Gun Chemist and Spell Cartridges


Rules Questions


Hello all, I am new to pathfinder and I am hoping to get some clarification on the feat spell cartridges and the gun chemist archetype interactions.

1) Spell cartridges prevent the need to reload correct? Can alchemical ordnance not be applied to the force bullets then?

2) Will using spell cartridges allow me to add int to damage via cartridge savant?

3) Can you choose to fire force bullets instead of standard ammunition if the firearm in question is already loaded?


I think it goes yes to all those. There is a problem though, and that's that the gun chemist isn't a spellcaster and can't get or use spell cartridges. Alchemists aren't technically spellcasters.


avr wrote:
I think it goes yes to all those. There is a problem though, and that's that the gun chemist isn't a spellcaster and can't get or use spell cartridges. Alchemists aren't technically spellcasters.

Spell knowledge discovery fixes that

Also, I am confused by the answer for 1 because of the vernacular of the question. Yes, I can use alchemical ordnance or yes I can not?


You are firing a spell cartridges instead of regular ammo according to the spell cartridges feat so no to the first two of the questions would be my read. The feat expressly allows the last.


baggageboy wrote:
You are firing a spell cartridges instead of regular ammo according to the spell cartridges feat so no to the first two of the questions would be my read. The feat expressly allows the last.

Not the answers I WANT to hear on the first two, but thank you for your interpretation nonetheless.


Yeah, spell cartridges is a cool feat, but it's actually fairly underwhelming once you get through the logistics of it. Also of note, technically it doesn't do any damage until you have a caster level of 5 (or maybe only does 1 damage from arcane strike). I wouldn't rule it that way, but the text doesn't set a minimum. On the plus side you don't have to worry about DR or reloading.


baggageboy wrote:
Yeah, spell cartridges is a cool feat, but it's actually fairly underwhelming once you get through the logistics of it. Also of note, technically it doesn't do any damage until you have a caster level of 5 (or maybe only does 1 damage from arcane strike). I wouldn't rule it that way, but the text doesn't set a minimum. On the plus side you don't have to worry about DR or reloading.

I'm playing a gun chemist using a musket and I'm trying to find ways to not completely fall off in damage when iterative attacks start to become relevant.


With the right magic items I don't think it's really a problem. A beneficial bandolier will allow you to reload once as a swift. Another option is the shadowahooting enchantment. Since you are a 3/4 BAB class it'll be a while before you really suffer from missing itereatives. Another option is dipping musket master gunslinger. The best thing to do is start a thread in the advice forum. There are people with much better knowledge that I have.


Why would you "completely fall off in damage when iterative attacks start to become relevant"?

Rapid Reload + Paper Cartridge reduces reloading to a free action, and at 8th level, you can make multiple ordnance shots per round. A +1 reliable musket can't even misfire when using ordnance with the Chemical Stability discovery.


1. Correct, it cannot be applied as you do not load force bullets.

2. No. Spell cartridges are not alchemical cartridges.

3. Yes, you can fire force bullets even when loaded with regular ones. Magic, yo.


Derklord wrote:

Why would you "completely fall off in damage when iterative attacks start to become relevant"?

Rapid Reload + Paper Cartridge reduces reloading to a free action, and at 8th level, you can make multiple ordnance shots per round. A +1 reliable musket can't even misfire when using ordnance with the Chemical Stability discovery.

Reload of a musket is only reduced to a move action with that combination.


baggageboy wrote:
With the right magic items I don't think it's really a problem. A beneficial bandolier will allow you to reload once as a swift. Another option is the shadowahooting enchantment. Since you are a 3/4 BAB class it'll be a while before you really suffer from missing itereatives. Another option is dipping musket master gunslinger. The best thing to do is start a thread in the advice forum. There are people with much better knowledge that I have.

My DM for whatever reason does not allow any multiclassing with archetypes. The beneficial bandolier with a double barrel musket was the solution out side of spell cartridges that I was most interested in, however we have just reached level 4 and our party has received a whopping total of 30 gold each throughout the campaign. He let's me assume I have an infinite amount of free standard ammo available though so there is that at least.

Edit: Shadow shooting would have the same drawbacks that spell cartridges would in regards to gunchemist with the additional chance that they only take minimal damage.


Well, that's a whole different set of problems then.

You can combine spell cartridges and regular ammo. Maybe that's a route?

Shoot your alchemical ammo then swift to activate arcane strike and finish itereatives. Then continue with spell cartridges until you spend a round moving. When you move use the beneficial bandolier to reload you normal ammo.

It's far from ideal, but it might be workable. You're going to have to decide on whether to focus on one really good shot or a lot of lesser shots.

Still probably best to get an advice thread going, just link this one for reference in your OP.


Right now my best idea is going with double musket, the bandolier, then focused shot, then vital and improved vital strike. I'll definitely try posting in advice.


EnigmaticCypher wrote:
Reload of a musket is only reduced to a move action with that combination.

Ah, I'm sorry, I mixed up things. You're right, you'd need three levels in Musket Master for that. *feels embarrassed*

Gun Chemist really doesn't lend towards musket, but rather pistol (or pistols - TWF with a Vestigial Arm to reload works fine). Does it have to be a musket? Normally, a musket user can make do with Shadowshooting or Spell Cartridge, but neither use actual reloading, a prerequisiite to using Alchemical Ornance.


Derklord wrote:
EnigmaticCypher wrote:
Reload of a musket is only reduced to a move action with that combination.

Ah, I'm sorry, I mixed up things. You're right, you'd need three levels in Musket Master for that. *feels embarrassed*

Gun Chemist really doesn't lend towards musket, but rather pistol (or pistols - TWF with a Vestigial Arm to reload works fine). Does it have to be a musket? Normally, a musket user can make do with Shadowshooting or Spell Cartridge, but neither use actual reloading, a prerequisiite to using Alchemical Ornance.

I just prefer the thematic of the musket. I suppose I could switch given that I can't find an acceptable solution.

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