Bard x Gunslinger ??


Advice


Is there anyway to make a Gunslinger x Bard Build work.

I've seen a Thread of some one asking about a Sound Striker Bard mixed with mysterious stranger and i was wondering if for a low to mid level game if it could be workable. not Super optimized but not dead weight either

Sovereign Court

Juggler Bard gets you a free hand to reload while dual wielding pistols.
Typically ranged attackers are missing static damage to add to their large numbers of attacks... and Bard can add some static damage.


Firebug wrote:

Juggler Bard gets you a free hand to reload while dual wielding pistols.

Typically ranged attackers are missing static damage to add to their large numbers of attacks... and Bard can add some static damage.

I see.

I see how many levels of each?
and what race?


Spell cartridges is a pretty good option for this class combination. Especially when you're playing at lower levels where losing your swift action isn't so bad.


baggageboy wrote:
Spell cartridges is a pretty good option for this class combination. Especially when you're playing at lower levels where losing your swift action isn't so bad.

Oh I always like that feat.

So would myserious stranger 1 x Juggler Bard 4 be any good?


You'll see juggler vard in a lot of guides because it used to be one of the only ways to reload while two weapon fighting with pistols. Spell cartridges dodges that problem. Still guns are feat intensive. I'd use the archeologist bard because you can trade the rogue talents for extra feats you need. There are several good options though.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
baggageboy wrote:
Spell cartridges is a pretty good option for this class combination.

Spell Cartridges is difficult to fit into a build due to the extra feat it costs. At higher levels the fact that it uses your swift action economy is a bit of a problem, and it takes steep competition from shadowshooting weapons that don't require any feats whatsoever.

Nosta1300 wrote:
So would myserious stranger 1 x Juggler Bard 4 be any good?

Very solid approach. The one caveat is that Mysterious Stranger has no way to fix misfires quickly. Ensure you know the Mending cantrip and learn the Jury Rig spell as options to quickly deal with the inevitable misfires. However, the ability to get Cha-to-damage synergizes very well with the bard and if you want to two-weapon fight with firearms this is one of the few ways that works well out of the box.

In terms of feats you need Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot. You're an obligate ranged attacker, you can't afford to be shut down by enemies closing into melee range. After that you'll want either Arcane Strike and Spell Cartridges or Rapid Reload and Rapid Shot. Long-term you'll want all of Deadly Aim, Rapid Shot, and Two Weapon Fighting to complete the build.


I like the idea of dipping 3 levels in Bard with the Flame Dancer Archetype. Then get yourself an Eversmoking Bottle. The smoke from an Eversmoking Bottle "completely obscures vision." Everyone is Blind. But Flame Dancers' Bardic Performance gives you and your allies the ability to see through the smoke. So now, with your gun, you are making Ranged Touch Attacks vs. Flatfooted AC! What's next? I'd say Sneak Attack Damage...


Dasrak wrote:
baggageboy wrote:
Spell cartridges is a pretty good option for this class combination.

Spell Cartridges is difficult to fit into a build due to the extra feat it costs. At higher levels the fact that it uses your swift action economy is a bit of a problem, and it takes steep competition from shadowshooting weapons that don't require any feats whatsoever.

Nosta1300 wrote:
So would myserious stranger 1 x Juggler Bard 4 be any good?

Very solid approach. The one caveat is that Mysterious Stranger has no way to fix misfires quickly. Ensure you know the Mending cantrip and learn the Jury Rig spell as options to quickly deal with the inevitable misfires. However, the ability to get Cha-to-damage synergizes very well with the bard and if you want to two-weapon fight with firearms this is one of the few ways that works well out of the box.

In terms of feats you need Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot. You're an obligate ranged attacker, you can't afford to be shut down by enemies closing into melee range. After that you'll want either Arcane Strike and Spell Cartridges or Rapid Reload and Rapid Shot. Long-term you'll want all of Deadly Aim, Rapid Shot, and Two Weapon Fighting to complete the build.

These are legitimate concerns, but I don't think it's as bad as you might otherwise think. If you go with spell cartridges you dodge rapid reload which gives you back 1 of the 2 feats. You also don't have to worry about DR with spell cartridges which when you are doing a two weapon fighting build with guns is a a pretty bid advantage Shadowshooting at higher levels will often be doing min damage and still has to deal with DR.

The loss of your swift action is painful, but as a bard quicken (which is usually the "best" swift action) is so expensive that you rarely take it. There are other things where losing your swift put you in a bind, but most can be avoided. One of the best things to do is use a pistol(s) with multiple round clips (dragoon pistol is my personal favorite) and shoot regular ammo if you need to use your swift.


I have a halfling bard/gunslinger that I have been playing for a while. I went with a mysterious stranger to get charisma to damage. Unfortunately Spell Cartridges don't combine with a mysterious stranger's ability to add charisma to damage, as both require a swift action.

I only took one level of mysterious stranger and the only gun related feat I gave her was deadly aim. Eventually she had a pair of +1 double barrel pistols. She didn't use the guns often, but they were a good/flavorful secondary option. Around 6th level, she could do 2d6+20 damage by firing both barrels as a standard action.

She almost never reloaded during battle. If she ever needed to fire twice during battle, (which was rare) she would drop her first gun and draw the second one. The remainder of the time she did standard bardy-things.


Instead of a Bard, how about a Cleric (Evangelist)? You get 9-level spell casting, channel, and the bard's inspiration.

I don't know it would work with a gunslinger.

/cevah


The very first question in this thread should have been: "What do you want from Bard, and what do you want from Gunslinger?"

Without knowing that, we cannot actually help.

People tend to overassign roles to specific classes. Meaning someone saying "I want a Gunslinger" might actually mean "I want to use a firearm". Related to that, people also tend to use class names and ability names as if they were interchangable, meaning someone saying "Bard" might actually mean "Inspire Courage". Or a totally different class feature, you never know.

Going one step further, i.e. a bit away from what the OP think they want, towards what they actually want, would be to ask them "explain what you want to play, without using class names". The result is often something totally different.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Derklord wrote:
People tend to overassign roles to specific classes. Meaning someone saying "I want a Gunslinger" might actually mean "I want to use a firearm".

While that is true in many cases, Gunslinger is the exception where it's perfectly justified. The Gunslinger is the "black sheep" of the class roster in Pathfinder, in that it's a one-dimensional one-tricky pony whose sole niche in the game system is making you good with guns (the closest thing to an exception, the Bolt Ace, lets you use crossbows as if they were guns). If you're doing literally anything else, there is no reason to be a Gunslinger, and if you do want to use guns then it's the obvious dip of choice to make it happen. Moreover, firearms are a naturally feat-intensive fighting style so it pretty much consumes all your feats regardless of whether you're running gunslinger or a different firearm-based archetype.

In this case, the synergy between Mysterious Stranger and Charisma-based casters makes for a natural pairing that's easy to pull off. To some extent it doesn't matter what he wants out of the bard package, because he can still do it just fine and tacking on a level of Mysterious Stranger with feat support will make that build competent with firearms.


Dasrak wrote:
While that is true in many cases, Gunslinger is the exception where it's perfectly justified.

I disagree. The desire to use a firearm does not mandate using Gunslinger. You can make firearms work on various non-Gunslinger builds, Gun Chemist most famously.

In addition, even if a level or levels in Gunslinger is the best course, what I've said is still true, because "I want a Gunslinger" is not enough information to tell how many levels; and a single level is probably not what the player presumed they needed to take.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Derklord wrote:
I disagree. The desire to use a firearm does not mandate using Gunslinger. You can make firearms work on various non-Gunslinger builds, Gun Chemist most famously.

There are a few niche archetypes, like Gun Chemist, which do the job just fine without Gunslinger. They are the exception; almost all firearm using builds dip Gunslinger, especially at low levels. If there was a viable option for a firearm-using bard that did not involve dipping gunslinger, it would have been mentioned.

Derklord wrote:
because "I want a Gunslinger" is not enough information to tell how many levels; and a single level is probably not what the player presumed they needed to take.

And that would have been something that would have likely been discussed if he wasn't a charisma-based caster. 1 level of mysterious stranger kinda moots the point. Normally a gunmage build has the competing interests of getting good damage (usual solution is gun training, but that takes 5 levels) or maximizing caster levels. Mysterious stranger sidesteps that issue entirely by giving you what you need in a 1-level package. You do have issues fixing misfires, but that's much less of an issue.


I'm not sure what you're trying to tell me. Maybe there's been a miscommunication? I deliberately phrased what I said to not only be about the OP, but as a general statement.

Dasrak wrote:
There are a few niche archetypes, like Gun Chemist, which do the job just fine without Gunslinger. They are the exception

The existence of exceptions proves that a blanket statement is wrong. Which is exactly what I disagreed with, and exactly the reason why.

Dasrak wrote:
And that would have been something that would have likely been discussed if he wasn't a charisma-based caster.

Except we don't know if the OP is actually looking for a charisma based chaster, because class names are not enough information. Maybe they're looking for Inspire Courage (which would make Evangelist Cleric+Gunslinger dip a better alternative), maybe for any kind of 6/9 casting (might even make a single class Gun Chemist fit the job), or maybe for someone who delivers magical damage through a firearm (which might end up as a Spellslinger Wizard multiclass, or an Eldritch Archer Magus+Gunslinger dip).

The OP mentioned "Sound Striker Bard mixed with mysterious stranger", but I don't know if that's the exact goal, or merely the source of inspiration. The OP doesn't seem to be fixated on that, in any case - which brings us back to square one, the class names, and the lack of information they communicate.


@ Derklord
Truth be told I was just curious if a Gunslinger / Bard build was viable at all.

Most of fellow players are not min-maxer so i don't need to be to much my self.

well i like to see a well put together character.

cause sadly some of my fellow players have been in just as many or more games a they still don't grasp simple things like what goes in to or how to calculate stuff like saves.

It just I like knowing my character fall with is built with in the rules.

and i thought maybe because mysterious stranger used CHA for some of it stuff it might mesh with a bard say maybe arcane duelist?

it was just a passing thought though

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