Giant Instinct Barbarian, another question


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It seems everybody else gains more from the level 6 feat Giant's Stature than... the only ones that can take it?

That is, you are already wielding a large-sized weapon, though with Clumsy 1 because the weapon is too large for you.

By actually becoming Large you presumably negate that advantage... but gain Clumsy 1 for being too large?

I realize reach +5 is good, but it feels weird that the ability carefully negates every advantage you expect.

Have I missed anything, or is Giant's Stature only a very roundabout way of saying "gain 5 ft reach"?

- you don't get rid of Clumsy 1
- your weapon doesn't do more damage (it's unclear if it becomes huge or not, but either way: no change in game stats), you don't even gain Enlarge's +2 damage


You also gain the benefit of taking up more space. This sounds dumb, but denying your opponents the ability to easily walk past you to reach your caster can be a boon.

To note, your equipment grows with you, so your large weapon actually becomes huge. But since conditions don't stack with the same condition from another source, you are still only Clumsy 1. I can only imagine that Giant's Stature gives you Clumsy 1 because you could technically be wielding a properly sized weapon instead of your Large one and the Enlarge spell gives Clumsy 1.

Another interesting bit: Any equipment you have with you is enlarged to scale and seems to stay that way until You shrink. This is important because equipment enlarged with the enlarge person spell returns to normal size if it is removed. I remember in PF1 the ruling was that if you enlarge an archer, their arrow is only Large until they shoot them, at which point they shrink back to normal size and do their normal damage die.

This has some interesting ramifications. You could carry a ladder and have it enlarge to much larger proportions than a ladder you could naturally haul around. You could get extra Rope out of your rope, though I suppose it will be overall larger so harder to grab in hand.

This could just be something they missed, but as is, Giant's Stature is just an upgrade of Enlarge Person. You get more damage out of it from your increased Rage Damage. It can be used multiple times a day, basically every time you rage. And it gives you short but usable amounts of time with enlarged equipment.


Doesn't the reach stack as well? so You'd have a 10 reach and be taking up more squares?


Taking more space in the field means that you have more squares that you can attack as well.

Normal Reach for Medium creatures mean 8 squares that you can attack and 24 squares with Reach 10.

Large creatures with normal reach are 12 squares and 32 squares with reach 10.


Darksyde wrote:
Doesn't the reach stack as well? so You'd have a 10 reach and be taking up more squares?

Enlarge Person and Giant's Stature both make you specifically Large, so they do not stack with each other.


The real advantage is that a giant instinct barbarian should be using a reach weapon, so that when enlarged they now affect 15 ft away from them instead of 10 and are a better meat shield for the rest of the party.

But no, it doesn't come with a "damage" upgrade or anything like that. The benefits are size and reach (though size is also a drawback too).

And yeah, the large weapon you're wielding becomes huge, but you don't stack conditions so each grants you clumsy 1 for a total of clumsy .

So you don't lose anything and you gain reach.

It also means who you can use athletics against is increased, though their is a skill feat for that as well.


Claxon wrote:
The real advantage is that a giant instinct barbarian should be using a reach weapon, so that when enlarged they now affect 15 ft away from them instead of 10 and are a better meat shield for the rest of the party.

I think that is where I got mixed up. I could have sworn I read something about large weapons having reach but I think the first giant barbarian I made used a reach weapon to double down.

You do get a rather sizable damage bonus to your rage damage though. For some reason that feels over looked in the discussions I've seen about the giant rager. +6 damage is no joke especialy since you probly started with 18 str + what ever you roll on the dice all for a -1 to hit.

I can't help but feel people forget you have to wait for your specialization damage bonus so out of the box the giant rager does more damage at the expense of less, lets call it, finesse. It is definitely the 'mongo smash' option but that can be fun too. :)


beowulf99 wrote:
...

Unless I missed it you don't actually confirm or deny or even acknowledge any of my concerns, so let me ask again:

First you gain Clumsy 1 because the weapon is Large while you remain Medium. But growing to become Large doesn't remove the Clumsy?!

You might say your weapon actually becomes Huge. But... there seems to be exactly zero benefit for that - all it does is justify you keeping your Clumsy 1? No extra damage for wielding a huge weapon. No extra reach even. So why would you want your weapon to become huge?

It feels like an earlier iteration gave the size benefits to the barbarian when he actually changed size... and then they hastily realized the class needed the damage benefit earlier, so they moved that to 1st level. Then they realized the didn't want the class to gain that damage without the Clumsy penalty for five whole levels. So they moved that too.

What we have left is an inelegant unintuitive feat.


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Getting +5 reach is plenty for a feat. Better than most.

And yea, clumsy does not stack. It just means you are still clumsy if you had a regular sized weapon.


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I addressed all of your questions. You get clumsy because growing makes you clumsy, regardless of the size of weapon you wield.

The damage bonus is built into the increased Rage damage you get as a giant totem barbarian.

There are other benefits. I outlined 2. More size for area denial and the possibility that your equipment stays enlarged as long as you do, even if you throw/shoot or drop it on the ground. These are all benefits.

What more do you need?


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Darksyde wrote:
Claxon wrote:
The real advantage is that a giant instinct barbarian should be using a reach weapon, so that when enlarged they now affect 15 ft away from them instead of 10 and are a better meat shield for the rest of the party.

I think that is where I got mixed up. I could have sworn I read something about large weapons having reach but I think the first giant barbarian I made used a reach weapon to double down.

You do get a rather sizable damage bonus to your rage damage though. For some reason that feels over looked in the discussions I've seen about the giant rager. +6 damage is no joke especialy since you probly started with 18 str + what ever you roll on the dice all for a -1 to hit.

I can't help but feel people forget you have to wait for your specialization damage bonus so out of the box the giant rager does more damage at the expense of less, lets call it, finesse. It is definitely the 'mongo smash' option but that can be fun too. :)

Well, the damage bonus from Instinct specialization isn't dependent on the giant stature though, it comes from wielding a large weapon.

You could in fact not take giant stature or titan stature and have the same damage bonus as a giant instinct barbarian that did.

Of course, you'd be keeping yourself out of the main attractions of that Instinct, in my opinion.


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Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Zapp wrote:
What we have left is an inelegant unintuitive feat.

From an isolated viewpoint, sure. The likely explanations seem fairly straightforward.

Why give clumsy 1 when you already get it from the oversized weapon?

Well:
- First, it's consistent with other methods to increase size (like the enlarge spell)
- Second, the giant instinct barbarian is only clumsy 1 when they use the oversized weapon. They can opt not to, which they may be required to do in any scenario where, for some reason, they don't have or want to use their oversized weapon. In these cases, they would not be already be clumsy 1, so the ability is not redundant.

Why not increase damage when changing size?

Well:
- It's not for consistency with other size increases; the spell enlarge gives a small status bonus to damage.
It's probably for balance:
- The giant instinct already gets a solid damage boost above what the other instincts have
- The size change here comes for free with something you would do anyway - no extra action or limited resource or anything.
- The enlarge spell actually still works as a superior alternative, as it will give its minor damage increases on top of the larger bonuses from raging, especially if wielding a 2-handed oversized weapon.


Mellored wrote:

Getting +5 reach is plenty for a feat. Better than most.

And yea, clumsy does not stack. It just means you are still clumsy if you had a regular sized weapon.

Absolutely.

But it's an awfully roundabout way of accomplishing that.

I mean, instead of the feat extending your arms changing nothing else, you have a size increase (that people expect does plenty but mostly does nothing) and a re-application of the Clumsy status.

It's just Clumsy, that's all.


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beowulf99 wrote:
What more do you need?

If you read my posts I'm sure you'll eventually get it. Cheers


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Zapp wrote:
beowulf99 wrote:
What more do you need?
If you read my posts I'm sure you'll eventually get it.

Okay other benefits of being large. Allows the Grappling or shoving or disarming or Tripping of Huge creatures. While there are no size specific bonuses when targeting smaller creatures in this edition, the Barbarian has plenty of Grab centered Feats to utilize in a Grab based Titan build. And tripping a Huge creature is a great way of evening the odds. Furious Grab with Brutal Bully and Thrash/Collateral Thrash could be a fun way of throwing around a Dragon while still punishing his Kobold worshipers.

Get Titan Stature and start suplexing Tyrannosaurus' and the like.

I really feel like you aren't getting the benefits of being Large. No, you do not become a literal Giant with stats to match. What does happen is you gain a ton of utility in your ability to effect creatures not normally able to be tripped or grappled and just straight up being a roadblock (or if your ally is small Standard Cover!) for your allies.

Expecting a single Class Feat to give you benefits on par with LVL 8 or 10 spells like Avatar or Nature Incarnate is just reaching for too much.

If this still isn't enough, answer me this: What is your expectation of what this feat gives you?


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Zapp wrote:
beowulf99 wrote:
What more do you need?
If you read my posts I'm sure you'll eventually get it. Cheers

I've read your posts and still don't get it.

It seems like your main gripe is that Giant Stature applies the clumsy 1 condition, and you don't like that because Titan Mauler does that. But Titan Mauler does that only if you wield large size weapons. And Giant Stature includes the penalty in case for some reason you're not wielding a large size weapon.

Is it needed? Maybe, I dunno. Paizo clearly thought it was, and it keeps parity with Enlarge spell. Maybe Giant Stature needed to just say "This works like the enlarge spell except the damage bonus doesn't stack with Titan Mauler". It also doesn't matter if you play the character in the obviously intended way, using large weapons.

We've gone over the benefits of Giant Stature, size and reach and area denial.

So what is it you're looking for?


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Zapp wrote:

I mean, instead of the feat extending your arms changing nothing else, you have a size increase (that people expect does plenty but mostly does nothing) and a re-application of the Clumsy status.

It's just Clumsy, that's all.

It's the "I turn into a giant" barbarian path, not the "I have wacky noodle arms" barbarian.

If you ignore all the benefits that have been pointed out several times, then yes it's just clumsy.


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BellyBeard wrote:
Zapp wrote:

I mean, instead of the feat extending your arms changing nothing else, you have a size increase (that people expect does plenty but mostly does nothing) and a re-application of the Clumsy status.

It's just Clumsy, that's all.

It's the "I turn into a giant" barbarian path, not the "I have wacky noodle arms" barbarian.

If you ignore all the benefits that have been pointed out several times, then yes it's just clumsy.

Noodle Instinct barbarian, anyone?


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Perpdepog wrote:
BellyBeard wrote:
Zapp wrote:

I mean, instead of the feat extending your arms changing nothing else, you have a size increase (that people expect does plenty but mostly does nothing) and a re-application of the Clumsy status.

It's just Clumsy, that's all.

It's the "I turn into a giant" barbarian path, not the "I have wacky noodle arms" barbarian.

If you ignore all the benefits that have been pointed out several times, then yes it's just clumsy.

Noodle Instinct barbarian, anyone?

*Urge to roll up a barbarian intensifies.

Sovereign Court

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In my house rules it gives you all the effects of Enlarge Person, including the +2 damage. And the Titan's Stature gives all the effects of a Heightened Enlarge Person. I don't want there to be multiple different effects when you enlarge yourself, with spells being different from the Barbarian feats, etc. Enlarge person has 1 set of effects based on your new size, no matter how you do it.


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Giant's Instinct appear way much cooler than the measly +2 damage bonus (relative to other Instincts) you actually get, especially considering the significant penalty in the form of Clumsy - that you can't get rid of (without also losing the point of taking that Instinct).

Giant's Stature intuitively makes you think "now I'm finally going to get rid of Clumsy and do some real damage". Nope. It's a feat that gives you reach and... that's just about it. (Yeah, you now also occupy four squares which can be a real b+#+* in many locations)

The interaction between abilities should not have handed out Clumsy 1 "because your weapon is too large for you" only to then, when you actually get to grow bigger, replace that with Clumsy 1 "because now you're too big".

The rules should also have been much more upfront with "your weapon doesn't actually do more damage just because it, or you, become bigger".

If you can't see the mismatch between description, expectations and actual rules outcome here, I'm afraid you've become entirely blind to the notion that your beloved Paizo can make mistakes.

I really should not have to spell out the obvious, guys.

I refuse to believe you didn't see this. On the other hand, the alternative - that you refuse to see flaws with your favorite game or pretend they do not exist - isn't much better.


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Zapp wrote:

Giant's Instinct appear way much cooler than the measly +2 damage bonus (relative to other Instincts) you actually get, especially considering the significant penalty in the form of Clumsy - that you can't get rid of (without also losing the point of taking that Instinct).

Giant's Stature intuitively makes you think "now I'm finally going to get rid of Clumsy and do some real damage". Nope. It's a feat that gives you reach and... that's just about it. (Yeah, you now also occupy four squares which can be a real b@$%! in many locations)

The interaction between abilities should not have handed out Clumsy 1 "because your weapon is too large for you" only to then, when you actually get to grow bigger, replace that with Clumsy 1 "because now you're too big".

The rules should also have been much more upfront with "your weapon doesn't actually do more damage just because it, or you, become bigger".

If you can't see the mismatch between description, expectations and actual rules outcome here, I'm afraid you've become entirely blind to the notion that your beloved Paizo can make mistakes.

I really should not have to spell out the obvious, guys.

I refuse to believe you didn't see this. On the other hand, the alternative - that you refuse to see flaws with your favorite game or pretend they do not exist - isn't much better.

I will ask you again, what do you want from 1 class feat? You get the ability to just give yourself more reach on top of threatening far more space.

It feels like you are hung up on clumsy. Well, let's take a look at why you get clumsy.

Clumsy wrote:

Your movements become clumsy and inexact. Clumsy

always includes a value. You take a status penalty equal
to the condition value to Dexterity-based checks and
DCs, including AC, Reflex saves, ranged attack rolls, and
skill checks using Acrobatics, Stealth, and Thievery.

You are the groups Barbarian. Should you be shooting a bow like an archer? No. Clumsy addresses that. Should you be nimble and hard to hit? No. Clumsy addresses that. You are a literal giant in a china shop. So should you be dodging around with Acrobatics or sneaking or stealing from people? No. Clumsy Addresses that.

Do you want to be a nimble and accurate combatant? Be a fighter. Do you want to be the giant lump of angry whirling battleaxe that enemies simply cannot ignore who's capacity to deal damage (in big single hits) is second to none? Who has more health than basically anyone else in the party and can Take hits that would drop the mage? Be a giant instinct barbarian then.

The only penalty that Clumsy realistically imposes on your Barbarian is the -1 AC and Ref. Nothing else about it will materially impact your ability to be what you are: A Giant Barbarian. And remember, you have the health and damage reduction to more than make up for that -1 AC.

Stop whining about Clumsy. +5 Reach is more than enough of a reason to use Giant's Stature. Maybe this Instinct isn't for you if it doesn't feel like it is.


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Zapp wrote:

Giant's Stature intuitively makes you think "now I'm finally going to get rid of Clumsy and do some real damage". Nope. It's a feat that gives you reach and... that's just about it. (Yeah, you now also occupy four squares which can be a real b+~%+ in many locations)

The interaction between abilities should not have handed out Clumsy 1 "because your weapon is too large for you" only to then, when you actually get to grow bigger, replace that with Clumsy 1 "because now you're too big".

The rules should also have been much more upfront with "your weapon doesn't actually do more damage just because it, or you, become bigger".

If you can't see the mismatch between description, expectations and actual rules outcome here, I'm afraid you've become entirely blind to the notion that your beloved Paizo can make mistakes.

I really should not have to spell out the obvious, guys.

I refuse to believe you didn't see this. On the other hand, the alternative - that you refuse to see flaws with your favorite game or pretend they do not exist - isn't much better.

Giant Stature never made me think that Zapp. I think you just have different expectations, that don't align with a lot of people.

It's not that Paizo can't make mistakes, there are plenty of them in PF2 in my opinion. But this specific issue isn't a mistake. It was a purposeful design decision made to keep the game simple.

Giant Stature could have added a damage bonus that combined with the Rage Specialization damage bonus, equal to what is currently given in total. But they put it all in one to make it simple. Which does have the peculiar effect of Giant Instinct not gaining damage by growing to Giant size, because all your damage bonus comes from wielding a large size weapon.

And barring Enlarge spell, I don't think there are other methods of really becoming larger size (without polymoprh effects which set you weapon damage) so there's not a lot to compare to for how getting larger should work. Except that they removed the option to wield larger weapons for an increase in damage die, so that's an indication that for mechanical reasons they don't want damage increases to be linked to size.


Giant barbs start with +2 damage.
Then they get reach.


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Personally, I think Giant Instinct is thematically the coolest while mechanically the worst of the Barbarian Instincts. I would've handled it much differently than Paizo did but at this point debating what it should be is worthless. They're not going to errata it out of existence or replace it with an all-new, better Giant Barbarian.


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HeHateMe wrote:
Personally, I think Giant Instinct is thematically the coolest while mechanically the worst of the Barbarian Instincts. I would've handled it much differently than Paizo did but at this point debating what it should be is worthless. They're not going to errata it out of existence or replace it with an all-new, better Giant Barbarian.

Just pretend the +6 to damage comes from getting bigger, not from using your special weapon, and I think you'll like the instinct. Likely the only reason they didn't do that is because you can't change size at level 1.


Here, I made a highly technical diagram to demonstrate. Imagine you are the green dot, trying to hit the pesky blue dot, who could be a cloistered cleric or wizard or archer or whatever. The Barbarian is the black dot. The dark red is regular reach, the light pink includes a reach weapon.

If there was no barbarian, it would take 40 feet movement to get to melee with the blue dot.

With a barbarian using a non-reach weapon, the movement to get to melee with the blue dot, assuming you want to avoid AoO, is 45 feet for medium or 55 for large barbarian. Makes a 25' speed go from 2 moves to 3. If you include a reach weapon, the distances change to 55 feet for medium and 70 for large. So now a 30' speed also can't reach them with 2 moves. At this point, if they really want to hit the blue dot, they will probably be taking an AoO and possibly trying to Tumble Through the Barbarian, depending on speed. The blue dot can also position themselves to be 5 feet farther away with the large barbarian diagram by moving right 5 feet, but I didn't do that to keep the example even.

Effectively, you take up so much space that enemies are probably going to just soak your AoOs and/or focus you. Which are normally both good things.

And of course, the Barbarian with superior reach can force the enemy to take an AoO by standing closer to them, but that is less effective at protecting his blue dot in this scenario (because then they just run right past, since they will take the hit anyways).

Simple example, but hopefully illustrates the fact that putting a big barbarian in the way makes them a more effective meat shield than a smaller one. Add in restricting terrain and other party members/enemies and the value of that large area denial increases. Sometimes you can even block a 10 foot passage completely, terrain permitting.

Of course, we haven't talked about the fact that giant's instinct also goes up to huge, and can give reach to non-reach weapons too. And how effective Whirlwind Strike can be with it. But those all come quite late.

Its probably one of the better instincts for tanking, which is unintuitive because of the extra AC penalty. But especially in this edition, battlefield control is more important for tanking than being a meatier meat shield.


HeHateMe wrote:
Personally, I think Giant Instinct is thematically the coolest while mechanically the worst of the Barbarian Instincts. I would've handled it much differently than Paizo did but at this point debating what it should be is worthless. They're not going to errata it out of existence or replace it with an all-new, better Giant Barbarian.

Care to elaborate on the mechanically worse part?

The giant instinct barbarian has the highest weapon static damage modifier of any class currently in the game. And unlike in the play test, clumsy no longer is a penalty to melee weapon attacks (IIRC, the play test version gave a -1 to all attacks).

If the fighter didn't have the +2 attack bonus over the barbarian, the giant instinct barbarian would likely have the highest weapon DPR.


Claxon wrote:
If the fighter didn't have the +2 attack bonus over the barbarian, the giant instinct barbarian would likely have the highest weapon DPR.

Given dragon barb and fighter are tied for damage, that means the Giant barb has the highest DPR. With the option for getting really good reach as well.

It just gives up some defense to do it.


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Claxon wrote:
HeHateMe wrote:
Personally, I think Giant Instinct is thematically the coolest while mechanically the worst of the Barbarian Instincts. I would've handled it much differently than Paizo did but at this point debating what it should be is worthless. They're not going to errata it out of existence or replace it with an all-new, better Giant Barbarian.

Care to elaborate on the mechanically worse part?

The giant instinct barbarian has the highest weapon static damage modifier of any class currently in the game. And unlike in the play test, clumsy no longer is a penalty to melee weapon attacks (IIRC, the play test version gave a -1 to all attacks).

If the fighter didn't have the +2 attack bonus over the barbarian, the giant instinct barbarian would likely have the highest weapon DPR.

I hate relying on special "giant weapons" for all of my class abilities. If it were me, I would've toned down the extra damage to the same level as dragon, and instead of forcing players to find large weapons, I would've just allowed Giant Instinct Barbs to wield two-handed weapons in one hand.

I also would dump the Clumsy condition. No other instinct has a drawback like that on its core abilities. Frankly, the whole Giant instinct is a horrid mess mechanically. Too bad, because the idea of Giant Instinct just oozes coolness.


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Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Zapp wrote:

If you can't see the mismatch between description, expectations and actual rules outcome here, I'm afraid you've become entirely blind to the notion that your beloved Paizo can make mistakes.

I really should not have to spell out the obvious, guys.

I refuse to believe you didn't see this. On the other hand, the alternative - that you refuse to see flaws with your favorite game or pretend they do not exist - isn't much better.

This is incredibly condescending and involves projecting emotion into the evaluation. You may weigh the merits of the options differently, but that doesn't mean we're blind or reality-denying fanboys.

Whether giant stature's size mechanics mismatch expectations is debatable because expectations obviously vary, but I won't argue that it's happening for some.

Still, the appropriate action is to evaluate what it does not what we thought it would do when we read the name and the description.

Reach is *hugely* valuable. Reach on something like a big ol' d12 great axe (with sweep), and eventually combos like Whirlwind Strike are cool. Before then, Swipe and Cleave can get some good value there. It's great for flanking with 3 melee characters - you can stand behind one of your allies and still get the bonus. It means your opponent usually has to spend an extra action to get to you to attack, reducing their options.

Getting that stuff with the biggest static damage bonus of all the instincts is also cool. Having a minor penalty to a bunch of dex stuff is perfectly thematic (think of it as the size modifier to hit and to AC from PF1 if you wish, except it doesn't penalize your to-hit numbers with Str-based attacks).

The giant instinct barbarian in my group uses reach all the time to hit enemies he otherwise could not have gotten to (he's wielding a reach weapon and is not yet high enough level to actually increase in size). At 8, he'll have 15' reach, and it will be great.

I haven't even addressed how the size increase makes Athletics maneuvers better. Some of them are specifically dependent on size, and, well, wouldn't you know it; these size increases give more options there, too.


RicoTheBold wrote:
Reach is *hugely* valuable. Reach on something like a big ol' d12 great axe (with sweep), and eventually combos like Whirlwind Strike are cool. Before then, Swipe and Cleave can get some good value there. It's great for flanking with 3 melee characters - you can stand behind one of your allies and still get the bonus. It means your opponent usually has to spend an extra action to get to you to attack, reducing their options.

I like Fauchard. Reach and Sweep. Trip isn't bad either for a "squishy" barbarian.


Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Mellored wrote:
RicoTheBold wrote:
Reach is *hugely* valuable. Reach on something like a big ol' d12 great axe (with sweep), and eventually combos like Whirlwind Strike are cool. Before then, Swipe and Cleave can get some good value there. It's great for flanking with 3 melee characters - you can stand behind one of your allies and still get the bonus. It means your opponent usually has to spend an extra action to get to you to attack, reducing their options.
I like Fauchard. Reach and Sweep. Trip isn't bad either for a "squishy" barbarian.

That character is a goblin wielding a large guisarme trading the die size of a d12 weapon for reach and trip at d10. Plus, it's hilarious to me because I imagine it as about 15' long, which is 5 times his height. Trip has been pretty successful on a bunch of enemies as a 3rd attack by using Assurance, and it's very much an intended part of the build.

I hadn't noticed the fauchard yet and will have to suggest it as a potential alternative he may want to consider. The deadly d8 on top of sweep help make up for dropping from a d10 in damage.


HeHateMe wrote:
Frankly, the whole Giant instinct is a horrid mess mechanically.

Thank you.

HeHateMe wrote:
Too bad, because the idea of Giant Instinct just oozes coolness.

Yes, the resulting mechanics are not the worst ever, it's that the process of getting there feels disjointed and unintuitive.

You could almost call it... Clumsy. *raises sunglasses*


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HeHateMe wrote:

I hate relying on special "giant weapons" for all of my class abilities. If it were me, I would've toned down the extra damage to the same level as dragon, and instead of forcing players to find large weapons, I would've just allowed Giant Instinct Barbs to wield two-handed weapons in one hand.

I also would dump the Clumsy condition. No other instinct has a drawback like that on its core abilities. Frankly, the whole Giant instinct is a horrid mess mechanically. Too bad, because the idea of Giant Instinct just oozes coolness.

I wonder why no other instinct has a drawback like that. Perhaps it's because giant does the most damage and gets massive reach, making them potentially the highest DPR in the game. Or maybe just because the developers didn't like giants and threw unnecessary nerfs on it.

Allowing 2-handed in one hand, and removing the clumsy, would definitely make this the #1 instinct. Just reread the spirit instinct or fury instinct and compare the numbers.


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HeHateMe wrote:
Claxon wrote:
HeHateMe wrote:
Personally, I think Giant Instinct is thematically the coolest while mechanically the worst of the Barbarian Instincts. I would've handled it much differently than Paizo did but at this point debating what it should be is worthless. They're not going to errata it out of existence or replace it with an all-new, better Giant Barbarian.

Care to elaborate on the mechanically worse part?

The giant instinct barbarian has the highest weapon static damage modifier of any class currently in the game. And unlike in the play test, clumsy no longer is a penalty to melee weapon attacks (IIRC, the play test version gave a -1 to all attacks).

If the fighter didn't have the +2 attack bonus over the barbarian, the giant instinct barbarian would likely have the highest weapon DPR.

I hate relying on special "giant weapons" for all of my class abilities. If it were me, I would've toned down the extra damage to the same level as dragon, and instead of forcing players to find large weapons, I would've just allowed Giant Instinct Barbs to wield two-handed weapons in one hand.

I also would dump the Clumsy condition. No other instinct has a drawback like that on its core abilities. Frankly, the whole Giant instinct is a horrid mess mechanically. Too bad, because the idea of Giant Instinct just oozes coolness.

Hold up, you hate the core instinct ability but think the instinct has cool flavor? I think the whole thematic appeal of the class is that it lets you do the Final Fantasy enormous sword thing.

Giant Instinct and Giant Stature are fine by me as is.


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Giant instinct seems to have a trade for its huge extra damage and reach utilities.

It is also the only build who can have a 15 feet reach with axes, in order to perform swipe attacks even without the needs of a stride or a step.

Definitely a good build.


Mellored wrote:
Claxon wrote:
If the fighter didn't have the +2 attack bonus over the barbarian, the giant instinct barbarian would likely have the highest weapon DPR.

Given dragon barb and fighter are tied for damage, that means the Giant barb has the highest DPR. With the option for getting really good reach as well.

It just gives up some defense to do it.

I'm not sure if that's true or not, I thought the attack bonus of the fighter outweighed anything else the other classes have.

What makes the Dragon Barbarian tie with the fighter?

Definitely the Giant Barbarian should deal the most weapon damage out of any barbarians, what the dragon brings to the table is versatility and an AoE energy attack (Breath Weapon).


Dragon barb and fighter are definitely not equal in terms of dmg.

A Fighter can't tag up with a 1d6/lvl dmg on a wide area every hour. And even if they push and the barbarian would like to use if without allowing it to full recover it would be the same.

The fighter is great at landing critical hits, and also has a better second attack for the same reason.

Is most likely that a fighter hit with 2 attacks,while the barbarian just 1. But he has some extra dmg due to the rage.

That's why power attack is great for a barbarian.

The problem is when a barbarian deals xx dmg to 8 targets.

The fighter can't keep up with him.

From lvl 1 to lvl 3 The fighter will be way stronger. Then the barbarian will get attack power too.

At lvl 6 a fighter will get furious focus, but the barbarian will take his dragon's breath.

By lvl 12 the barbarian will take furious focus, and the fighter his dragon's breath ( but his dc will not increase past trained ).

By lvl 16 the barbarian will get reckless abandon, which will give him +2 circ hit while under 1/2 hp.

A lvl 16 barbarian will have 298 hp (+5 const, toughness + mountain stoutness ), which means he will be having 148 hp or less during a fight, to get his circ bonus ( I raccomend doing this ).

They are both definitely top dps, but I personally see the barbarian two steps ahead.


K1 wrote:
Giant instinct seems to have a trade for its huge extra damage and reach utilities.

It does +2 damage over the next Instinct.

That's not what I'd call "huge".

Remove Clumsy 1 from the base ability, make Giant Stature work identically to Enlarge, and then (if you must) give a distinct and separate rule for "using a weapon larger than you" (complete with advantages and disadvantages).

That way you can stay with weapons your own size (to avoid the oversized weapon penalty but then not getting the oversized weapon bonus), and you can avoid Enlarge / Giant's Stature (to avoid the Clumsy penalty but then not getting the bonuses for being Enlarged).

That way you can embiggen yourself, your weapon, both or none. Clean, clear rules.

You could almost call it... Elegant. *raises sunglasses*


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You start from +2 and go for +18.
Higher than any other instinct, apart from dragon instinct ( which However could be meningless if the target had resistance to that element. So you are way, way better ).

You will also have reach and can use larger weapons.

Do not want reach or to use larger weapons?

Go one of the other specializations.

Easy.

But don't claim the spec is unbalanced.


Claxon wrote:

I'm not sure if that's true or not, I thought the attack bonus of the fighter outweighed anything else the other classes have.

What makes the Dragon Barbarian tie with the fighter?

Fighters get +2 to hit and +1/2 damage (higher weapon specialization).

Dragon Barbs get +4/8/16 to damage.
And giant get's +2 damage over dragon.
*Assuming they are raging, of course.

math:

level 4.
Fighter
50% chance to hit, 25% chance to crit + 45% chance to hit, 5% crit.
(.5 + .25*2)+(.45 + .05 *2) = 1.55
2d12+4 = 17 * 1.55
=26.35

Barbarian
50% hit, 15% crit + 35% hit, 5% crit
(.5 + .15*2)+(.35 + .05 *2) = 1.25
2d12+4+4 = 21 * 1.25
= 26.25

Giant
2d12+4+6 = 22 * 1.25
=27.5

Level 15.

Fighter
50% chance to hit, 25% chance to crit + 45% chance to hit, 5% crit.
(.5 + .25*2)+(.45 + .05 *2) = 1.55
3d12+5+8 = 32.5 * 1.55
=50.375

Dragon Barbarian
50% hit, 15% crit + 35% hit, 5% crit
(.5 + .15*2)+(.35 + .05 *2) = 1.25
3d12+5+6+16 = 46.5 * 1.25
= 58.125

To toss giants into the mix.
3d12+5+6+18 = 48.5 * 1.25
=60.625


Captain Morgan wrote:
HeHateMe wrote:
Claxon wrote:
HeHateMe wrote:
Personally, I think Giant Instinct is thematically the coolest while mechanically the worst of the Barbarian Instincts. I would've handled it much differently than Paizo did but at this point debating what it should be is worthless. They're not going to errata it out of existence or replace it with an all-new, better Giant Barbarian.

Care to elaborate on the mechanically worse part?

The giant instinct barbarian has the highest weapon static damage modifier of any class currently in the game. And unlike in the play test, clumsy no longer is a penalty to melee weapon attacks (IIRC, the play test version gave a -1 to all attacks).

If the fighter didn't have the +2 attack bonus over the barbarian, the giant instinct barbarian would likely have the highest weapon DPR.

I hate relying on special "giant weapons" for all of my class abilities. If it were me, I would've toned down the extra damage to the same level as dragon, and instead of forcing players to find large weapons, I would've just allowed Giant Instinct Barbs to wield two-handed weapons in one hand.

I also would dump the Clumsy condition. No other instinct has a drawback like that on its core abilities. Frankly, the whole Giant instinct is a horrid mess mechanically. Too bad, because the idea of Giant Instinct just oozes coolness.

Hold up, you hate the core instinct ability but think the instinct has cool flavor? I think the whole thematic appeal of the class is that it lets you do the Final Fantasy enormous sword thing.

Giant Instinct and Giant Stature are fine by me as is.

I think the idea of turning into a giant is awesome. The comically ridiculous oversized weapon is horrible. Also needlessly complicated.


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There's no accounting for taste I suppose.


HeHateMe wrote:


Also needlessly complicated.

Thank you!


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K1 wrote:
But don't claim the spec is unbalanced.

Not sure who you're talking to so just to be sure:

I'm not saying it's unbalanced.

I am saying it's convoluted and inelegant.


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Zapp wrote:
K1 wrote:
But don't claim the spec is unbalanced.

Not sure who you're talking to so just to be sure:

I'm not saying it's unbalanced.

I am saying it's convoluted and inelegant.

It also leaves some questions unanswered. For example, how do Small size ancestries work with Giant Instinct? Do they need a special Large size weapon too? Or does a Medium size weapon work for them?

Also, why can a Giant Instinct Barbarian pick up and wield a dead Frost Giant's battleaxe in one hand but they can't do the same thing with a medium size Greataxe? The mechanics are super lame.


HeHateMe wrote:
Zapp wrote:
K1 wrote:
But don't claim the spec is unbalanced.

Not sure who you're talking to so just to be sure:

I'm not saying it's unbalanced.

I am saying it's convoluted and inelegant.

It also leaves some questions unanswered. For example, how do Small size ancestries work with Giant Instinct? Do they need a special Large size weapon too? Or does a Medium size weapon work for them?

Also, why can a Giant Instinct Barbarian pick up and wield a dead Frost Giant's battleaxe in one hand but they can't do the same thing with a medium size Greataxe? The mechanics are super lame.

There's no distinction between small and medium weapons anymore.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Captain Morgan wrote:
HeHateMe wrote:
Zapp wrote:
K1 wrote:
But don't claim the spec is unbalanced.

Not sure who you're talking to so just to be sure:

I'm not saying it's unbalanced.

I am saying it's convoluted and inelegant.

It also leaves some questions unanswered. For example, how do Small size ancestries work with Giant Instinct? Do they need a special Large size weapon too? Or does a Medium size weapon work for them?

Also, why can a Giant Instinct Barbarian pick up and wield a dead Frost Giant's battleaxe in one hand but they can't do the same thing with a medium size Greataxe? The mechanics are super lame.

There's no distinction between small and medium weapons anymore.

Praise the Sun!

And also a fair weapon dmg dice progression. 1d4, 1d6, 1d8, 1d10, 1d12, 1d12+2.

Smooth.


K1 wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:
HeHateMe wrote:
Zapp wrote:
K1 wrote:
But don't claim the spec is unbalanced.

Not sure who you're talking to so just to be sure:

I'm not saying it's unbalanced.

I am saying it's convoluted and inelegant.

It also leaves some questions unanswered. For example, how do Small size ancestries work with Giant Instinct? Do they need a special Large size weapon too? Or does a Medium size weapon work for them?

Also, why can a Giant Instinct Barbarian pick up and wield a dead Frost Giant's battleaxe in one hand but they can't do the same thing with a medium size Greataxe? The mechanics are super lame.

There's no distinction between small and medium weapons anymore.

Praise the Sun!

And also a fair weapon dmg dice progression. 1d4, 1d6, 1d8, 1d10, 1d12, 1d12+2.

Smooth.

I remember playing 3.5 while my kobold was dealing 1d6 damage with his weapon an ogre was dealing 3d6 and had a bunch more str due to bonuses.

I like that my kobold is now viable.

Also Mellored there's a damage chart by level someone made that shows the fighter does more damage on average... not sure where it is thought.

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