Knifemaster PFS Build advice


Advice


Hey all looking for some build advice. This is what I got so far, I based it on the Noble Assassin build for Pathfinder kingmaker on Neoseeker, but obviously had to be tweaked for PFS (No Vivisectionist, One combat trick, limited bonus feat lists, paper plays different, etc)

Race: Kitsune

Alignment: Lawful-Good

Traits: Adopted (Half-elf: Elven Reflexes), Hidden Hand

Skills: Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Disable Device, Acrobatics, Escape Artist, Stealth, Perception, Use Magic Device, Knowledge (local) 1, Sleight of Hand 1, Knowledge (Dungeoneering) 1

Gear (lvl 1): Leather armor, 2 x Daggers, Light Crossbow, Crossbow Bolts, Free Monk Outfit, Rogue's Kit (carried by dog in a small pack saddle)

Pack Animal: Guard Dog (Combat Trained per Ultimate Equipment)

Str 7 Dex 18 Con 14 Int 14 Wis 7 Cha 16

Increase Dex to 22 at Lvl 16 and Wis to 8 at Lvl 20

Rogue Unchained (Knife Master) 16 Monk Unchained (Scaled Fist) 2 Paladin (Divine Hunter) 2

Level 1: Rogue - Feat: Two-Weapon Fighting

Level 2: Rogue - Talent: Minor Magic (Acid Splash or similar)

Level 3: Rogue - Feat: Double Slice, Finesse Training: Kukri

Level 4: Paladin

Level 5: Monk - Feat: Accomplished Sneak Attacker, Bonus Feat: Dodge

Level 6: Paladin

Level 7: Rogue - Feat: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Talent: Weapon Training (Kukri)

Level 8: Rogue - Skill Unlock: Disable Device

Level 9: Rogue - Feat: Dazzling Display, Talent: Combat Trick (Shatter Defenses)

Level 10: Rogue

Level 11: Rogue - Feat: Improved Critical (Kukri), Major Magic (Shield)

Level 12: Rogue

Level 13: Rogue - Feat: Combat Reflexes, Advanced Talent: Opportunist, Skill Unlock: Stealth

Level 14: Rogue - Finesse Training: Dagger

Level 15: Rogue - Feat: Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, Advanced Talent: Crippling Strike

Level 16: Rogue

Level 17: Rogue - Feat: Deceitful, Advanced Talent: Double Debilitation

Level 18: Rogue - Skill Unlock: Bluff

Level 19: Rogue - Feat: Blind Fight, Advanced Talent: Dispelling Attack

Level 20: Monk - Bonus Feat: Throw Anything

Sources Used: Core, Advanced Player's Guide, Ultimate Combat, Pathfinder Unchained, Ultimate Equipment, Ultimate Campaign, Dirty Tactics Toolbox, Legacy of Dragons, Advanced Race Guide

So first question, is this a legal build?

Is there a better level 20 option than monk? (not that I'll ever get there in PFS play, but assuming I do, I want that class to be a full BAB class)

Build I based this on had 4 levels of Vivisectionist starting at level 14, which was super handy given the dexterity mutagen and ability to cast shield without expending talents or relying on UMD to do so, while otherwise acting like rogue, but obviously it is illegal in PFS. So question is should I dip into a pure alchemist anyway (and lose out on an advanced talent or two, and possibly some sneak dice), is there another class or archetype that is a better option for obtaining mutagens, or should I stick to my rogue levels?

Anything clearly broken I should fix?

Any path of feats or class dips that would work better?

Any other skills I should point dip? any of the current max skills I should nuke to a point dip or some other rank?


BobertTheThird wrote:
So first question, is this a legal build?

Probably? Search the Archives for your feats, traits, etc. If they're legal for play, they'll have the white Society icon.

====

I'm actually not sure why you're dipping UnMonk. None of the feats are needed for your build, so is there another reason? Paladin I can justify for that big bonus to saves.

I'd also reconsider taking Double Slice. Double Slice will only be around 2-3 extra damage for the majority of your career, and only for less than half of your attacks.

====

BobertTheThird wrote:
Any path of feats or class dips that would work better?

Definitely go for the 4th level of UnRogue before dipping. You don't want to delay Uncanny Dodge and Debilitating Injury by three levels.

Dark Archive

Id do knifemaster paired with scout


Wonderstell wrote:


I'm actually not sure why you're dipping UnMonk.

Scaled first Monk provides cha bonus to AC. Which as a low strength rogue I need.

Wonderstell wrote:


I'd also reconsider taking Double Slice

Already done. Turns out official FAQ rules any change to a strength multiplier does not benefit a feature that changes strength damage to Dex damage (even though paizo did it themselves with a character in an adventure path) problem is replacing it. Not many useful feats I qualify for at level 3 and all the feats I get at higher levels also can't be taken at level 3.


Name Violation wrote:
Id do knifemaster paired with scout

I've been thinking about that, the loss of uncanny dodge is all that is holding me back.


BobertTheThird wrote:
Wonderstell wrote:


I'm actually not sure why you're dipping UnMonk.
Scaled first Monk provides cha bonus to AC. Which as a low strength rogue I need.

Have you considered not being anemic?

Lower your Intelligence to 12, use the three points to raise your Strength from 9(-2) to 12(-2). Then instead of dipping Scaled Fist go straight into Enlightened Paladin instead. Two levels should be enough.


1. You have no need for that much INT.

2. You need much more WIS if you want to survive.

3. PFS only gets up to 12th level.

4. You are over-investing on damage. Rogues are fine on damage with TWF and Weapon Focus. Anything else has very, very little impact on actual numbers. Rogues famously get nothing out of crits.

5. Those levels spent on dips on classes are better spent on continuing down the path of Rogueness and moving towards Advanced Talents, Improved Evasion and so on.

6. Knife Master is a good archetype – it's a fair trade. That being said... for PFS? I like to have Trapfinding. It comes into play EVERY session, literally.

My thoughts on building Rogues are more detailed here.


Let's go through it step-by-step (and at the bottom of this very long-ass post, I'll submit an alternate build for your consideration).

BobertTheThird wrote:

I based it on the Noble Assassin build for Pathfinder kingmaker on Neoseeker...

Race: Kitsune
The Noble Assassin build is a halfling, and they are racially synergistic to survival in those sorts of avocations, e.g., +4 to Stealth compared to a normal-sized race, +2 racial bonus to Perception, +1 bonus to all saves (+2 w/Fate's Favored trait), +1 size bonus to both attack and AC, a decade's worth of in-game widget support as one of the "old school" original Tolkienesque fantasy races, etc. --You'll be giving up a not-inconsiderable amount of durability to be a kitsune in such a role. (Just because something is cool on Naruto doesn't mean in works great in Pathfinder.)
Quote:
Traits: Adopted (Half-elf: Elven Reflexes), Hidden Hand

Do you own Ultimate Campaign (in which the Adopted trait appears), and Pathfinder Unchained (for unchained classes)? --This is a necessary question in PFS, as you're not permitted to take bling from sources outside of the CRB unless you either own them, or they're granted on a cert. If you're just pounding through a stack of old mods at a friend's house, and he doesn't care, it won't be a problem. But if you take the character "on the road", it's possible that somebody somewhere might inquire about your sources.

Hidden Hand is not likely to see much use (i.e., PFS adventurers only on rare occasions need rely on concealed light-weapons, and are even less likely to have an adjacent opponent during the surprise round such that they could actually use it, assuming they also had Quick Draw, which I note this build does not have).

Quote:

Alignment: Lawful-Good

Str 7 Dex 18 Con 14 Int 14 Wis 7 Cha 16

Str ...I don't have a problem with this (and have built halflings with 5s). In the long term scheme of things, being a few points of damage behind a build with a 12 or 14 here at low levels is not adequate compensation for MAD'ing physical attributes in point-buy.

Dex ...I don't like overpaying for even stats at 1st in point-buy. Twenty points is not a lot to spread around.
Con ...14 is usually the "base" for a martial. But, if you're going to be a charismatic paladin, it can be a 12.
Int ... If you're not taking Combat Expertise, *this* is your rogue's dump stat. If it were a 7, you'd still be getting 6 skills points per level of rogue, or twice as many as most martials. You'll want Acrobatics, Diplomacy, Disable (unless you're forfeiting that with archetype choices), Perception, and UMD maxed; everything else can get by on a smattering.
Wis ...if you were a halfling who front-loaded at least two or three core paladin levels, you can get away with dumping wisdom. Most anyone else, not so much at all. (Your Perception check would also be -5 behind a halfling with a 12 in the attribute; a kitsune enjoys low-light, but that's not enough compensation.)
Cha ...spending 5 build points here for a 14>16 is OK (although obviously more ideal the more uses you have for it)
Quote:
Rogue Unchained (Knife Master) 16 Monk Unchained (Scaled Fist) 2 Paladin (Divine Hunter) 2

This...is a crash of conflicts (and I say this as possibly the forum's most ardent fan of multiclassing): uMonk[Scaled Fist] offers little to the wisdom-dumping Knife Master, since...

* saving throws and skills are explicitly not subject to the Scaled Fist's charisma>wisdom substitution,
* unchained monk does not advance will save (as opposed to core chained monk, which does).
* unchained monks cannot spend Ki for additional weapon attacks (whereas chained monks can).
* kukris are not monk weapons, and hence they cannot flurry with them. (The character is therefore not utilizing the flurry ability to accommodate the desire need for Two-Weapon Fighting.)
Quote:

Level 1: Rogue - Feat: Two-Weapon Fighting

Level 2: Rogue - Talent: Minor Magic (Acid Splash or similar)
Level 3: Rogue - Feat: Double Slice, Finesse Training: Kukri
Level 4: Paladin

* Due to the way PFS doles out hitpoints, it is generally advisable for multiclass builds to have the class with the beefiest dice at 1st level. E.g., a barbarian/rogue has 2hp more than a rogue/barbarian. (But note: all PFS characters are entitled to a *full* rebuild prior to beginning play at 2nd level.)

* I am not enamored of Minor Magic (and would consider Acid Splash a poor choice, even for the dextrous rogue). You have UMD, the most powerful skill in the game, and are playing in a campaign where very low-level characters can spend 2 prestige-points on a 750gp wand.
* Double Slice is generating +2 points of damage only in the circumstances of a full-attack in which you land a hit with your off-hand kukri.
Quote:
Level 7: Rogue - Feat: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Talent: Weapon Training (Kukri)

*TWF is a poor feat due to the way combat works in d20, as attacks are resolved from best-to-worst, meaning an ITWF attack will be the fourth in a sequence, fifth if you're hasted. IOW, most of the time it won't trigger.

* If you want Weapon Focus, you'll want it earlier than 7th.

(snip rest of build)

Quote:
Is there a better level 20 option than monk?

Unless you're grinding old modules daily at aforementioned friend's house, the likelihood of any PFS character reaching 20th is an utter infinitesimal. (When building for PFS, I straight up ignore anything after 8th in , figuring I'll either have retired the character or extensively retrained various bits by then, as it represents about two years' worth of real-world play time.)

~ ~ ~ ~ ~

(See all of my posts in this thread for more extensive analysis.)

~ ~ ~ ~ ~

STR- 10
DEX+ 17 (raise 4th)
CON: 12 (halfling, 15,15,12,12,12,10 20pt "no dumps" array)
INT: 12
WIS: 12
CHA+ 17 (raise 8th)

--OR--

STR- 8
DEX+ 19 (raise 4th)
CON: 12 (halfling, 17,15,12,12,10,7 20pt "dump" array)
INT: 7
WIS: 12
CHA+ 17 (raise 8th)

racial alternatives: Fleet of Foot
character traits: Fate's Favored, River Rat

01 Paladin1 [core][Smite1/day], Fey Foundling

-- This puts our LG alignment and charisma bonus to use right away at 1st, as well as front-loading the saving-throw bumps granted by the paladin class level.

02 uRogue1 [Knife Master][SA+1d6][Weapon Finesse]

-- Now finessing a MW cold-iron dagger (+1 damage due to River Rat)
-- rogue's skill load isn't mandatorily spread thin as the level wasn't taken at 1st

03 uRogue2 [Talent:Combat Trick:Two-Weapon Fighting], Accomplished Sneak Attacker, or FEAT(g)

or:

03 Paladin2 [Divine Grace][Lay on Hands]


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Slim Jim wrote:
Just because something is cool on Naruto doesn't mean in works great in Pathfinder.

If these boards had signatures, this would go into mine right now!

Dark Archive

1 person marked this as a favorite.

@slim jim
Halfling luck is a racial bonus, not a luck bonus. Fates favored doesn't work on it.


BobertTheThird wrote:

Anything clearly broken I should fix?

Any path of feats or class dips that would work better?

What steps have you taken to make sure you are getting your Sneak Attack Damage? I see Shatter Defenses at Level 9. Anything sooner?

Divine Hunter seems like it would work best if you were focusing on your crossbow, but it seems you want to focus on your Kukris.

Crossbow is an interesting choice. As a Paladin, you can use any Martial Weapon. I guess because your ST is 7?

I think maybe Daggers are the way for you to go here: neither Kukri nor Crossbow. Kukris have that lovely 18-20 Threat Range, but you aren't taking Improved Crit until level 11. Also, Kukri's base Damage is only 1d4: that's not a lot to double. Daggers have a Range Increment. They're Throwing Weapons, and they do either piercing or Slashing as opposed to the Kukri that only does slashing. You are planning to take Throw Anything, but not until level 20. Since the Level 3 Finesse Training only works for 1 weapon, it would be nice if it were a weapon that you can use both in melee and with some Range

I noticed you are a Half Elf, and I notice you are taking Rogue Magic tricks. I suggest you look at the Arcane Training Half Elf Alternate Racial Trait. I consider it essential. With that, instead of having to use a Talent or Feat slot to learn Acid Splash, you can use any magic wand you want, including a Wand of Acid Splash, or Finger of Cold if your target has ER against 1 but not the other, or, when you can afford it, Scorching Ray, and Greater Invisibility. If you are thinking of a Court Intrigue character, then you should really consider getting a Wand of Disguise Self (+10 on your check), all very cheap, available, and powerful options for a PFS campaign.

Also, can you tell me more about the flavor you are going for? How do you want this to look and feel? I have a lot of ideas about Rogue builds, but I don't want to squash your vision.


Name Violation wrote:

@slim jim

Halfling luck is a racial bonus, not a luck bonus. Fates favored doesn't work on it.

Hush, you; it's more fun the later at night you post and the woozier you are. (Jeesh, there's a crap-ton of typos and numeric boffs in that thing too. Curse the hour time-limit. Curse!)

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