Need Help polishing Up my Build - Teifling Brawler


Advice


The Goal of this character is Good Decent Defense and Decent Damage
I However think said Dmg is a little under whelming.

The Build uses The Oni-Spawn Variant of the Teifling (for Flavor mostly)

The Class and Archetype Is (Strong-Side Boxer) (Brawler) (5th level Character)

Oni-spawn Strong Side Boxer:
Class - Brawler (Strong-Side Boxer) 5th level character
VMC Barbaian (Mainly for Rage)

Stats
STR (20 / 22 With Belt) DEX (14) CON(12)
INT(8) WIS(14) CHA(8)

Traits -
1: Threanting Defender
2: ???

Feats

FEATS USED
Level (1) power Attack
Level (2) Armor of the pit
Level (3) VMC Barb
Level (5) Jabbing Style (Really unsure of this one)
Level (5) Combat exerptise

Items Base on wealth at 5th level

(1) Chain "Shirt" +1 (1100 GP)
(2) Buckler (+1) (1015 Gp)
(3) Amulet of Natural Armor (+1) (2000Gp)
(4) Belt Of giant STR (+2) (4000 GP)
(5) Cloak of Resistance (+1) (1000 GP)


I'm not sure you can use a hand as a buckler and use a buckler on that arm at the same time. Different bonus types yes but the same sort of action.

Re more damage since this archetype keeps martial flex., remember feats like dedicated adversary.

Later jabbing style feats need dodge and mobility as prereqs. You aren't going to be able to afford them with VMC.


1. Armor of the Pit does not stack with a Strong-Side Boxer's Shield Hand.

2. On the other hand, Shield-Hand does stack with a buckler as the buckler's bonus is a shield bonus, to the contrary to what @avr says.

3. Jabbing Style is terrible for Brawlers. You need to look at Outslug Style or Pummeling Style - those grant damage while also granting mobility.

4. Are Handwraps allowed in your game? That would be a possibility, to have +1 Handwraps.

5. I think you need to go easier on STR. Yes, it's good, but as @avr says, you have ways to improve your damage with Dedicated Adversary or other handy combat feats. It's better to have some extra DEX and more skills.

6. Power Attack doesn't give you significant amounts of extra damage. It does allow you to qualify for several feats, yes, but honestly I prefer Dirty Fighting.

7. For your traits... do consider something that boosts Will saves to start off.

8. You don't need to buy a +1 Chain Shirt wholesale. You only need to pay the cost of the enchantment.


@ Secret Wizard

About Armor of pit and Shield hand. why Don't they stack?
I thought natural armor bonuses stack? am I wrong ? I'm a bit confuse

ya I knocked STR back to 15 +2 Race +1 from levels

Ok sure up will save

hands Wraps should be allowed i'm of it

Going Snake style and focusing on Trip and AoO


Nosta1300 wrote:

@ Secret Wizard

About Armor of pit and Shield hand. why Don't they stack?
I thought natural armor bonuses stack? am I wrong ? I'm a bit confuse

ya I knocked STR back to 15 +2 Race +1 from levels

Ok sure up will save

hands Wraps should be allowed i'm of it

Going Snake style and focusing on Trip and AoO

Be careful with Style - it costs a swift action to activate, and then it uses immediate actions (which prevent you from using swift actions) to trigger either the defense side or the offensive side.

Because of that, it will conflict with both using martial flexibility as a swift action, or using your +4 to Trip from your chain leg attack, which is also an immediate action.
Those are some of the reasons why I don't like Snake Style.

Natural armor bonuses don't stack. Dodge bonuses do.

Silver Crusade

This looks great for walking around unarmed in a situation where weapons are restricted. Such as ordinary day to day life. That said, what will this PC do if he must go into a known-dangerous situation, such as a battle with bandits? Will he still be unarmed? Would he not pick up a cumbersome Primary Battle Weapon if he knows he's going into a fight? Will he choose to face armed and armored foes without a weapon of his own, even though he's pretty good unarmed? Primary battle weapons include polearms, war bows, large shields, and rifles. Sword (or fist) is to spear as pistol is to rifle.

My point is that yes, brawlers can fight really well unarmed, but also that they fight even better with weapons. For example, if your STR 22 brawler picks up a longspear, which is a simple weapon, and uses reach tactics, his damage output will drastically increase. E.g. He'll generally get two Power Attacks spear thrusts per round, each inflicting 1d8+12 damage. That's 1d8 for the longspear, +9 damage for 22 STR, and +3 damage for Power Attack at 1st level. That's 2x attacks per round for ~17 hp each, or ~33 hp per round. That's not counting rage, and barbarian is proficient with better polearms than longspear.


Dude!

You're going to be an Oni Spawn!

Oni Spawn get Alter Self instead of Darkness. First thing: ask your GM if you can take Fiendish Darkness. Fiendish Darkness lets you use Darkness 3/day instead of 1/day. In this case, you'll be asking if you can use it to use Alter Self 3/day instead of 1/day. If he doesn't, consider being just a regular Tiefling and take Nightmare Fist and Moonlight Stalker feats.

You want to do more damage, then don't be a Brawler! Be a Warpriest!

Use Alter Self to turn into a Sewer Troll that gives you 1 Claw and 2 Bite Attacks. Also, it gives you a +2 Size Bonus to Strength.

You are taking a level in Barbarian to give yourself a +4 Strength. This stacks with your Alter Self Strength Bonus. Take a 2nd level in Barbarian and take Lesser Fiend Totem and get a Gore Attack. Now you have 4 Attacks/round that all get +3 Attack and Damage due to Strength, and you will do a lot more damage.

Oni Tiefling: Alter Self

Sewer Troll's Full Attack is 2 claws that do 1d4 and a Bite that does 1d6, and you don't take any Attack Penalty. You already do more damage than a level 1 Brawler, and you are level 0.

Level 1Barbarian 1: Rage, Feat, BAB+1

+4 Strength gives you +2 Attack and Damage, and that is multiplied by the number of Attacks you get. At this point, you would be getting 3 Attacks/round instead of the 1 Attack/round of the Brawler, and that means +6 Damage instead of +2.

You might consider being a Dreadnaught Barbarian. You only get a +2 ST bump, but you aren't fatigued afterwards.

2B1Warpriest1: Weapon Focus Claws

Now your Claws do 1d6. Bite does 1d6 even without Sacred Weapon, so there's no hurry to take Weapon Focus Bite until you get 5 levels in Warpriest, when SWD becomes 1d8. That being said, you can just worship a deity that has Bite as its favored weapon, and then you get Sacred Weapon for your Bite, too.

Lesser Restoration removes Fatigue, so this is a very good way to counter Rage Fatigue. You still might consider Dreadnaught because Dreadnaughts can cast spells and stuff while Raging.

Your Full Attack now is 3(1d6 +6) as opposed to the Brawler's Flurry with Unarmed Strikes 2(1d6+6). My advice leaves your BAB 1 plus behind, but this is offset by Weapon focus Claws as a Bonus Feat, and more than offset by the fact that my character does not take the 2wf -2 penalty from Brawler's Flurry. You could use a proper weapon, say a 9 Ring Broadsword and do 2(1d8+6), but that still isn't as much damage, and you still take the -2 two weapon fighting penalty.

3B2W1: Lesser Fiend Totem (Gore Attack) BAB+2

Now you get 4 Attacks/round: 3 Claws and Bite for 3(1d6+6) and a Gore for 1d8+6.

4B2W1Ranger1: Freebooter, Freebooter's Bane, BAB+3

Freebooter's Bane lets you, as a Move Action designate a single opponent to be the whole party's Favored Enemy (so-to-speak): everybody gets +1 Attack And Damage. So now your Full Attack is 3(1d6+7) + 1d8+7.

5B2W2R1: Fervor, Feat, BAB+4

Fervor lets you self-buff with Spells as a Swift Action, letting you cast things on yourself such as Weapon Against Evil, which bypasses DR of any Evil creature whose DR is less than 5.

Defensively, this character can wear Heavy Armor.

It's base Saves:
Fort: +8
Reflex: +5
Will: +3

as compared with a level 5 Bralwer's Saves:

Fort: +4
Reflex: +4
Will: +1

Offensively, you get 4 Attacks/round that do 1d6+7, one that does 1d8+7 with no penalties as opposed to Brawler's Flurry that gives you 2 attacks that take a -2 penalty.

Another thing I like to do is intead of the 2 level in Warpriest or that level in Ranger, or when you get to level 6 (if you even do) is to take a level in Witch with the White Hair Archetype, giving you yet another Attack /round that you can also do Sacred Weapon Damage with and also enjoy that +7 Damage from Rage, Alter Self, and Freebooter's Bane.

Magda Luckbender wrote:
This looks great for walking around unarmed in a situation where weapons are restricted.

Ah, so does mine! My character depends on Natural Attacks that appear when Shape Shifting. You might even run away after the fight, change back and listen to people tell that story about how a Sewer Troll came out of no where and tore up the place...


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A half well-done Brawler will easily outdamage the above build.


Are you opposed to doing a Dirty Trickster Brawler? Dirty Trickster Brawlers are amazing at both Defense and Offense, especially dealing with enemy casters. Nothing will shut an enemy caster down faster than Blind/Nauseate (Blind/Nauseate are also really useful against enemy martials too), and the Dirty Trickster Brawler can pile on the debuffs really quick while pushing solid DPR.


Secret Wizard wrote:
A half well-done Brawler will easily outdamage the above build.

Bring it!


Lvl1 Dirty Fighting
Lvl2 BCF: Power Attack
Lvl3 Improved Dirty Trick
Lvl4
Lvl5 Feat: Pick any feat, BCF: Pick any feat
Lvl6
Lvl7 Quick Dirty Trick
Lvl8 BCF: Greater Dirty Trick
Lvl9 Feat: Pick any feat
Lvl10
Lvl11 Feat: Pick any Feat, BCF: Dirty Trick Master

The cool thing about a Dirty Trickster Brawler is that Brawlers enough feats to get every Dirty Trick feat and not be "feat-starved". And of course you can always throw in w/e feats you need from Martial Flexibility. It's pretty versatile.

Once you get Dirty Tricks Master, you can worsen your conditions (Sicken becomes Nauseate, etc.) Basically, the idea here is to use your First Attack each round to do a Dirty Trick with Quick Dirty Trick, and then pummel them into submission with the rest of your attacks. So Blind them in the 1st round, Sicken in the 2nd, and if they don't clear the Sicken Debuff, then Nauseate them in the 3rd round.

Throw Cornugon Smash in there somewhere if you want, and pump up Intimidate. Get a +1 Cruel AoMF and now you're Shaken/Sickening every time you Hit+Intimidate them.

It's pretty brutal how fast you can stack some of the most debilitating effects in the game.


Nosta1300 wrote:

@ Secret Wizard

About Armor of pit and Shield hand. why Don't they stack?
I thought natural armor bonuses stack? am I wrong ? I'm a bit confuse

ya I knocked STR back to 15 +2 Race +1 from levels

Ok sure up will save

hands Wraps should be allowed i'm of it

Going Snake style and focusing on Trip and AoO

You are thinking about Snake Style, and you are thinking about Jabbing Style. Secret Wizard is talking about Outslug and Pummelling Style. So, maybe you are a good candidate for Monk, Master of Many Styles?

My favorite Style Feats for an Unarmed Fighter are Panther and Snake Style. Snake Fang gives you an Attack of Opportunity whenever you are attacked an missed. Panther Claw gives you a Free Action Attack whenever you Provoke an Attack of Opportunity by Moving out of a Threatened Square, up to your Wisdom Mod.

Since Panther Style Feats call upon you to Provoke Attacks of Opportunity by moving out of Threatened Squares, it will behoove you to take Dodge and Mobility.

I'm kind of envisioning starting you off with Panther Style, then taking Circling Mongoose once you get Mobility. Then you can Full Attack while Moving and get your bonus attacks from Panther and Snake Style.

There's lots of dips and complexity here, but I bet you can put something together that's awesome.

By the way, you do know that you can't take Snake Fang before level 9, right? I'm bringing this up because you said you were looking for a build up to level 5.

Tripping could work with this, or some of this: we are talking about a huge number of Feats, here! The cool thing about Tripping is that Both Greater Trip and Vicious Stomp both provoke Attacks of Opportunity, and they stack. You can take Fury's Fall and add your Dex and St Mods to your CMB. Tripping has a Size limit, but I know a way or 2 around that.

Still, we are talking about a huge number of Feats to sift through and sort out. But there is a lot of awesomeness possibility, here.


Ryze Kuja wrote:

Lvl1 Dirty Fighting

Lvl2 BCF: Power Attack
Lvl3 Improved Dirty Trick
Lvl4
Lvl5 Feat: Pick any feat, BCF: Pick any feat
Lvl6
Lvl7 Quick Dirty Trick
Lvl8 BCF: Greater Dirty Trick
Lvl9 Feat: Pick any feat
Lvl10
Lvl11 Feat: Pick any Feat, BCF: Dirty Trick Master

The cool thing about a Dirty Trickster Brawler is that Brawlers enough feats to get every Dirty Trick feat and not be "feat-starved". And of course you can always throw in w/e feats you need from Martial Flexibility. It's pretty versatile.

Once you get Dirty Tricks Master, you can worsen your conditions (Sicken becomes Nauseate, etc.) Basically, the idea here is to use your First Attack each round to do a Dirty Trick with Quick Dirty Trick, and then pummel them into submission with the rest of your attacks. So Blind them in the 1st round, Sicken in the 2nd, and if they don't clear the Sicken Debuff, then Nauseate them in the 3rd round.

Throw Cornugon Smash in there somewhere if you want, and pump up Intimidate. Get a +1 Cruel AoMF and now you're Shaken/Sickening every time you Hit+Intimidate them.

It's pretty brutal how fast you can stack some of the most debilitating effects in the game.

My favorite Dirty Trick De-Buff is Blindness: everybody enjoys a 50% Miss Chance vs. the Blinded Opponent. All terrain becomes Difficult, and they lose their Dex Mod to AC.

But if you are going to Blind people with Dirty Tricks, it seems like you should be doing Sneak Attack Damage. Dirty Trickster sounds awesome, I'm just saying that we should really find a way to add some Sneak Attack Damage since we'd be almost sure to score it with all those Dirty Tricks.


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Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Secret Wizard wrote:
A half well-done Brawler will easily outdamage the above build.
Bring it!

He might have meant the OP's. Although careful with some of your recommendations: Having to keep track of Freebooter's Bane, Rage, and Fervor might be too much bookkeeping. Plus I think there are more straightforward ways to get some of your damage sources, like a Blade Boot instead of claws.

Only comments I have for the OP are that 1) if you're going for VMC Barbarian, you NEED Extra Rage at level 5. Do you need Combat Expertise as a Brawler (don't really build them so genuinely don't know)? Because with a CON of 12, you're getting 4 rounds of rage at level 3 and 6 at level 5...that's pretty suboptimal. And...

2) Magda's recommendation cuts two ways (no pun intended since the referenced weapon was a longspear :D). I'm not sure the Strong Side Boxer is a worthy archetype since you're essentially forced to wield one-handed weapons (or your leg, yes) for essentially a +1 to your AC over what vanilla Brawler would earn you, and also losing maneuver training kinda hurts. But anyway, being able to flurry with a longspear at reach distances and then bring the unarmed hurt if you can't take a step back is a great switch-up strategy.


Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Secret Wizard wrote:
A half well-done Brawler will easily outdamage the above build.
Bring it!

1. You don't get 3 claw attacks. You have a limited number of limbs. You can't pile up "claws" from different sources. You have a bite + 2 claws.

2. Alter Self does not grant any claw attacks to start off. Alter Self only grants: darkvision 60 feet, low-light vision, scent, and swim 30 feet.

3. Not to mention the above build is a mess and wouldn't work for more than 1 or 2 combats per day.

Anyway, a Brawler build done without much thought:

- Human
- S16+2 D15 C14 I10 W10 CH8
- Monk Weapon Skill (cestus), Indomitable Faith
- Snakebite Striker

Feats:
1. Weapon Focus (cestus), Outslug Style
2. Dodge
3. Iron Will
4. +1 DEX
5. Weapon Specialization (cestus), Accomplished Sneak Attacker

Without much work given to it, this build deals:

+8/+8 two cestus attacks that each deals 1d6+8, +2d6 sneak attack, that's 18.5 damage per hit.

More accurate, more reliable... and guess what? In a few levels you are having much more extra attacks and accuracy, and you can do this all day at the expense of 0 resources.

Btw, saves and AC for this are:

Fort +6
Ref +7
Will +4

AC 21 (10+3 DEX+1 Dodge+1 Outslug+1 buckler+1 AC Bonus+4 chain shirt)

This is without magic items ofc.

This build is also much cheaper to scale, as a +1 cestus is much cheaper than the amulet of mighty fists that you require for your above build.

JiaYou wrote:
Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Secret Wizard wrote:
A half well-done Brawler will easily outdamage the above build.
Bring it!
He might have meant the OP's. Although careful with some of your recommendations: Having to keep track of Freebooter's Bane, Rage, and Fervor might be too much bookkeeping. Plus I think there are more straightforward ways to get some of your damage sources, like a Blade Boot instead of claws.

I was most certainly talking about Wilhelm's monster.


Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Ryze Kuja wrote:

Lvl1 Dirty Fighting

Lvl2 BCF: Power Attack
Lvl3 Improved Dirty Trick
Lvl4
Lvl5 Feat: Pick any feat, BCF: Pick any feat
Lvl6
Lvl7 Quick Dirty Trick
Lvl8 BCF: Greater Dirty Trick
Lvl9 Feat: Pick any feat
Lvl10
Lvl11 Feat: Pick any Feat, BCF: Dirty Trick Master

The cool thing about a Dirty Trickster Brawler is that Brawlers enough feats to get every Dirty Trick feat and not be "feat-starved". And of course you can always throw in w/e feats you need from Martial Flexibility. It's pretty versatile.

Once you get Dirty Tricks Master, you can worsen your conditions (Sicken becomes Nauseate, etc.) Basically, the idea here is to use your First Attack each round to do a Dirty Trick with Quick Dirty Trick, and then pummel them into submission with the rest of your attacks. So Blind them in the 1st round, Sicken in the 2nd, and if they don't clear the Sicken Debuff, then Nauseate them in the 3rd round.

Throw Cornugon Smash in there somewhere if you want, and pump up Intimidate. Get a +1 Cruel AoMF and now you're Shaken/Sickening every time you Hit+Intimidate them.

It's pretty brutal how fast you can stack some of the most debilitating effects in the game.

My favorite Dirty Trick De-Buff is Blindness: everybody enjoys a 50% Miss Chance vs. the Blinded Opponent. All terrain becomes Difficult, and they lose their Dex Mod to AC.

But if you are going to Blind people with Dirty Tricks, it seems like you should be doing Sneak Attack Damage. Dirty Trickster sounds awesome, I'm just saying that we should really find a way to add some Sneak Attack Damage since we'd be almost sure to score it with all those Dirty Tricks.

Well, there's Snakebite Striker obviously, but I personally don't like losing Martial Flexibility or the Maneuver Training for a build like this because it takes away from how high your CMB/CMD can be with Dirty Tricks, Trip, etc.

Maybe dip 1 level in UCRogue and pick up Accomplished Sneak Attacker, or, dip 3 levels in UCRogue and go for an Agi build and pick up Agile Maneuvers.

Personally, I'd be a fan of dipping 1 level in UCRogue and get ASnA for 2d6 SnA for a loss of 1BAB, but then your Bonus Combat Feats are coming in 1 level behind...

I dunno, /shrug. How would you do it?

Grand Lodge

Op you may want to consider the exemplar brawler. It is a brawler that gets inspire courage. It also allows you to use outflank, dirty trick, and inspire with teammates.

The class builds to a nice swift, move, standard buffing action economy.

As I read brawler's flurry you can flurry with a temple sword using two hands. So consider that.

With rage, furious, inspire, Dedicated Adversary you will have enough accuracy and damage.


JiaYou wrote:
Although careful with some of your recommendations: Having to keep track of Freebooter's Bane, Rage, and Fervor might be too much bookkeeping.

That is a legit complaint about my builds. They tend to be very complicated and involve lots of bookkeeping.

Secret Wizard wrote:
You don't get 3 claw attacks. You have a limited number of limbs. You can't pile up "claws" from different sources. You have a bite + 2 claws.

I don't remember saying you get 3 Claws. If I said that, I said so in error.

You get 1 Bite, 1 Gore, and 2 Claws. Maybe a Hair Attack in 5 levels, definitely in 6.

Secret Wizard wrote:
Alter Self does not grant any claw attacks to start off.

Yes, it does.

Alter Self wrote:
School transmutation (polymorph)
Polymorph wrote:
you gain any of the natural attacks of the base creature, including proficiency in those attacks
Alter Self wrote:
When you cast this spell, you can assume the form of any Small or Medium creature of the humanoid type.
Troll, Sewer wrote:
Medium humanoid... Melee bite +3 (1d6+1), 2 claws +3 (1d4+1)
Secret Wizard wrote:
Not to mention the above build is a mess and wouldn't work for more than 1 or 2 combats per day.

Well, it's a free country. You don't have to like my ideas if you don't want to. But my ideas aren't actually bad just because you say so. I offered a build that has twice as many attacks as the OP's, each doing more damage, Good AC, and better Saving Throws.

Secret Wizard wrote:

Brawler build done without much thought:

- Human

The OP said Oni Tiefling. I gave a build for Oni Tiefling. That speaks to what you are saying about the build only working 1 or 2 times/day. I made it that way because I was building on his ideas. That problem could be easily fixed by having the OP take Claws through the Maw or Claw Alternate Racial Trait, get a Bite Attack through a Rage Power or through a magic item such as a Ring of Ratfangs or an Animal Mask, both of which are fairly inexpensive.

Secret Wizard wrote:
+8/+8 two cestus attacks

So, +5BAB, +4ST of 18, +1 Weapon Focus, -2 Two Weapon Fighting?

I'm not sure why you are giving your character an 18 Strength. I am just going with the OP's Strength of 22. When I posted the build, I did not actually include the character's base, Full Time Strength. Let's see.

ST: 22 + 4Rage +2Alter Self = 28, so that's a Strength Mod of +9

+4 BAB +9ST + 1 Freebooter's Bane and 2 of the Attacks, the Claws, enjoy Weapon Focus for an extra +1. So my character has an Attack Bonus of +14 for 2 attacks, and +15 for 2 Attacks. So my character has twice as many attacks as yours and all of them have a higher attack bonus.

Secret Wizard wrote:
each deals 1d6+8, +2d6 sneak attack, that's 18.5 damage per hit.

3.5 + 8 + 7 = 18.5 okay.

I don't think you are entitled to put in Sneak Attack Damage Dice for your character's DPR. Sneak Attack Damage is situational. I would not rely on Sneak Attack Damage unless I worked in some feature that locked it in such as Improved Feint and Snake Feint for your Snakebite Striker, Dimensional Slide, Improved Dirty Tricks, or something.

So, what does my character do?

We've established +9 due to Strength and +1 due to Freebooter's Bane.

Gore: 1d8 +10 = 14.5
With Sacred Weapon Damage, the Claws do 1d6. The Bite does 1d6 Normally. 1d6 +10 = 13.5

So my character's average damage/hit is 3X13.5 + 14.5 = 54.5 compared with yours which is 37.

My character's Full Attack has more, more damaging and more accurate attacks than yours does. It is comprehensively better in every measurable way.

Secret Wizard wrote:

Fort +6

Ref +7
Will +4

False. A Brawler's Base Saves are +4/+4/+1, not +6/+7/+4. The saves I posted only consider the character's Base Saves: Fort: +8, Reflex: +5, Will: +3

OP wrote:
DEX (14) CON(12) WIS(14)

So that makes the saves +9/+7/+5 compared with yours which is +6/+7/+4. Something else to bear in mind is that for my character build, I have not even selected any Feats for levels 1, 3, and 5, where you had to spend a Feat slot for Iron Will, and my character's Will Save is still higher than yours.

Secret Wizard wrote:
AC 21 (10+3 DEX+1 Dodge+1 Outslug+1 buckler+1 AC Bonus+4 chain shirt)

What's mine?

10 + 2Dex +6 Breastplate or 20 in Full Plate. Your AC is better, but again, you spent 2 Feats on increasing your AC, and I haven't spent any yet. You are making a false equivalence.

Secret Wizard wrote:
I was most certainly talking about Wilhelm's monster.

And my monster has just devoured your character!

Secret Wizard wrote:
a Brawler build done without much thought

Evidently not. Next time, think more.


Ryze Kuja wrote:
Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Ryze Kuja wrote:

Lvl1 Dirty Fighting

Lvl2 BCF: Power Attack
Lvl3 Improved Dirty Trick
Lvl4
Lvl5 Feat: Pick any feat, BCF: Pick any feat
Lvl6
Lvl7 Quick Dirty Trick
Lvl8 BCF: Greater Dirty Trick
Lvl9 Feat: Pick any feat
Lvl10
Lvl11 Feat: Pick any Feat, BCF: Dirty Trick Master

The cool thing about a Dirty Trickster Brawler is that Brawlers enough feats to get every Dirty Trick feat and not be "feat-starved". And of course you can always throw in w/e feats you need from Martial Flexibility. It's pretty versatile.

Once you get Dirty Tricks Master, you can worsen your conditions (Sicken becomes Nauseate, etc.) Basically, the idea here is to use your First Attack each round to do a Dirty Trick with Quick Dirty Trick, and then pummel them into submission with the rest of your attacks. So Blind them in the 1st round, Sicken in the 2nd, and if they don't clear the Sicken Debuff, then Nauseate them in the 3rd round.

Throw Cornugon Smash in there somewhere if you want, and pump up Intimidate. Get a +1 Cruel AoMF and now you're Shaken/Sickening every time you Hit+Intimidate them.

It's pretty brutal how fast you can stack some of the most debilitating effects in the game.

My favorite Dirty Trick De-Buff is Blindness: everybody enjoys a 50% Miss Chance vs. the Blinded Opponent. All terrain becomes Difficult, and they lose their Dex Mod to AC.

But if you are going to Blind people with Dirty Tricks, it seems like you should be doing Sneak Attack Damage. Dirty Trickster sounds awesome, I'm just saying that we should really find a way to add some Sneak Attack Damage since we'd be almost sure to score it with all those Dirty Tricks.

Well, there's Snakebite Striker obviously, but I personally don't like losing Martial Flexibility or the Maneuver Training for a build like this because it takes away from how high your CMB/CMD can be with Dirty Tricks, Trip, etc.

Maybe dip 1 level in UCRogue and pick up Accomplished Sneak Attacker,...

I'd probably go with more levels in Unchained Rogue or Ninja. I like Martial Flexibility and Maneuver Training, but I can't resist the extra SA Damage.

You can get Improved Dirty Tricks as the Rogue Talent Underhanded Trick, and you can get a Combat Feat as a Rogue Talent. So that's 5 levels in Rogue or Ninja without sacrificing Feat Slots for 3D6 SA Damage +1 for Snakebite Striker Brawler. Then Accomplished Sneak Attacker. You could dip a level in Cavalier or something and take Precise Strike as your Bonus Teamwork Feat. You can dip a level in Greensting Scorpion Magus and get the ability to add +1d6 Sneak Attack Damage by spending a point from your Arcane Pool.

I have a build that does something like this, but it has a radically different feel from the OP's build.


Secret Wizard wrote:

Fort +6

Ref +7
Will +4
I wrote:

False. A Brawler's Base Saves are +4/+4/+1, not +6/+7/+4. The saves I posted only consider the character's Base Saves: Fort: +8, Reflex: +5, Will: +3

OP wrote:
DEX (14) CON(12) WIS(14)
So that makes the saves +9/+7/+5 compared with yours which is +6/+7/+4. Something else to bear in mind is that for my character build, I have not even selected any Feats for levels 1, 3, and 5, where you had to spend a Feat slot for Iron Will, and my character's Will Save is still higher than yours.

Oops. My character's Base Reflex Save is only +2. I must have forgotten that Barbarians have only 1 Good Save instead of 2.

The Base Saves for my character are

+8/+2/+3

With Ability Score Mods, that's

+9/+4/+5,

Which makes Secret Wizard's Reflex Save better, but still leaves my Fort and Will Saves better, still without any Feat investment from me as opposed to his character having to take Iron Will. And of the 3 Saves, Reflex is the least important to have good. (Will being the most important.


...for how many daily rounds?


Secret Wizard wrote:
...for how many daily rounds?

Freebooter's bane: at will.

Barbarian rage: 6 + Con mod rounds, and his build has a free feat for extra rage if desired.
Alter self: 5 minutes, either 1/day or 3/day depending on whether the GM allows a version of fiendish darkness to work on the oni-spawns SLA or not.
No warpriest spell buffs are assumed in those figures. Sacred weapon is constant, no duration.

Scott's builds do work usually, and all the above is derivable from his posts. I've noticed SW that you're unwilling to read others posts at all carefully. Is there a reason for that?


Grandlounge wrote:

Op you may want to consider the exemplar brawler. It is a brawler that gets inspire courage. It also allows you to use outflank, dirty trick, and inspire with teammates.

The class builds to a nice swift, move, standard buffing action economy.

As I read brawler's flurry you can flurry with a temple sword using two hands. So consider that.

With rage, furious, inspire, Dedicated Adversary you will have enough accuracy and damage.

I see. never new that.

But it dose sound cool.

what would be some good Feats for this particular Build?


@ Scott Wilhelm

Your Builds do sound fun. How ever I suppose it takes a while for them to truly come online.

See thing with my group. is most the time the most we get level wise is 2 to 3 cause we don't go by EXP but by Story achievements in our homebrew games.

thats why truth be told I like Builds that come online between level 4 and 6.

I always ask for builds that go to at least level 10 cause there has been a few times when we do and i game time skip or some other reason where we gain 2 to 3 levels at once. but those are rare

Grand Lodge

Nosta1300 wrote:
Grandlounge wrote:

Op you may want to consider the exemplar brawler. It is a brawler that gets inspire courage. It also allows you to use outflank, dirty trick, and inspire with teammates.

The class builds to a nice swift, move, standard buffing action economy.

As I read brawler's flurry you can flurry with a temple sword using two hands. So consider that.

With rage, furious, inspire, Dedicated Adversary you will have enough accuracy and damage.

I see. never new that.

But it dose sound cool.

what would be some good Feats for this particular Build?

This seems in line with what you were trying to accomplish. It will give more static modifiers to attack and damage and add to the versatility of the build. Boosting your team is a great way to improve damage and ' defence.' So, let's see if we can flush out a build.

We have 5 feats.

Level (1) Power Attack (if you are going to two-hand a weapon this is a good option otherwise Move a style feat up) this build has the accuracy to make power attack viable most of the time even on UAS but wait until you have rage and inspire. Keep weapons for DR and hardness.
Level (2) Armor of the pit (significantly better than other AC feat)
Level (3) VMC BARB
Level (5) Dirty Fighting (gives the greatest number of prereqs)
Level (5) Jabbing Style/Dragon style/Pummeling style if you're going UAS

You can consider extra performance, practiced tactician, a teamwork feat share like outflank seems most obvious but Broken Wing Gambit is really good (you can flex into these when you need a melee nova).

*Stick with a single feat chain for styles. If you are ever having trouble hitting as a group that's the time to flank and trip or grapple.

There are items that boost bard levels but you will have to check the availability of them in your campaign. I remember them from PFS.

Grand Lodge

Addendum it has been a while since I have looked at the archetype. It does give up UAS so you will need to spend a feat on that if you want to punch and use styles.

I would recommend two-handing a one-handed weapon from the close weapon group. Axe-Gauntlet, Dwarven Heavy is an option. So is Shield bash and a heavy shield for a more defensive build.

or

Shield and Waveblade/cestus.

The high crit weapons will work will with Outflank. Good defences and you will always be ready with different materials and damage types.


avr wrote:
Secret Wizard wrote:
...for how many daily rounds?

Freebooter's bane: at will.

Barbarian rage: 6 + Con mod rounds, and his build has a free feat for extra rage if desired.
Alter self: 5 minutes, either 1/day or 3/day depending on whether the GM allows a version of fiendish darkness to work on the oni-spawns SLA or not.
No warpriest spell buffs are assumed in those figures. Sacred weapon is constant, no duration.

Scott's builds do work usually, and all the above is derivable from his posts. I've noticed SW that you're unwilling to read others posts at all carefully. Is there a reason for that?

I suppose I could read more posts more carefully, but I do feel I have been giving people due diligence on this thread, and I have shown a strong willingness to consider contrary views and admit when I've been demonstrated to be wrong.

What do you think I've given short shrift to on this thread?

Grand Lodge

Scott I think avr was on your side. He was asking secret wizard, again I think. Though SW makes it tricky to read.

On a different note your multiclassing in this thread quite good for saves. :p


Nosta1300 wrote:


@ Scott Wilhelm

Your Builds do sound fun. How ever I suppose it takes a while for them to truly come online.

See thing with my group. is most the time the most we get level wise is 2 to 3 cause we don't go by EXP but by Story achievements in our homebrew games.

thats why truth be told I like Builds that come online between level 4 and 6.

Take another look. I think you will find even at level 1 my build does respectable damage: 3 Attacks/round with your Strength of 20 at level 1, +2 when you use Oni's Alter Self, and +4 when you use Barbarian Rage.

So as a level 1 Barbarian, you are doing 1d4+8/1d4+8/1d6+8 for a very respectable 32.5 average Damage (assuming they all hit, and your Attack Bonus will also be quite respectable with your +1BAB and +8 ST Mod.

At level 2, you get +2 on your Fort and Will saves, +1 Attack and Damage on your Claws, and now you can use Spells for healing and self-buffing.

At Level 3, you get another Attack: Gore, 1d8+8

At level 4, you get a +2 on your Reflex Save, and a global +1 on all Attacks and all Damage.

At level 5, more spells, and you can self-buff as a Swift Action.

The build I showed you starts strong and gets more and more good stuff every level.

Also, it is in keeping with the concept you are asking for, tainted by fiends and Rage, wanting to lead a life of contemplation and good works, interacting with the world through kindness, but when the violence of the world intrudes, as happens in an adventurer's life, you transform into a screaming fury of destruction, and the enemies of your peace are torn asunder by your hail of many, devastating attacks.

Nosta1300 wrote:
I always ask for builds that go to at least level 10 cause there has been a few times when we do and i game time skip or some other reason where we gain 2 to 3 levels at once. but those are rare

Okay, I will show you the next 5 levels in a bit.


Grandlounge wrote:

Scott I think avr was on your side. He was asking secret wizard, again I think. Though SW makes it tricky to read.

On a different note your multiclassing in this thread quite good for saves. :p

Ah, I see that might be the case. And touche.


To go in a slightly tangential direction: does Brawler's Flurry allow the character to pick up Two-Weapon Feint?

Grand Lodge

I believe so.

https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qdj7?Brawler-Discussion#1


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Sorry Scott, didn't notice that SW was ambiguous. Yes I did mean Secret Wizard.


Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Ryze Kuja wrote:
Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Ryze Kuja wrote:

Lvl1 Dirty Fighting

Lvl2 BCF: Power Attack
Lvl3 Improved Dirty Trick
Lvl4
Lvl5 Feat: Pick any feat, BCF: Pick any feat
Lvl6
Lvl7 Quick Dirty Trick
Lvl8 BCF: Greater Dirty Trick
Lvl9 Feat: Pick any feat
Lvl10
Lvl11 Feat: Pick any Feat, BCF: Dirty Trick Master

The cool thing about a Dirty Trickster Brawler is that Brawlers enough feats to get every Dirty Trick feat and not be "feat-starved". And of course you can always throw in w/e feats you need from Martial Flexibility. It's pretty versatile.

Once you get Dirty Tricks Master, you can worsen your conditions (Sicken becomes Nauseate, etc.) Basically, the idea here is to use your First Attack each round to do a Dirty Trick with Quick Dirty Trick, and then pummel them into submission with the rest of your attacks. So Blind them in the 1st round, Sicken in the 2nd, and if they don't clear the Sicken Debuff, then Nauseate them in the 3rd round.

Throw Cornugon Smash in there somewhere if you want, and pump up Intimidate. Get a +1 Cruel AoMF and now you're Shaken/Sickening every time you Hit+Intimidate them.

It's pretty brutal how fast you can stack some of the most debilitating effects in the game.

My favorite Dirty Trick De-Buff is Blindness: everybody enjoys a 50% Miss Chance vs. the Blinded Opponent. All terrain becomes Difficult, and they lose their Dex Mod to AC.

But if you are going to Blind people with Dirty Tricks, it seems like you should be doing Sneak Attack Damage. Dirty Trickster sounds awesome, I'm just saying that we should really find a way to add some Sneak Attack Damage since we'd be almost sure to score it with all those Dirty Tricks.

Well, there's Snakebite Striker obviously, but I personally don't like losing Martial Flexibility or the Maneuver Training for a build like this because it takes away from how high your CMB/CMD can be with Dirty Tricks, Trip, etc.

Maybe dip 1 level in UCRogue and pick up

...

I think by that point, you should just make a Dirty Trickster UCRogue :P


Ryze Kuja wrote:
I think by that point, you should just make a Dirty Trickster UCRogue :P

The build I have for that mostly an UC Rogue. That's why I didn't post it here: it's a very different flavor from what the OP is going for.

Grand Lodge

Just to help the OP compare numbers for a Brawler build. It seems like you want to play a Brawler. I don't blame you as I really like martial flexibility. I like it even more when you can share a little of it with your friends.

Attack at level 5 with one round of buffing. Standard to Inspire (or share a teamwork feat) and move to get Dedicates adversary.

5 BAB +6STR + 2 Rage +1 inspire + 2 Dedicated adversary

= +16 to attack
= +14 on 2 attacks or power attack
= +12 with power attack and flurry

Damage

1d8+ 12 str + 6 PA + 1 inspire +2 DA

= 19.5 for one
= 25.5 one with PA,
= 39 total flurry
= 56 PA flurry

*actual damage will be dictated by the chance to hit. Expect an AC around 18. With the 3x crit Axe-Gauntlet your real DPR is 42 damage around.

You can see this build is in range of Scott but less optimized in both damage and saves, but a little cleaner for some players to play. Next level you get an extra attack at -5 this is a big step up in damage and you can flex into 2 feats. Say you flex into weapon focus and DA your DPR shoots up to 63. Level 7 inspire become +2. Level 8 you get a second attack at -5.

If you search my comments I have posted on feats for martial flexibility several times.


Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Ryze Kuja wrote:
I think by that point, you should just make a Dirty Trickster UCRogue :P
The build I have for that mostly an UC Rogue. That's why I didn't post it here: it's a very different flavor from what the OP is going for.

I'm curious to see what you've got. I like your builds too even though they're a lot of bookkeeping. I don't mind bookkeeping personally, but I know others might not. Can I see the build you have in mind?


Ryze Kuja wrote:
Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Ryze Kuja wrote:
I think by that point, you should just make a Dirty Trickster UCRogue :P
The build I have for that mostly an UC Rogue. That's why I didn't post it here: it's a very different flavor from what the OP is going for.
I'm curious to see what you've got. I like your builds too even though they're a lot of bookkeeping. I don't mind bookkeeping personally, but I know others might not. Can I see the build you have in mind?

I recently updated it with Canny Tumble and Circling Mongoose. Meet Bonzai!!


Well dont'the worry everyone seems my group plans to try out starfinder in the year @-@

How ever II am great full for all the advice I was given

Hopefully one day I can play a brawler ...

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