Electric Arc is overpowered


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People confused about the melee option on Produce Flame: it allows flanking bonuses to hit, so it's potentially +2 vs Ray of Frost or other other roll-to-hit cantrip options, improving not only your DPR but your chances of getting that nice crit effect to trigger.


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Xenocrat wrote:
People confused about the melee option on Produce Flame: it allows flanking bonuses to hit, so it's potentially +2 vs Ray of Frost or other other roll-to-hit cantrip options, improving not only your DPR but your chances of getting that nice crit effect to trigger.

People's complaints about it confuse me. Do you want LESS options???

I love that I can melee with it. Reminds me of the old produce flame spell, which it is undoubtedly meant to replace. And as Xenocrat says, there are clear benefits to using the melee spell attack option.

I just wish it had a little more oomph.


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Hm.. if you had some way to increase unarmed reach it could be amusing.

I personally wish Produce Flame was a whip looking effect, giving you 10ft of reach with it, or fling the fire whip for a ranged attack. I forget what, but some castlevania had that basically. It would give it an interesting design space, and would justify the d4 damage


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Zwordsman wrote:

Hm.. if you had some way to increase unarmed reach it could be amusing.

I personally wish Produce Flame was a whip looking effect, giving you 10ft of reach with it, or fling the fire whip for a ranged attack. I forget what, but some castlevania had that basically. It would give it an interesting design space, and would justify the d4 damage

So...something like Dr. Strange's fire whip then? (Warning: major MCU Dr. Strange movie spoilers!)

Sovereign Court

Yeah but old Produce Flame had to be cast only once and then you could use it multiple times. If you could keep the flame around for a couple of melee strikes and thus save on actions, that would make it a very cool (ahem) cantrip.


Produce flame as a 2-action cast which gives a sweet melee strike with a bit of range sounds rad, but it also kinda sounds like a full-on spell rather than a cantrip to me.


Ascalaphus wrote:
Yeah but old Produce Flame had to be cast only once and then you could use it multiple times. If you could keep the flame around for a couple of melee strikes and thus save on actions, that would make it a very cool (ahem) cantrip.

Even if it was a two action spell that allowed one strike when casting and then lasted as an attack until the end of your turn, that would be pretty neat as a cantrip.


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I would much have preferred Create Bonfire.

2 actions
Range 30'
Duration: Sustain
You raise a small, 5' cube of fire that burns creatures passing through it. Any creature that crosses the wall or is occupying the wall's area at the start of its turn takes fire damage equal to your spell casting modifier. If you spend 3 actions casting this spell, you can precisely lower the temperature, allowing you to use it for cooking, lighting a candle, or warming a mug of ail.
Heightened (1+) increase damage by 1d4.

Though fire whip also sounds cool.


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Ravingdork wrote:


So...something like Dr. Strange's fire whip then? (Warning: major MCU Dr. Strange movie spoilers!)

Pretty much yeah. Would be neat concept space anyway.


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Mellored wrote:

I would much have preferred Create Bonfire.

2 actions
Range 30'
Duration: Sustain
You raise a small, 5' cube of fire that burns creatures passing through it. Any creature that crosses the wall or is occupying the wall's area at the start of its turn takes fire damage equal to your spell casting modifier. If you spend 3 actions casting this spell, you can precisely lower the temperature, allowing you to use it for cooking, lighting a candle, or warming a mug of ail.
Heightened (1+) increase damage by 1d4.

Though fire whip also sounds cool.

Warm ale is just wrong


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mrspaghetti wrote:
Warm ale is just wrong

In a world with long, cold guard shifts and without central heating, warm ale is amazing.


OK, I have a very simple solution to Electric Arc (And yes I am in the it's OP camp)

Whilst keeping it at D4, make it scale like the D6 cantrips.
AKA Heightened +2

This puts it at the lowest damage vs 1 target, but still puts out the most damage if you hit 2 targets.

(I remember pretty much all the others being pretty much the same damage, especially if you treat acid splash as always hitting 2 extra targets, P.S I couldn't be bothered doing the acid splash max target maths, because it's a useless stat)

What this means if by choosing EA, you are trying to do the most damage, not the most tactical damage.


Ravingdork wrote:
Zwordsman wrote:

Hm.. if you had some way to increase unarmed reach it could be amusing.

I personally wish Produce Flame was a whip looking effect, giving you 10ft of reach with it, or fling the fire whip for a ranged attack. I forget what, but some castlevania had that basically. It would give it an interesting design space, and would justify the d4 damage

So...something like Dr. Strange's fire whip then? (Warning: major MCU Dr. Strange movie spoilers!)

I mean if the haven;t seen it by now...


Ya, super OP when compared to other cantrips (or even ranged weapons in general at low levels). (1d4+4)x2 is damn good compared to lots of ranged options at that level especially since you can back it up with a full MAP bow shot.

I just made it so the second target gets +4 on its save. The second hit is alot less reliable at that point.

Not sure what Paizo was thinking putting in a cantrip that added ability damage and tagged two things from range while not contributing to MAP.

But, eh, whatever. This is what house rules are for.


Zapp wrote:
Ediwir wrote:


3) Electric Arc nerf.

I do not expect rebalancing, I expect errata. And I expect Electric Arc to be some form of misprint.

Just as a note to people reading this:

If you read our thread on Electric Arc you will find that plenty of people are fine with it as-is, pointing out several mitigating factors (that I won't repeat here since we already have a thread for that). So expecting errata is likely wildly misguided.

(There might be some rebalancing down the line, but even that feels unlikely after reading the thread)

Picking it up from another thread, the most likely explanation I see for the large outlying value is a format copypaste that didn’t get readjusted, hence the expectation of an errata.

After all, it falls in line pretty easily when the damage progression is altered, as showed in previous graphs. Current scaling is directly taken from other cantrips and follows perfect pattern / format (ray of frost / produce flame / chill touch).

Wouldn’t be the first time.


OK, after spending too much time, doing the actual maths, here is my better suggestion... which I am going to run with.

Do not apply the spell casting modifier when you attack two targets.

This keeps it the same dmg as Chill Touch, Produce Flame, Ray of Frost on single targets.

But is not going to give it effectively an automatic crit, with the chance to crit for extra on top of that.

And it increases options, by making you choose.


Parduss wrote:

OK, after spending too much time, doing the actual maths, here is my better suggestion... which I am going to run with.

Do not apply the spell casting modifier when you attack two targets.

This keeps it the same dmg as Chill Touch, Produce Flame, Ray of Frost on single targets.

But is not going to give it effectively an automatic crit, with the chance to crit for extra on top of that.

And it increases options, by making you choose.

This’ll keep the curve, but shift it right. You just moved the break point forward, not actually fixed it (and not by much. It’s back to dominating levels before lv5). Approximating this to a simple y=ax+b, you removed b, but the problem is a.

Try removing the dice, and then add a Heightening +2: add 1d6 damage.
I swear it falls in line. Stronger damage total, lower individual damage.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

What if you just gave it the attack trait and said MAP applied to the targets? (-0 first target, -5 second target, -10 crossbow, for example)


I'm pretty sure if they just put a contingency on who the second target it would be fine. It's the blanket 30 feet that's the problem.

"If you select two targets, the second target must be within 15 feet of the first and still within the spells range."

1d4 + Spellcasting Modifier on two targets that close together isn't really a problem, even if it does nothing to MAP, the problem is you can effectively zap two creatures that are within 30 feet and no where close to each other as written.

Not to mention, it's thematic.


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Ravingdork wrote:
What if you just gave it the attack trait and said MAP applied to the targets? (-0 first target, -5 second target, -10 crossbow, for example)

Naturally, 1 minute after my edit window closes, I remember that it doesn't have attack rolls. ÷/


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Everyone just remember that those with Master proficiency in light sabers can negate the effects of Electric Arc. If you're Legendary you can just absorb it with a hand (provided you are not Surprised).


Ediwir wrote:


This’ll keep the curve, but shift it right. You just moved the break point forward, not actually fixed it (and not by much. It’s back to dominating levels before lv5). Approximating this to a simple y=ax+b, you removed b, but the problem is a.

I don't completely disagree, but I see the problem not as a or b, it's the x2

You suggestion takes it from a standard dmg that just gives free extra damage, it's also a rather mathy solution, and whilst it may bring the x2 damage back in line, it murders the x1 dmg.

I believe the x1 dmg could use a nerf, due to the x2 option being available, but I believe that could be handled better by removing the half dmg on save and crit dmg on crit fail. (This would also feel thematic as the arcs are less precise)

Now the simplicity of just removing a +4-6 mod to attacking a second target feels bigger to a player than what the numbers truly are, and it gives them a sense of choice.

Sovereign Court

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Ediwir wrote:
Picking it up from another thread, the most likely explanation I see for the large outlying value is a format copypaste that didn’t get readjusted, hence the expectation of an errata.

It's pretty similar to the way it was in the playtest. I don't think it's likely that the two targets or the damage are a mistake. They've had far too long to correct it if it was. This cantrip already got attention during the playtest for being good, so it's not like the designers didn't know.


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Parduss wrote:
Ediwir wrote:


This’ll keep the curve, but shift it right. You just moved the break point forward, not actually fixed it (and not by much. It’s back to dominating levels before lv5). Approximating this to a simple y=ax+b, you removed b, but the problem is a.

I don't completely disagree, but I see the problem not as a or b, it's the x2

The a in y=ax+b is the *2.


Ravingdork wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
What if you just gave it the attack trait and said MAP applied to the targets? (-0 first target, -5 second target, -10 crossbow, for example)
Naturally, 1 minute after my edit window closes, I remember that it doesn't have attack rolls. ÷/

Not a fundamantal problem, if you're already editing the spell, IMHO. Firstly, if you just give it the Attack trait, it impacts other attacks. Then if you want it symmetrically impacted by other attacks, you give it clause penalizing DC by MAP, which would phrased per-target so 2nd target is worse than 1st (and would further penalize MAP more than just Attack tag on entire spell does).


RicoTheBold wrote:


The a in y=ax+b is the *2.

I assumed, X is the x2. and A is scaling of the dice.

And if you read his solution, you can understand why I viewed it as such.

How A & B are well A & B and X is the one that stands out, his solution was talking about dealing with A and what did he deal with? The scaling, not the x2.


That's because the actual equation is more like Y= A*B*X +C. A= x2,B= value of scale, X= lv scaling, C= Base damage.


Oh agreed, but I wasn't going to nitpick because he got his message across, really I was just using the A and B for shorthand, and I didn't think I would need type it out the longest method possible for some people.


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I strongly recommend not reducing the effectiveness of electric arc. Yes it can do the most damage of any cantrip, but to do so requires 2 targets and placing yourself in position to be counter attacked by two creatures who can probably move once and attack twice. It also only does damage, making it extra useless as an attack against solo bosses, because even on the rare crit, the spell is only as useful as it is normally.

Does the hatchet need to be nerfed because it is situationally more powerful than other 1 handed melee weapons if you are a fighter with lunge and multiple enemies in reach because of the sweep and agile traits?

Electric arc, as is, is often a great cantrip, but is not so great that casters won’t want to have a second or third attack cantrip.

Weakening it is only going to Make it not worth taking. Especially because moving to be able to use it places the caster in harms way.


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I agree with Unicore.


Are there any weaknesses to Electricity? Because I know of a few immunities, in blue dragons for instance, and a few like flesh golem empowered by electricity damage. What I'm getting at is that electric arc also can't be used to target weakness if little to nothing has electric weakness, whereas produce flame and ray of frost can target weaknesses much more regularly (but are also maybe resisted more regularly?). So that's one spot where the others could be more useful.


Seems that skeletons also have resistance to Electric damage.

However, nice call there.

Our casters started out with familiars to increase their cantrips, and they are happy with it, even if the dmg is not that high if compared to melee.


BellyBeard wrote:
Are there any weaknesses to Electricity?

I quick look shows only resistances, immunity and Special: Ochre Jelly is immune and the only elemental damage that splits it, Flesh Golem is immune and gets a free reaction and Shambler gets temp hp and extra action.

Offhand only the Iron Golem gets a negative from electricity: slowed. So yeah, electric arc is good for steady damage vs multiple targets but it's not triggering anything good most times: I'm using ray of frost a lot along with the arc: 30' range a lot of times isn't even a single move action and if you aren't thrilled by the thought of melee, that 120' range is better than a bit more damage [and the slowing helps keep it that way].


Unicore wrote:
I strongly recommend not reducing the effectiveness of electric arc. Yes it can do the most damage of any cantrip, but to do so requires 2 targets and placing yourself in position to be counter attacked by two creatures who can probably move once and attack twice. It also only does damage, making it extra useless as an attack against solo bosses, because even on the rare crit, the spell is only as useful as it is normally.

Exactly my reasoning for nerf batting the two target option the most (removing the spell mod), and removing the half dmg just pulls it back into line with everything else.

The can't crit option is IMO is a minor nerf (as you said, the rare crit) and is rather thematic, *conjures images of palpatine using force lightening* but it feels like a good balance change because you can essentially "crit at will" in the average fight by hitting two targets.


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Parduss wrote:
Exactly my reasoning for nerf batting the two target option the most (removing the spell mod), and removing the half dmg just pulls it back into line with everything else.

Except that by bringing its damage "back into line with everything else" it becomes a never-take option because it has literally no other benefit.

Produce Flame has elemental weakness (and can crit for persistent damage)
Acid Splash has elemental weakness (and splash damage)
Chill Touch has elemental weakness (and enfeebles)

Electric arc has....nothing


Quote:
Yes it can do the most damage of any cantrip, but to do so requires 2 targets and placing yourself in position to be counter attacked by two creatures who can probably move once and attack twice. It also only does damage, making it extra useless as an attack against solo bosses, because even on the rare crit, the spell is only as useful as it is normally.

Since it has same range as most other cantrips (better than Chill Touch, Ray of Frost being only longer range Cantrip), I don't understand how that same 30' range is a 'trade-off' against 'most damage'?

Also not sure of 'only damage no special crit effect VS bosses' argument, considering they are least likely to CritFail so other cantrips can hardly be "relied on" for that effect VS bosses.

As I see it, there is plenty of scope for "weakening" it which doesn't directly weaken it's baseline usage: Attack trait, does nothing directly but reduces combo power. (Attack trait should also make Save DC suffer MAP) 2nd attack could then suffer penalty to DC, which doesn't impact 1st attack power at all, only reducing 'peak' damage VS 2 targets.


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Quandary wrote:


As I see it, there is plenty of scope for "weakening" it which doesn't directly weaken it's baseline usage: Attack trait, does nothing directly but reduces combo power. (Attack trait should also make Save DC suffer MAP) 2nd attack could then suffer penalty to DC, which doesn't impact 1st attack power at all, only reducing 'peak' damage VS 2 targets.

I can see where you are going here, but K.I.S.S, because creating a unique mechanic for it is kind of an ugly solution.


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Quandary wrote:
Quote:
Yes it can do the most damage of any cantrip, but to do so requires 2 targets and placing yourself in position to be counter attacked by two creatures who can probably move once and attack twice. It also only does damage, making it extra useless as an attack against solo bosses, because even on the rare crit, the spell is only as useful as it is normally.

Since it has same range as most other cantrips (better than Chill Touch, Ray of Frost being only longer range Cantrip), I don't understand how that same 30' range is a 'trade-off' against 'most damage'?

Also not sure of 'only damage no special crit effect VS bosses' argument, considering they are least likely to CritFail so other cantrips can hardly be "relied on" for that effect VS bosses.

As I see it, there is plenty of scope for "weakening" it which doesn't directly weaken it's baseline usage: Attack trait, does nothing directly but reduces combo power. (Attack trait should also make Save DC suffer MAP) 2nd attack could then suffer penalty to DC, which doesn't impact 1st attack power at all, only reducing 'peak' damage VS 2 targets.

It sets the caster up to take more damage because you have moved to within 30ft of 2 targets instead of one. With another cantrip, you don't deliberately move yourself to where two or more enemies can easily.

Daze also has a range of 60ft, and a useful critical effect as well as being a useful damage type.

The point of Electric arc being a waste against bosses is that it does less damage than other cantrips against 1 target AND it does nothing interesting on a crit, so even if you roll the 20 or they roll the 1 on the save nothing interesting or useful happens beyond what the spell does normally against 2 targets.

I believe it is a mistake to attempt to compare cantrips purely by damage output because PF2 is a far more tactically complex game then "always pick the attack which does the most damage.


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Unicore wrote:
Quandary wrote:
Quote:
Yes it can do the most damage of any cantrip, but to do so requires 2 targets and placing yourself in position to be counter attacked by two creatures who can probably move once and attack twice. It also only does damage, making it extra useless as an attack against solo bosses, because even on the rare crit, the spell is only as useful as it is normally.

Since it has same range as most other cantrips (better than Chill Touch, Ray of Frost being only longer range Cantrip), I don't understand how that same 30' range is a 'trade-off' against 'most damage'?

Also not sure of 'only damage no special crit effect VS bosses' argument, considering they are least likely to CritFail so other cantrips can hardly be "relied on" for that effect VS bosses.

As I see it, there is plenty of scope for "weakening" it which doesn't directly weaken it's baseline usage: Attack trait, does nothing directly but reduces combo power. (Attack trait should also make Save DC suffer MAP) 2nd attack could then suffer penalty to DC, which doesn't impact 1st attack power at all, only reducing 'peak' damage VS 2 targets.

It sets the caster up to take more damage because you have moved to within 30ft of 2 targets instead of one. With another cantrip, you don't deliberately move yourself to where two or more enemies can easily.

Daze also has a range of 60ft, and a useful critical effect as well as being a useful damage type.

The point of Electric arc being a waste against bosses is that it does less damage than other cantrips against 1 target AND it does nothing interesting on a crit, so even if you roll the 20 or they roll the 1 on the save nothing interesting or useful happens beyond what the spell does normally against 2 targets.

I believe it is a mistake to attempt to compare cantrips purely by damage output because PF2 is a far more tactically complex game then "always pick the attack which does the most damage.

Electric damage is also, I believe, never a monster weakness (so far), so, it's the mook clearing cantrip, which is fine.


Unicore wrote:

I believe it is a mistake to attempt to compare cantrips purely by damage output because PF2 is a far more tactically complex game then "always pick the attack which does the most damage.

If the tactical side of these cantrips was more reliable, you'd get a lot less argument from me, but then that would nerf the utility cantrips.

Now if you think the on crit effects are better options, that make the game more enjoyable, why have the pure damage ones as newbie traps?


For the record, I am not saying other cantrips are better. I am saying there are interesting tactical reasons to pick most of the most of the cantrips and that is a good thing.


Unicore wrote:
For the record, I am not saying other cantrips are better. I am saying there are interesting tactical reasons to pick most of the most of the cantrips and that is a good thing.

Fair point.

BTW, I would just like to point out the half damage on save that Daze gets, pretty much brings it into line with the other cantrips (If you assume a miss every other round, which basically raises the damage by 50%)

Personally I just want to make the choices more even, I want "is this the best weapon for my character" to be more character/story driven, like a draconic sorcerer, who is a bit of a gadabout, this is partially a result of their copper dragon heritage, and of course their magic tends to manifest by more often than not using acid damage.


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Parduss wrote:
Unicore wrote:
For the record, I am not saying other cantrips are better. I am saying there are interesting tactical reasons to pick most of the most of the cantrips and that is a good thing.

Fair point.

BTW, I would just like to point out the half damage on save that Daze gets, pretty much brings it into line with the other cantrips (If you assume a miss every other round, which basically raises the damage by 50%)

Personally I just want to make the choices more even, I want "is this the best weapon for my character" to be more character/story driven, like a draconic sorcerer, who is a bit of a gadabout, this is partially a result of their copper dragon heritage, and of course their magic tends to manifest by more often than not using acid damage.

And that is why I am pointing out that being even is not just a question of potential damage. As it stands, if you limit yourself to any one attack cantrip as your character's shtick, there are going to be a lot of situations in which your character is going to be underperforming, even with electric arc. Spontaneous casters need more than one attack cantrip. Prepared casters are usually able to have a couple on stand by so they can have the right one for the situation.


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Unicore, your argument feels very similar to the "balance doesn't matter, because it's PvE and the GM can just change the enemies to balance things anyway" that you hear a lot.

Which is basically just an "all attempts to homebrew solutions to wholes in the system are dumb" kind of argument.

I might be wrong, but that's the vibe I am getting.


Unicore wrote:
It sets the caster up to take more damage because you have moved to within 30ft of 2 targets instead of one. With another cantrip, you don't deliberately move yourself to where two or more enemies can easily.

OK, gotcha... Of course, enemies could have already been within 30' range, moving to get one target within range itself could have put other within range (considering real positioning constraints), and one or both of these enemies might have better plans then giving the Cantrip caster their attention. Sure, some situations could yield unique penalty for Electric Arc here, but I don't think consistently enough to suffice as total balancing factor.

BTW, I do agree with your general point on benefit of having other cantrips available, just cherry picking VS resistance/vulnerability and Saves is very valuable. So much that casters in multicaster parties should consider NOT overlapping in "staple" out of combat Cantrips as long as they are covered by other caster, in order for both to have more attack cantrips available. Which could translate to one caster having Detect Magic and the other Read Aura, for example. Of course, in single caster parties there is pressure for those out of combat Cantrips, so just one attack cantrip may be attractive, in which case they may prefer most broadly powerful one. Although other cantrips also have non-math factors in favor, like Acid to destroy objects. Ray of Frost might have utility like freezing wet surface as "trap", or TK Projectile partially standing in for Mage Hand. But that doesn't invalidate appraising Electric Arc for mechanical balance and bringing it more in line if appropriate.

Parduss wrote:
Quandary wrote:


As I see it, there is plenty of scope for "weakening" it which doesn't directly weaken it's baseline usage: [Attack trait, Save DC, etc]
I can see where you are going here, but K.I.S.S, because creating a unique mechanic for it is kind of an ugly solution.

Just to be clear, I wasn't proposing this as unique mechanic, just applying Attack tag is obviously not unique. IMHO Attack tag should GENERALLY have function that allows relevance to Save DC (of actions with Attack tag, not all Save DC) because I can't see any reason why not, and it's absurd for Attack spells/Save-triggering actions to trigger MAP on subsequent attack rolls, but not vice versa (which just means the optimal sequencing to avoid MAP is chosen). Whether or not 2nd Electric Arc suffered from 1st's MAP would be only unique part (and even without that, the rest is valid rebalance IMHO, both for this cantrip and as general mechanic). Although ideally that would be Errata so all rules take it into account, rather than written around it's assumed absense (which is problem with homebrewing around core mechanics)

EDIT: For that reason, assuming Attack/MAP isn't broadlyh amended and integrated into system assumptions, it may be better to just apply "pseudo MAP" -5 etc to 2nd attack. Simple, doesn't depend on outside mechanics, but similar if narrower effect. Independently of Electric Arc, I do feel there is value in game system allowing for MAP to decrease "Attack" Save DCs, but if system isn't Errata'd for that, Electric Arc itself could still have similar tweak.


Quandary wrote:

But that doesn't invalidate appraising Electric Arc for mechanical balance and bringing it more in line if appropriate.

Whether or not 2nd Electric Arc suffered from 1st's MAP would be only unique part (and even without that, the rest is valid rebalance IMHO, both for this cantrip and as general mechanic). Although ideally that would be Errata so all rules take it into account, rather than building around it's assumed absense (which is problem with homebrewing around core mechanics)

Totally agreed with that first point.

I see your point, but it's messy "which is your first target?", and if the 2nd target didn't cop the MAP from the 1st, it's irrelevant, because they're just going to cast shield, move or use reach spell.


IMHO it's not irrelevant, it directly impacts how the spell combos with other Attacks. If you plan on doing those you may then prefer a non-Attack spell as combo. Meaning you reduced your damage output for the turn. Note, as a Cantrip, this is prime Multiclass fodder (and consider how Haste affects action Combos). Combos is the entire point of some actions tagged with (and affected by) "Attack" and others not, abilities aren't just balanced in isolation. Just nudging Electric Arc into a different usage pattern is legit rebalancing IMHO, and exactly what I meant earlier by "[not] directly weaken it's baseline usage... but reduce combo power".


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Quandary wrote:
Note, as a Cantrip, this is prime Multiclass fodder (and consider how Haste affects action Combos).

Of course, as a cantrip, the damage keeps up with your character level because they auto-heighten even past your multiclass spell slot levels, but the save DCs will lag behind a full caster due to the late proficiency gains, and possibly the casting ability score (assuming it's not the same as your primary class ability).

That's true for other cantrips, too, though (with spell attack instead of DCs) so it's not an argument against electric arc, just something to be aware of when considering multiclassing or picking up up innate cantrips from ancestry or something.


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I don't believe everything has to be perfectly balanced - all cantrips don't have to be equal. As such, I am perfectly fine with electric arc doing more damage than other cantrips.

Seems silly to advocate nerfing casters more.


Parduss wrote:

Unicore, your argument feels very similar to the "balance doesn't matter, because it's PvE and the GM can just change the enemies to balance things anyway" that you hear a lot.

Which is basically just an "all attempts to homebrew solutions to wholes in the system are dumb" kind of argument.

I might be wrong, but that's the vibe I am getting.

It's just the reality of the game: different enemies have different good saves and/or AC and different vulnerabilities, immunities, resistances, ect. That and you have to factor in the secondary abilities instead of electric arc's second target: daze stuns, chilled touch is enfeebled 1/flee, produce fire is melee/ranged and persistent fire damage, ray of cold is slow -10 and it's range is 120', acid splash has 1 splash and persistent acid damage. If you're only ever using a single attack cantrip, it's a "homebrew solution" if you never find yourself where one of the other cantrips wouldn't be a better option for what you're fighting. At minimum I like to have electric arc and ray of frost and try to pick up a third when I can.

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