpretation. There IS a difference between "thrown weapon group" and "thrown weapon" as per the rules of the game. Ranged/thrown weapons have different maximum range increments, different "loading" rules and there are feats that work with one but not the other.
I don't have a problem with disbelieving it - as I said, I'd allow it at my table - but having read the rules I see it is disallowing certain options.
As to whether the author forgot or not, you're right I don't know. They could have had very good reasons to disallow certain weapons due to RANGE INCREMENTS or some other rules interaction, we don't know.
Whatever he/she intended, what is written is that it doesn't work with a blowgun.