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Okay I have a question guys
In LOCG Taldans are described:
"Taldans typically have bronze, gold, or tawny skin; lightly curled brown hair; aquiline noses; and green, gray, or amber eyes".
Problem being, now Chelaxians are Taldans like any other
But they've always been black-haired, pale-skinned, and dark- or blue-eyed
So...
Massive retcon?
Or simply, hey, they couldn't explain all the different varieties of Taldan people out there, this is the basics
Which leads to another point...
In official art, how many Taldans are you actually seeing who look like the above description? I mean, "typically", they look like... white people in general?
Kellids are also described as generally having light brown skin even though some have been portrayed as fairly pale in art, though plenty do fit that description. Just that the full range isn't described. To be fair though, the appearance description of both Taldans and Kellids is prefaced by "typically" so there's room for exceptions.
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Kellids are also described as generally having light brown skin even though some have been portrayed as fairly pale in art, though plenty do fit that description. Just that the full range isn't described. To be fair though, the appearance description of both Taldans and Kellids is prefaced by "typically" so there's room for exceptions.
In Cheliax's case, a whole nation of exceptions. Also, I take typically to mean, like, "most commonly", while most Kellids and Taldans I've seen portrayed are completely different from these descriptions.
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Good point.
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Consider also that “Mwangi” still gets used for four distinct ethnicities. Welcome to the club.
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Consider also that “Mwangi” still gets used for four distinct ethnicities. Welcome to the club.
That has always irked me, and even though their physical differences are described in LOCG (and previous products), their culture isn't really touched upon (and was only barely hinted at before that), so yeah, that sucks too.
The peculiar thing that happened here is that an ethnicity that shouldn't have been an ethnicity (Chelaxians) has been folded into the Taldan group, and that's fine, but all mentions of their different physical appearance have vanished. Plus, Taldan "typical" looks don't correspond at all with the art we have.
What are we supposed to do, go back to the old books, consider this a retcon, ignore the art?...
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Consider also that “Mwangi” still gets used for four distinct ethnicities. Welcome to the club.That has always irked me, and even though their physical differences are described in LOCG (and previous products), their culture isn't really touched upon (and was only barely hinted at before that), so yeah, that sucks too.
100% agreed. Same deal with the Tian, though at least with them it's somewhat justified because they're not from the Inner Sea so people there would tend to lump them together. The Mwangi on the other hand are common in the Inner Sea region. I guess even the Keleshites are this way since they have 6 ethnic groups too.
The issue isn't really that diverse but somewhat connected ethnicities are grouped together (even the more specific ethnicities do that) it's more the double standard with those ethnicities and Avistani humans, who get 6 ethnicities which are portrayed as distinct. In my humble opinion they should have either done the same for other ethnic groups (or at least ones native to the ISR) or lumped Avistani groups in a similar way; ie Taldans, Kellids, Nidalese, and something for northwest Avistani (Shoanti, Ulfen, Varisians, Varki, and Jadwiga). Or even just Avistani, Garundi, Keleshite, Mwangi, Tian, Vudrani, etc
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Consider also that “Mwangi” still gets used for four distinct ethnicities. Welcome to the club.That has always irked me, and even though their physical differences are described in LOCG (and previous products), their culture isn't really touched upon (and was only barely hinted at before that), so yeah, that sucks too.100% agreed. Same deal with the Tian, though at least with them it's somewhat justified because they're not from the Inner Sea so people there would tend to lump them together. The Mwangi on the other hand are common in the Inner Sea region. I guess even the Keleshites are this way since they have 6 ethnic groups too.
The issue isn't really that diverse but somewhat connected ethnicities are grouped together (even the more specific ethnicities do that) it's more the double standard with those ethnicities and Avistani humans, who get 6 ethnicities which are portrayed as distinct. In my humble opinion they should have either done the same for other ethnic groups (or at least ones native to the ISR) or lumped Avistani groups in a similar way; ie Taldans, Kellids, Nidalese, and something for northwest Avistani (Shoanti, Ulfen, Varisians, Varki, and Jadwiga). Or even just Avistani, Garundi, Keleshite, Mwangi, Tian, Vudrani, etc
I think they just shouldn't lump ethnicities together, but back in the day it happened with the Mwangi and Tian, so the best they can do now is pointing out how different each Mwangi and Tian group actually is and giving us actual details about them - and possibly stop calling them just "Mwangi" and "Tian" and instead using their actual names (Bekyar, Bonuwat, Tian-Min, Tian-Dtang) and write a paragraph like the Ulfen's or the Nidalese's for each of them.
The Tians thankfully received a slightly longer treatment in LOCG, but it's still very sparse (even more than white ethnicities, because they had to fit all of them under a single header).
And as you say, Keleshites have a similar problem - in their setting book we discovered they're actually a grouping of many different ethnicities. That's the right move, as far as I'm concerned (it's impossible for a huge empire to be populated by a single monolithic ethnicity), but again, what we know touches mostly upon the Althameri, and LOCG doesn't talk about them or their sister-tribes for more than a few lines.
At this point I'm left wishing for an actual product about Golarion's ethnic groups and cultures, with no new ancestries and no faction stuff. It won't happen for quite some time (or ever...), but in the meantime I suppose I can only use the old books to flesh out the new info. And while I know they're all still valid, I then happen upon things like the Taldan-Chelaxian merging and I can't help but wonder.
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That would be pretty cool, actually.
Kellids are also described as generally having light brown skin even though some have been portrayed as fairly pale in art, though plenty do fit that description. Just that the full range isn't described. To be fair though, the appearance description of both Taldans and Kellids is prefaced by "typically" so there's room for exceptions.In Cheliax's case, a whole nation of exceptions. Also, I take typically to mean, like, "most commonly", while most Kellids and Taldans I've seen portrayed are completely different from these descriptions.
Also remember that the Inner Sea Guide mentions that there are Taldans in Cheliax, so there would be a wide variety of appearances among the people of Cheliax anyway. From the way the Nidalese are described in PF2, it seems possible that the Chelaxian beauty ideal is most often achieved by mixing Taldan and Nidalese ancestry and hoping that the genetic dice roll just right.
Also remember that the Inner Sea Guide mentions that there are Taldans in Cheliax, so there would be a wide variety of appearances among the people of Cheliax anyway. From the way the Nidalese are described in PF2, it seems possible that the Chelaxian beauty ideal is most often achieved by mixing Taldan and Nidalese ancestry and hoping that the genetic dice roll just right.
True, Nidalese ended up looking a lot like Chels in the end.
In other news, I asked JJ about Chels and Taldans. Here's his reply.