Hello! first time posting on these forums and I find myself with an interesting dilemma. My group is going to be starting the skull and shackles adventure path soon and my DM has made the "mad" decision to have the players do gestalt, (for those that don't know its basically playing a single character with 2 classes side by side).
Our group comp so far is a Ranger/Gunslinger, Ninja/Monk or Swashbuckler, Occultist/Magus, and myself looking to go Cleic/Brawler. Point buy is 45 with background skills variant and 2 traits. Character is a Pitborn Tiefling and I'm looking to go Calistria for their deity for RP reasons.
The conundrum I'm running into is getting the classes to mesh well, any advice, thoughts would be welcome!
Battle Dancer would be a good brawler choice for someone seeking vengeance on the colonial oppressors of sargava, which is near enough to the shackles. Calistria would be a good choice of god for that background as well.
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Here's one effective way to multiclass Cleric and Brawler. Just substitute Cleric levels for Inquisitor Levels. Cleric and Brawler gestalt well together so long as you play a reach cleric, aka Area defender. Here's another similar approach, perhaps a bit more applicable. This lets you play both classes at once: cast a cleric spell for your Standard Action and make melee attacks on the GM's turn via AoOs. This approach makes Cleric and Brawler highly synergistic.
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<woof!> ...Your GM better be quadrupling the monster count, or you guys are going to cake-walk.My group is going to be starting the skull and shackles adventure path soon and my DM has made the "mad" decision to have the players do gestalt, (for those that don't know its basically playing a single character with 2 classes side by side).
Our group comp so far is a Ranger/Gunslinger, Ninja/Monk or Swashbuckler, Occultist/Magus, and myself looking to go Cleic/Brawler. Point buy is 45 with background skills variant and 2 traits.
Character is a Pitborn Tiefling and I'm looking to go Calistria for their deity for RP reasons. The conundrum I'm running into is getting the classes to mesh well, any advice, thoughts would be welcome!
* What Magda Luckbender said.
* To that end (what she said), I'm thinking that brawler isn't the best match for a divine full caster, as flurrying and so forth conflict with on-your-turn spellcasting. What will work nicely is good old Fighter: you'll enjoy tons of feats (and you'll optimize for AoO mechanics and interruptions), proficiencies, and get all the advanced armor and weapon training goodies. So, instead of your typical single-class "reach cleric" with a longspear, you'll be Power Attacking with a bardiche while wearing Gloves of Dueling.* Your party is also already full of bouncy Dex characters; what it appears to lack is a high-strength clobberer.
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17,17,16,14,12,12 array, 45 point-buy, prior to racial modifiers:
STR: 17 (13pts)
DEX: 16 (10pts)
CON: 14 (5pts)
INT: 12 (2pts)
WIS: 17 (13pts)
CHA: 12 (2pts)
You might find the Oni-spawn more to your liking than the Pit-born, as the Oni grants racial bonuses to Str and Wis at the cost of Cha.
Option: drop one 17 to a 16 to pay for increasing Int's 12 to 14 (which you may desire to do to get Combat Expertise out of the way early as a tax feat). Int can be raised with an Ioun stone, however, and starting with two 17s is more efficient in that you'll see real improvement at both 4th and 8th levels when each is bumped. (As 12th, a bump + Manual improves one of your choice.) Also keep a long-term eye on fighter's Versatile Training option.
Traits: Defender of the Society, and anything granting Perception as class. (In a general feat slot later, take Additional Traits for Magical Lineage and anything granting +2 Initiative that is not a combat trait.)
Reach-cleric Combat feat laundry-list: Combat Reflexes, Quick Draw, Improved Initiative, Power Attack, Friendly Switch. Save your general feat slots for widgets that make your cleric side a better spellcaster (e.g., metamagics, etc), although Friendly Switch is a strong contender for smashmouth dungeon-crawls.
Armor: breastplate + armored kilt upgraded to Celestial Plate, light quickdraw shield
Weapons: bardiche, morningstar, adaptive longbow
How to make those two classes 'mesh' depends a lot on what you are really interested in playing. You could build a caster with a combat chasis, which basically means playing just as a regular caster but you have better defenses etc. You could build a front line combatant who has spellcasting, primarily for out-of-combat healing, condition removal and utility magic. Or you could try to find something that synergizes, where the spell casting enchances the melee combat or the melee combat enhances the spell casting.
Any of those options can be effective and any can be fun, but what would be the most fun for you depends entirely on you.
Personally though, with that kind of game and the party composition I wouldn't expect to get a lot of mileage out of a reach cleric. I'm seeing at two other characters that are probably going to want to go in fast and hard. With gestalt and that high point buy they are probably going to be pretty effective at that too. That isn't to say that the reach build is bad, just that I wouldn't expect to see a lot of AoO from it.
Thank you all for the replies! Thinking about what Dave said, I probably should have put down more of what i had in mind for the character to start with. I'm basing this character off one i did in a text only RP (non pathfinder).
They were primarily a front-line fighter that pummeled people to death with their fists, (was initially looking at monk but the requirement to be lawful rules out Calistria and that is too a perfect fit for their deity to pass on)
Right now for the brawler portion I think i'm going to do something that uses dirty trick and I would like to emphasize the fist fighting portion of the character in some way. However i would like the cleric part to have synergy with it also.
Many of the brawler archetypes seem like they could fit, but while i went looking through the cleric ones for an unarmed themed cleric that gave up domains or something, everything i found just seems kinda tacked on or not really applicable.
I am not really worried about it being super efficient since as a couple people pointed out, the degree of power in the game isn't going to set up a ton of challenge if the DM doesn't change anything.
I don't know if that made what I'm looking for any clearer, but all your suggestions have given me things to think about (But I'm certainly open to more)
warpriest instead of cleric is an option if you feel like you don't need the full 9 level caster as well. difficulty would arise between swift action buff spelling and swift action feat gaining though.
warpriest instead of cleric is an option if you feel like you don't need the full 9 level caster as well. difficulty would arise between swift action buff spelling and swift action feat gaining though.
The warpriest was one of the cleric-esq classes i looked at first but the 9th lvl spells and the action conflict aside, it felt like the sacred weapon stuff would be competing with the unarmed damage increases, almost invalidating a whole class feature.
*Edit* although looking it over i could do sacred fist and esoteric magus, would be kinda heavy on the stats but spell combat with heals could be interesting.
warpriest instead of cleric is an option if you feel like you don't need the full 9 level caster as well. difficulty would arise between swift action buff spelling and swift action feat gaining though.The warpriest was one of the cleric-esq classes i looked at first but the 9th lvl spells and the action conflict aside, it felt like the sacred weapon stuff would be competing with the unarmed damage increases, almost invalidating a whole class feature.
*Edit* although looking it over i could do sacred fist and esoteric magus, would be kinda heavy on the stats but spell combat with heals could be interesting.
You're going to run into that swift action gate again between those two.
I do like brawler cleric, I think the archetype i listed coupled with calistria makes a pretty great character with a solid footing in the vengeance aspect of her faith and really, you don't need to archetype much at all. You could be a generic cleric and use that to support your brawler abilities.
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@OP: Would your PC really want to fight on the front lines pummeling with unarmed attacks? Unarmed combat is great as a way to carry a concealed weapon all the time, but it's waaay less effective than carrying a weapon. Unarmed combat is like an always-worn sidearm: great to have if that's all you have. That said, when facing likely battle, why not carry a cumbersome Primary Battle Weapon? Sidearms include unarmed fighting, swords, axes, pistols, etc. Sword (or any sidearm) is to spear as pistol is to rifle.
@OP: Would your PC really want to fight on the front lines pummeling with unarmed attacks? Unarmed combat is great as a way to carry a concealed weapon all the time, but it's waaay less effective than carrying a weapon. Unarmed combat is like an always-worn sidearm: great to have if that's all you have. That said, when facing likely battle, why not carry a cumbersome Primary Battle Weapon? Sidearms include unarmed fighting, swords, axes, pistols, etc. Sword (or any sidearm) is to spear as pistol is to rifle.
As a player I cannot dispute your logic, but the character is very fond of the visceral act of pummeling someone, part of why i went with pitborn for "the urge to smash".
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How about Warpriest/Brawler, or just Warpriest?
When your GM hands you gestalt and 45pt-buy, you wrap a 9th-level spells caster class around a fireplug martial -- because he's basically telling you up front that he's going to be up-ending a dumptruck full of ACME anvils on the party constantly, and little kiddies better clear out'a the pool full of ravenous monsters.
(This party will have dire need of a "professional" mass-cure-spamming cleric as opposed to a bandaid-specialist/UMD wand-burner.)
@OP: Would your PC really want to fight on the front lines pummeling with unarmed attacks? Unarmed combat is great as a way to carry a concealed weapon all the time, but it's waaay less effective than carrying a weapon.As a player I cannot dispute your logic, but the character is very fond of the visceral act of pummeling someone, part of why i went with pitborn for "the urge to smash".
Jabbing someone with 1d6 20/x2 fists (granted: their die gets better at set intervals) is not "smashing"; "smashing" is clonking their skull in with a 2d8+25ish 19-20/x2 enlarged bardiche attack, then enjoying a freebie Fortuitous weapon piggyback follow-up AoO, and then smashing them a third time on your turn -- or you decide to pop off a spell, which as a full caster you will increasingly want to do, such as for an Augmented Summons to bring in nasty beasties to satisfy your visceral pummeling cravings).
Aside from access to those dreamy waveblades and some admittedly desirable class skills, Brawler adds very little to a gestalt package whose other half is cleric, and activating Martial Flexibility will interfere with movement prior to 7th level.
On-your-turn combat emphasis obviates spellcasting, and vice-versa. I.e., you'll walk or chew gum, but not both. The reach-cleric concept lets you walk and chew gum.
I am not really worried about it being super efficient
it felt like the sacred weapon stuff would be competing with the unarmed damage increases, almost invalidating a whole class feature.
If you're "not really worried about it being super efficient", why does the class feature overlap bother you? Although to be honest, the Warpriest's Sacred Weapon Damage is a minor class feature and often utterly useless anyway - it's only there to validate deities with crappy favored weapons.
That said, a Warpriest/Brawler will run into heavy swift action conflict, so you might not benefit from the swift action buffs first round of a surprise combat.
Unarmed combat is great as a way to carry a concealed weapon all the time, but it's waaay less effective than carrying a weapon.
This is not actually true. It may have been in the past, but in modern day Pathfinder, unarmed is a very valid combat style. Indeed, I'd say it's the by far best 'weapon' for a Brawler, because you really want some way to move and full attack to make use of Brawler's Flurry, and the by far best way is Pummeling Charge. In the days of handwraps, you don't even have a higher enchantment cost!
What may have been a mere sidearm in real life is utterly irrelevant for Pathfinder. The concept doesn't even really exist in the game!
Jabbing someone with 1d6 20/x2 fists (granted: their die gets better at set intervals) is not "smashing"; "smashing" is clonking their skull in with a 2d8+25ish 19-20/x2 enlarged bardiche attack, then enjoying a freebie Fortuitous weapon piggyback follow-up AoO, and then smashing them a third time on your turn
No, "smashing" is using your likewise enlarged 2d8+11 fists (+1d6 after the first hit) to make 5 attacks on an enemy who started 125ft away.
I think meshing cleric and brawler is a great idea because you end up with a new class that you can call the "Crawler". Or, if you prefer, the "Clawer".
Right now for the brawler portion I think i'm going to do something that uses dirty trick and I would like to emphasize the fist fighting portion of the character in some way. However i would like the cleric part to have synergy with it also.
Okay. I think I understand more or less how you want to play.
I think your choice of dirty trick is a pretty strong one. That really means your 'role' in the party is more a battlefield controller then a striker. You would debuff/disable an opponent and the others should be able to take them down quickly. Since your range with this is just hand-to-hand I'd be looking for spells (and maybe feats) that would help with mobility. Unfortunately the travel domain isn't available for Calistra (seperatist cleric might be an option.)
For the cleric half I would focus on three jobs, in pretty much this order:
1) Condition removal (hopefully out of combat, but sometimes in combat will be more effective, consumables are your friend here.)
2) Ranged battlefield control. Sometimes you will need to be able to stop or slow down a big bad that you just can't get to right away. I'd also think about some save-or-suck based on Will, since a high CMD and low will save often go hand in hand.
3) Mobility enhancing spells.
I wouldn't worry too much about buffs, perhaps long term ones here and there, but I wouldn't plan on spending actions in combat on them.
For the Brawler half I'd go with your idea of dirty trick, which is a terribly flexible maneuver. I'd enhance this ability to be flexible by keeping in mind that other maneuvers combined with martial flexibility can be situationally effective. You don't need to be a grapple specialist to successfully grapple the puny wizard after all, one or two feats is sufficient.
Basically my goal with this character would be to quickly get up close and personal with the highest threat, disabling them and setting them up for the strikers to pummel.
One note: You mention monk, and with the high point buy it would be pretty strong. The martial artist monk can be of any alignment, would give you WIS to AC which with that high a point buy is a pretty big deal. You would lose some of the flexibility of brawler, and full BaB, but it might be an ok trade.
Its honestly kind of hard not to advocate for a stunning fist focus given the wis being high for cleric...even though i know its kinda suboptimal, ive always wanted to go elbow deep into making stunning fist and its assorted feats the focus with monk of the mantis
"When your GM hands you gestalt and 45pt-buy, you wrap a 9th-level spells caster class around a fireplug martial -- because he's basically telling you up front that he's going to be up-ending a dumptruck full of ACME anvils on the party constantly, and little kiddies better clear out'a the pool full of ravenous monsters.
(This party will have dire need of a "professional" mass-cure-spamming cleric as opposed to a bandaid-specialist/UMD wand-burner.)"
LOL i love the way you phrased that! But we wont be in such dire straits.
Backstory, some time ago my old DM who had been DMing for quite some time built a world were the PCs were gestalt to represent their nature as divine avatars in the world. He knew what he was doing and just as you said it was ACME anvils for most of the game but a ton of fun.
Fast-forward to now, i moved away and started my own group where i am DMing the carrion crown adventure for a group of mostly new players. During downtime like bathroom breaks or waiting for the last player to show up, stories of past games have come up.
Now for carrion crown we had a player drop for school and of the two new people that joined one of them has a very RNG work schedule, so for the days when he cant make it, one of the other players wants to try their hand at DMing. They liked the stories i told of that one game and despite my cautions against, wanted to go with gestalt.
So now im looking to get a good thematic, synergistic, flow to what i'm playing while not stomping on everything and making the game un-fun for the other players.
Its honestly kind of hard not to advocate for a stunning fist focus given the wis being high for cleric...even though i know its kinda suboptimal, ive always wanted to go elbow deep into making stunning fist and its assorted feats the focus with monk of the mantis
Stunning fist is one of my fav abilities, was part of why i wanted to go monk. but between martial artist and brawler im kinda leaning towards brawler for the BAB and utility, but it is very tempting to go monk.
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Jabbing someone with 1d6 20/x2 fists (granted: their die gets better at set intervals) is not "smashing"; "smashing" is clonking their skull in with a 2d8+25ish 19-20/x2 enlarged bardiche attack, then enjoying a freebie Fortuitous weapon piggyback follow-up AoO, and then smashing them a third time on your turnNo, "smashing" is using your likewise enlarged 2d8+11 fists (+1d6 after the first hit) to make 5 attacks on an enemy who started 125ft away.
An enlarged brawler has 2d8 fists at 12th level; you can do what I said as early as 1st with a potion and a polearm (though numeric bonuses and extra attacks won't accrue until ~4th-6th with BAB, stat bump, and bling acquisition), and the damage occurs on the enemy's turn, leaving your own turn wide open.
If you're a 12th-level full cleric with a gestalt martial side, there are better things you can do on your turn than run up to a huge monster and hope to kill it in one round with a pounce/flurry.
IDK what the f%!$ it is with people here and answering "hey i have this framework i want to play" with "try this other thing thats nothing thematically or mechanically like what you want to play"
The part where the OP wrote: "The conundrum I'm running into is getting the classes to mesh well, any advice, thoughts would be welcome!"
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The closest thing (and probably only) thing that will do effectively what she initially wanted (flurry and cast divine spells with as little action-expense as possible) is a Warpriest built for in-close work. --But a single class, even one of the game's better hybrid classes, will be decidedly weak compared to what is possible with gestalt. You could certainly do Warpriest/Cleric to broaden the spell list, but there's so much overlap that you wouldn't be getting anywhere near the oomph out of gestalt that you could be.
Gestalt + 45pt-buy is your GM's green-light to build world-class kaiju-stompers.
Yeah, thoughts on getting the classes to mesh well...
They were primarily a front-line fighter that pummeled people to death with their fists, (was initially looking at monk but the requirement to be lawful rules out Calistria and that is too a perfect fit for their deity to pass on) Right now for the brawler portion I think i'm going to do something that uses dirty trick and I would like to emphasize the fist fighting portion of the character in some way. However i would like the cleric part to have synergy with it also.
Another annoyance you'll face is that Calistria's favored-weapon is the whip, meaning you'll forgo certain bling here and there (class freebies, associated feats, etc) if you use something else. For example, Crusader's Flurry wouldn't gain you anything, whereas, say, Shizuru-worshippers will be generating a blizzard of crits with their 15-20 threat keen katanas.
--Is there a reason behind your choice of Calistria aside from the naughty dominatrix artwork? (Which, admittedly, is a very popular reason, and nothing to be shy about!)
They were primarily a front-line fighter that pummeled people to death with their fists, (was initially looking at monk but the requirement to be lawful rules out Calistria and that is too a perfect fit for their deity to pass on) Right now for the brawler portion I think i'm going to do something that uses dirty trick and I would like to emphasize the fist fighting portion of the character in some way. However i would like the cleric part to have synergy with it also.Another annoyance you'll face is that Calistria's favored-weapon is the whip, meaning you'll forgo certain bling here and there (class freebies, associated feats, etc) if you use something else. For example, Crusader's Flurry wouldn't gain you anything, whereas, say, Shizuru-worshippers will be generating a blizzard of crits with their 15-20 threat keen katanas.
--Is there a reason behind your choice of Calistria aside from the naughty dominatrix artwork? (Which, admittedly, is a very popular reason, and nothing to be shy about!)
Along with the character being an elf born Tiefling and thus being more cultural. It actually has to do more with the vengeance aspect than the sex aspect, (though her portfolio around social freedom is also a very good fit.)
Backstory wise the character lost their love to murder and did something stupid trying to gain vengeance. After the repercussions of that event they found a "better place" in the church of Calistria in Quent.After making a trip to port peril on business the campaign happens.
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Is there a reason behind your choice of Calistria aside from the naughty dominatrix artwork? (Which, admittedly, is a very popular reason, and nothing to be shy about!)Along with the character being an elf born Tiefling and thus being more cultural. It actually has to do more with the vengeance aspect than the sex aspect, (though her portfolio around social freedom is also a very good fit.) Backstory wise the character lost their love to murder and did something stupid trying to gain vengeance. After the repercussions of that event they found a "better place" in the church of Calistria in Quent. After making a trip to port peril on business the campaign happens.
Hmm.... You might find that Besmara is a chaotic-neutral female deity of revenge (who also possesses the same Deception, Trickery, and Thievery domains and subdomains as Calistria) more to your liking. Aside from gaining rapier as a favored weapon, the pirate-related theme and obediences are probably less cringeworthy than Calistria's bedroom antics (which, aside from generating uncomfortableness in certain, easily-triggered contemporary playing circles, always seems to give your GM the green light to explore sneaky ideas of infecting your character with a horrible mythic communicable disease).
And not to mention you'll have a trash-talking parrot sitting on your shoulder.
Is there a reason behind your choice of Calistria aside from the naughty dominatrix artwork? (Which, admittedly, is a very popular reason, and nothing to be shy about!)Along with the character being an elf born Tiefling and thus being more cultural. It actually has to do more with the vengeance aspect than the sex aspect, (though her portfolio around social freedom is also a very good fit.) Backstory wise the character lost their love to murder and did something stupid trying to gain vengeance. After the repercussions of that event they found a "better place" in the church of Calistria in Quent. After making a trip to port peril on business the campaign happens.Hmm.... You might find that Besmara is a chaotic-neutral female deity of revenge (who also possesses the same Deception, Trickery, and Thievery domains and subdomains as Calistria) more to your liking. Aside from gaining rapier as a favored weapon, the pirate-related theme and obediences are probably less cringeworthy than Calistria's bedroom antics (which, aside from generating uncomfortableness in certain, easily-triggered contemporary playing circles, always seems to give your GM the green light to explore sneaky ideas of infecting your character with a horrible mythic communicable disease).
And not to mention you'll have a trash-talking parrot sitting on your shoulder.
With this being a pirate campaign, Besmara was actually the first deity i looked into. While she would be a good fit, Calistria was just thematically better, and since the character uses their fists the deities favored weapon means little.
Honestly my dude Id just .....hollup. Yeah just build your cleric as a combination buffer/summoner or buffer/utility. Then take the Wasp Familiar feat twice and get yourself a giant wasp with the stats of an imp with the Mauler archetype.
I'd take a look at Calistria's Exalted bonuses and see if those appeal to you. Going from cleric to exalted starting at 6th level could be useful provided you aren't relying on channeling for some reason. Changing charm domain's dazing touch to another stun option, and getting charisma to AC later, are both nice benefits. The only drawback would be the daily prostitution, which may not be character or campaign appropriate.
Something I like for brawlers is picking up a versatile(close) starknife and the Desna's shooting star feat to have a charisma focused brawler, but you're into unarmed here so that's off menu.
Depending on your character's overall style, it could be cool to go strong-side-boxer: brawler. The chain wrapped leg, the broken glass covered rope bound fist, it gives the Calistria angle a vengeance/S&M switch hitting vibe. Potentially terrifying, potentially too edgy for a campaign depending on how it's played. If you leave the implication for others to fill in on their own, then I think it would play well.
If I were making the character, I think I'd like the Divine Scourge archetype for the cleric half. Trading channeling and a domain for the sleep hex alone would be more than worth it thematically. That would give you reason not to prestige the cleric half and decrease your need for a charisma score. Spend your class feats on the cleric side and use your bonus feats on the brawler side. Use slumber to engage at a distance or to set up coup de gras.
I'd take a look at Calistria's Exalted bonuses and see if those appeal to you. Going from cleric to exalted starting at 6th level could be useful provided you aren't relying on channeling for some reason. Changing charm domain's dazing touch to another stun option, and getting charisma to AC later, are both nice benefits. The only drawback would be the daily prostitution, which may not be character or campaign appropriate.
Something I like for brawlers is picking up a versatile(close) starknife and the Desna's shooting star feat to have a charisma focused brawler, but you're into unarmed here so that's off menu.
Depending on your character's overall style, it could be cool to go strong-side-boxer: brawler. The chain wrapped leg, the broken glass covered rope bound fist, it gives the Calistria angle a vengeance/S&M switch hitting vibe. Potentially terrifying, potentially too edgy for a campaign depending on how it's played. If you leave the implication for others to fill in on their own, then I think it would play well.
If I were making the character, I think I'd like the Divine Scourge archetype for the cleric half. Trading channeling and a domain for the sleep hex alone would be more than worth it thematically. That would give you reason not to prestige the cleric half and decrease your need for a charisma score. Spend your class feats on the cleric side and use your bonus feats on the brawler side. Use slumber to engage at a distance or to set up coup de gras.
I completely forgot about those prestige classes! i will look into those. Not really worried about the prostitution thing, the group i play with is mature enough to be fine if i decided to embrace that part of Calistira's dogma rather than her vengeance part
It sounds like you want to be more melee-focused in combat and use your casting side for emergency healing and out-of-combat casting?
I'm almost wondering if you might want to consider going Brawler/Oracle(Battle). You're still a 9th lvl caster and the Cleric Spell list, but you can get all martial weapon and heavy armor prof, weapon focus/imp critical/greater weapon focus, and cast any Cure spell as a Swift Action (uses two spell slots), and even perform a Charge as an immediate action with Oracle of Battle.
Your group has a lot of Dex-based chars in it, and a 45pt buy Str/Cha-maxed Brawler Oracle of Battle would definitely smash faces.
If you want to go for cheap debuffing, you can get a +1 Cruel enchant on your weapon, max out your Intimidate (Cha), and get Cornugon Smash. You'll Shaken/Sicken (-4 att, -4 saves, -4 skills, -4 abilchks, -2 dmg) with each hit, and this adds a ton to your survivability for a pretty simple investment. And this would synergize nicely with an Oracle because you'll have really high Cha.
AND, as an added bonus, you can get Free Imp Dirty Trick and Free Greater Dirty Trick from Oracle of Battle too!
Check this out --> Oracle of Battle