Multiple attacks of tentacles (Black Magga)


Rules Questions


Hi.
In my next session, players are going to fight with the creature Black magga, which has a multiple attacks of tentacles.

Black Magga: Melee bite +24 (2d8+13/19–20 plus energy drain), 4 tentacles +19 (2d6+6 plus grab)

In a full round, the creature can attack with his bite, and with the 4 tentacles.

When she attack with a tentacle, it does the damage of the tentacle (2d6+6), and constriction damage (2d6+11). She can attack and grapple to 4 targets (+36 CMB). Is that so?.

In the next round, she could attack with his bite, and hold grappled targets with each tentacle (with -20 to CMB) doing constriction damage. is that correct?

Thank you.


When she hits with a tentacle she does 2d6+6 damage and gets a grapple attempt on the target. If the attempt succeeds it does the constriction damage, if it fails then no such damage. The attempt may be made with a -20 if she doesn't want to get the grappled condition. She can grapple up to 4 creatures this way, yes.

Maintaining grapples on multiple targets is something the rules don't cover well. RAW she can maintain a grapple on only one target and it takes her a standard action. Letting her maintain on multiple targets via a full attack if she took the -20 is a bit of interpretation/house rule. Not unreasonable mind you, and I doubt a +16 CMB will work on most characters capable of taking on a CR 15 enemy anyway.

The damage for a maintained grapple after the round where the character was grabbed is the tentacle damage + constrict damage.


avr wrote:

When she hits with a tentacle she does 2d6+6 damage and gets a grapple attempt on the target. If the attempt succeeds it does the constriction damage, if it fails then no such damage. The attempt may be made with a -20 if she doesn't want to get the grappled condition. She can grapple up to 4 creatures this way, yes.

Maintaining grapples on multiple targets is something the rules don't cover well. RAW she can maintain a grapple on only one target and it takes her a standard action. Letting her maintain on multiple targets via a full attack if she took the -20 is a bit of interpretation/house rule. Not unreasonable mind you, and I doubt a +16 CMB will work on most characters capable of taking on a CR 15 enemy anyway.

The damage for a maintained grapple after the round where the character was grabbed is the tentacle damage + constrict damage.

Thank you :)

But I do not see very logical that a gargantuan creature with 1 mouth and 4 tentacles uses only 1 tentacle as a standard action for maintain grapple. What rule do you follow?

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
sirmaniak wrote:
avr wrote:

When she hits with a tentacle she does 2d6+6 damage and gets a grapple attempt on the target. If the attempt succeeds it does the constriction damage, if it fails then no such damage. The attempt may be made with a -20 if she doesn't want to get the grappled condition. She can grapple up to 4 creatures this way, yes.

Maintaining grapples on multiple targets is something the rules don't cover well. RAW she can maintain a grapple on only one target and it takes her a standard action. Letting her maintain on multiple targets via a full attack if she took the -20 is a bit of interpretation/house rule. Not unreasonable mind you, and I doubt a +16 CMB will work on most characters capable of taking on a CR 15 enemy anyway.

The damage for a maintained grapple after the round where the character was grabbed is the tentacle damage + constrict damage.

Thank you :)

But I do not see very logical that a gargantuan creature with 1 mouth and 4 tentacles uses only 1 tentacle as a standard action for maintain grapple. What rule do you follow?

First of all, the rule of not turning your PCs into mush. It is a CR 15 encounter for level 9 (at most) characters, against an aquatic creature, in the water, while unprepared.

If you try to squeeze the maximum damage, you end with squeezed PCs.

Second, the grapple rules. Maintaining a single grapple is a standard action. There are no special rules for creatures with multiple limbs with the grab ability that allow them to maintain more than one grapple. Without a specific rule, they are limited to maintain the grapple on a single target.


Diego Rossi wrote:

First of all, the rule of not turning your PCs into mush. It is a CR 15 encounter for level 9 (at most) characters, against an aquatic creature, in the water, while unprepared.

If you try to squeeze the maximum damage, you end with squeezed PCs.

Second, the grapple rules. Maintaining a single grapple is a standard action. There are no special rules for creatures with multiple limbs with the grab ability that allow them to maintain more than one grapple. Without a specific rule, they are limited to maintain the grapple on a single target.

I don't want turning the party into mush xD,i just want some logic. There are 4 tentacles with five target grappled, and can you only keep the grapple in one? But on the other hand, the Black Magga can attack, grapple them, and release them, and at the next round attack them with all the tentacles. I think that should be a review of this.

That's why I was thinking of a home rule. I don't want to kill the party, but don't want that the Black Magga only can moves a tentacle in an round xD

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

The logic is that most RL creatures, even if they can grapple with several appendages at the same time, generally grapple a single target. My cats can start a grapple with either or both frontal paws, but I have never seen one of them grapple two different targets at the same time. I have seen them play with two different inanimated objects, but that is very different.

I can be wrong, but I don't recall a single photo of an octopus grappling multiple creatures. Plenty of drawings, but the accuracy of drawings in adventure books is questionable.

As a home rule, I prefer to give a bonus to the attempt to maintain a grapple or pin an opponent for each extra limb used against a single target. Creatures with multiple brains capable to operate independently can be an exception, but they generally have already special rules for what they can do.

BTW: the octopus have secondary brains in the tentacles and can do some simple core with them while doing other things, so they are potentially capable of grappling several creatures.


I imagine Black Magga like this:

Image


sirmaniak wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:

First of all, the rule of not turning your PCs into mush. It is a CR 15 encounter for level 9 (at most) characters, against an aquatic creature, in the water, while unprepared.

If you try to squeeze the maximum damage, you end with squeezed PCs.

Second, the grapple rules. Maintaining a single grapple is a standard action. There are no special rules for creatures with multiple limbs with the grab ability that allow them to maintain more than one grapple. Without a specific rule, they are limited to maintain the grapple on a single target.

I don't want turning the party into mush xD,i just want some logic. There are 4 tentacles with five target grappled, and can you only keep the grapple in one? But on the other hand, the Black Magga can attack, grapple them, and release them, and at the next round attack them with all the tentacles. I think that should be a review of this.

That's why I was thinking of a home rule. I don't want to kill the party, but don't want that the Black Magga only can moves a tentacle in an round xD

It is a known flaw in the grapple rules that characters with an abnormally large number of appendages are limited to maintaining only one grapple per round. In the thread I'm thinking of, one poster concluded that the optimal attack routine ended up being attacking with all tentacles, getting free grapple attempts with grab, constricting, and then releasing. And do this with all the tentacles the creature had, against 1 enemy.

I think it wasn't an octopus, but something similar to an octopus.

But yeah, the problem is that doing that method makes them incredibly deadly. But if you run them as only grappling once and holding onto the PC it makes them too easy.


The closest I came to the same situation was 3 half-fiend rock crabs who I was prepared to rule could squeeze two different enemies as a standard action. Since none of them got to maintain a grapple past the first round on even one of the PCs that house rule went untested.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

With an average of 31 hp of damage for each grapple and constrict and 32 for the bite, we get a total of 156 (without power attack). That is above the average damage of a CR 20 creature.
The other stuff is more or less ok for a CR 15 creature.
That has always been the problem with creatures with multiple grab attacks and constrict. If you limit constrict to 1/turn, it becomes a way more manageable 102 average, the norm for a CR 18 creature with high damage.


Diego Rossi wrote:

With an average of 31 hp of damage for each grapple and constrict and 32 for the bite, we get a total of 156 (without power attack). That is above the average damage of a CR 20 creature.

The other stuff is more or less ok for a CR 15 creature.
That has always been the problem with creatures with multiple grab attacks and constrict. If you limit constrict to 1/turn, it becomes a way more manageable 102 average, the norm for a CR 18 creature with high damage.

Some doubts:

1) When the tentacle grabs the target, it deals damage of tentacle (2D6+6), plus constriction damage (2D6+11). In the second round, would it also does damage of tentacle and constriction, or only the constriction?

2) If you mantain the grapple with the tentacle, can you bite the target or attack it with another tentacle?

Thank you.

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