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How the craft skill makes sense – some simple economics:
First we need to make a few assumptions and definitions. The cost (C) of an item is equal to the value of the raw materials (M) plus the time(T) required to turn those materials into a finished good. (C=M+T)
The cost of time has a minimum value of what someone needs to survive. Example: the cost of food and lodging. Any lesser value would be an unsustainable loss and make the production of an item unprofitable. The craftsman would actually be losing money. Therefore, a market price less than this amount is an unlikely exception to the rule above.
Market value equals the cost to produce an item plus a reasonable profit. This creates a flexible range of market value with a minimum of cost (C) and a variable maximum which depends on the availability of substitutes and similar items at a lower price. Let’s assume an average markup of 50%. This is called the equilibrium point (EP).
For similar items, the market value will be similar. Skill ranges will vary, but the cost (C) is set by a minimally skilled craftsman’s average results (unless a guild fixes the price, but that’s another exception to the basic economics). A more skilled craftsman can produce finished goods faster, which earns him additional leisure time, or he can produce a superior item which earns him a premium on his product, or he can produce more items within that time, which floods the market and reduces the market value. This is not generally in the skilled craftsman’s interest.
The skilled craftsman can afford to sell items below market value because he has a lower cost of production, but a minimally skilled individual or do-it-yourselfer can produce the item for their own use so this still creates a floor on the market value equal to the cost of materials and cost of time.
So an item with a cost of 10 gold pieces to produce will have an average market value of 15 gold pieces. If the buyer and seller choose to haggle the seller will not go below 10 gold pieces because he would take a loss. The buyer is unlikely to go above 20 gold pieces because he can probably find the item cheaper elsewhere.
This is a simplified overview of economics.
Pathfinder’s original crafting rules have four flaws.
First, they are complex.
Second, they don’t differentiate between cost and market value. If an item is rare, and therefore valuable, the rules say it takes longer to produce even if it’s a simple item.
Third, progress on complex items is faster than on simple items because the minimum DC is multiplied by the skill roll. Masterwork simple items (DC 20) are produced twice as fast as regular simple items (DC 10). The higher cost offsets this, but it’s still a logical inconsistency. The option to add 10 to the DC to work faster helps with this inconsistency, but the result is still exponential results from linear difficulty.
Fourth is the assumption that the raw materials will cost 1/3 market price. To illustrate this flaw compare a detailed wooden sculpture to a simple gold rod. Both could have a market value of 50 gold pieces. The value of the rod is in its raw material while the value of the sculpture is in the time and skill used to develop it. The 1/3 rule is nonsense.
Pathfinder unchained released a simplified crafting rule set. These reduce the math involved and suggest a ¼ raw materials cost but they still include the second and third flaws above.
The solution:
Use the rules from Pathfinder Unchained, with the following changes:
The raw material costs equal the actual value of the materials used. E.g. The cost of raw materials for 1 pound gold rod equals 50 gold pieces, the value of 1 pound of gold. The value of our 1 pound wooden sculpture equals a value of 1 pound of wood. The core rules list 20 pounds of firewood for one copper peace. This puts the raw materials cost for our sculpture at 1/20h of a copper piece, essentially free.
Set the cost of an item equal to 2/3 of its market value. The item is complete when the progress equals the cost. This value assumes the actual cost of time and materials to be a bit less than the market’s profit margin.
Let’s see how this works out. A craftsman with basic tools (no bonus), 1 rank in craft as a class skill (+1 and +3), and a +1 intelligence modifier can take 10 and get a 15 (2gp of progress / day). This means he can produce a basic longsword. He could roll and work faster, but he might make a mistake and mess it up, so he’ll just take 10.
The market value on a longsword is 15gp, so the cost is 10gp. Raw materials per core book are 4 pounds of iron or steel, and maybe a negligible amount of wood or leather for the grip. There’s lots of ways to make a sword so let’s not get bogged down in details of this or that sword.
The core rules don’t list steel on the trade goods list but a little research suggests it’s about 3 times the cost of iron. With iron at 1sp per pound, that’s 1gp and 2 sp for 4 pounds of steel. This means he has to make 8 gp and 8 sp worth of progress on craft checks. By taking 10 he’ll spend 5 days working on this sword. It could have gone faster, but he’s minimally skilled, after all.
Let’s look at his buddy, who was born and raised in a smithing family. He’ll start with the same build, but he inherited masterwork tools (+2) and has skill focus in craft (weapons) (+3). He can take 10 and get 20, making a similar sword in two and a half days. He can make a second sword in the same amount of time.
Now I come along looking to buy a sword. I see three swords, all of similar quality. I don’t care which one I buy, but I only need one. No matter who I buy from, the market has more swords than I need. I buy my sword and leave and these two craftsmen are left with 2 swords between them. The higher skilled smith could have spent their time better by making other items or doing something else to improve quality of life. Maybe he networks, maybe he advertises. Meanwhile, there are likely to be many more low skilled craftsmen than high skilled craftsman, so the balance of weapons shifts back toward the inefficient craftsmen. This is another reason why the minimally skilled craftsman sets the prices.
This leaves only one problem. The above example suggests that the living expenses for the minimally competent craftsman are 2 gold pieces per day. The core book says a common inn and good meals comes to 1 gold piece per day, so the cost of time for 5 days is only 5 gp, making the total cost of a longsword 5gp for labor, and 1.2 gp for the steel. So we either have a problem with the cost of the sword, or the cost of upkeep.
The real problem is that Pathfinder and 3.5 operate under the “Hero Economy” instead of a real, functioning economy. That is, things heroes don’t worry about, like food, land value and the cost of raising livestock, are minimized while things that give them combat advantages, like ranged weapons are maximized. In what logical world is a longbow made of wood and cord more expensive than a sword which was dug from the ground, melted out of the rock, then hammered into shape?
Grain Into Gold (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/13113/Grain-Into-Gold?it=1) is an excellent supplement for revising your game’s economy. As the author says, “an economy really starts with the cost of food and builds up from there…” This supplement lists many common prices in the back of the book and I’ve added many items for my own game. I adjusted the prices to a gold piece standard in my own games and added all the core items to my personal list. Still, I don’t want to take any credit away from the original author or risk copyright infringement, so let me just use a few of the prices I’ve come up with.
More realistic prices I’ve calculated, adjusting for inflation (See footnotes):
A day’s supply of food and the common room at an inn costs a little over 3.24 gp. These are decent meals, so let’s skimp a bit and round down to 3gp per day. This also assumes that you buy the food raw and prepare it yourself rather than buying from a tavern. We’ll use steel at 3 sp per pound. A longsword costs 35.16 gp at market with a crafting cost of 23.44 gp. I know these prices seem high, except the steel, but remember that we’re on a gold economy here.
Now our barely competent smith spends 1.2 gp for steel. He works at a rate of 2 gp per day for 11 days, incurring food costs of 33gp. His total cost of production is 34.2 gp, which is just barely met by the market value of the weapon he crafted. He has a profit of 9 sp and 6 cp.
Our skilled smith works twice as quickly, incurring living costs of 16.5 gp in addition to the 1.2gp worth of steel. His total cost is 17.7 gp and, as above, he has options with his extra time. He can afford to sell the weapon more cheaply at risk of devaluing the items, or he can instead upgrade his quality of life with his comparative savings, etc.
Even if you don't adjust prices for a sensible economy, crafting can be fixed by using the actual material cost and charging a daily upkeep fee appropriate to your market. Crafting isn't heroic, but it is modestly profitable. That's why NPCs do it.
Notes:
-Bear in mind that prices on everything can fluctuate wildly for any number of reasons. War and trade disputes are fun ones, as well as simple prejudice.
-My research has shown that, at least at some points, the historical exchange of gold silver and copper were 10-1, so the existing coinage system works fine.
-Compared to historical values, the Core Rulebook price of bread and other staples is inflated by about 10 times. Gold piece standard is fine here or you can rule that this is the real effect of adventurers dumping wealth on communities.
Interesting post. I also have a tweaked crafting system that I wrote up several years ago. Available here
Interesting post. I also have a tweaked crafting system that I wrote up several years ago. Available here
You've done a lot of excellent work. However, I believe your assumptions have one fatal flaw, driving your costs sky-high: using Inn and Tavern prices to set living expenses for craftsman.
Looking at the gear price lists as a whole, and comparing this with the listed wages for skilled and unskilled labor, it seems to me the Inn and Tavern prices are at an inflated premium. They are very similar to modern folk going out to eat and drink, not to mention staying at a motel/hotel. It costs MUCH less than this to keep a roof over your head, and food on the table.
Perhaps setting living expenses based on the listed wages, then applying all your other mathcraftical magic, would yield results.
Cooking for yourself and owning your home are definitely ways to cut costs. The prices for tavern food can be marked up 8x the actual cost and still be within normal ranges.
Similarly, buying some items in bulk and storing it till needed can also cut costs.
If one were to go with bread and water, the food cost would drop dramatically.
The inn and tavern figures are based more upon a layman just setting out for themselves. Apprentices don't actually own much, if anything. Once established, a craftsman can find ways to cut costs.
The OP's figures for longswords assume no infrastructure or fuel. To make that sword needs a whole lot of equipment which costs money: a forge, anvil, hammers, pliers, files, quenching vat, etc. This is a substantial investment, the cost of which could have been otherwise employed and should be amortised into the production cost.
Then there's the "negligible amount of wood". This is actually going to be barrowfuls of charcoal to fire the forge.
Of course that's for the case of the sword, which takes more equipment than something like a cloak which just needs a simple loom and some shears.
But in any case, the OP is generally correct in principle, though I'm not sure if the above is a useful way to derive prices. And unless a PC really feels like going into business, I suspect it doesn't matter.
A ground forge and a flat rock suffice for simple work.
Smithing quality coal is 3.3 gold for 500 lbs.
10 lbs of dry oak is only a copper. When I say negligible here, I'm referring to the cost.
A proper forge is nice, and it's fair to restrict masterwork without one, but basic smithing is pretty cheap. It really is the skill more than the tools.
There's a lot of difference between making a horseshoe or a bronze axe and making a steel sword or plate mail...
One thing the basic crafting rules doesn't consider (or only slightly, in the shape of Aid Another) is apprentices. Much of the time taken for that sword is the donkeywork like filing and grinding and carrying the 500 lbs of coal, for which you don't need any meaningful skill at all.
But ultimately, you'd need to consider pretty much every single item separately to define what you need to create it, what the volume discount might be, how many helpers of whatever skill level are beneficial and how, etc etc.
But anyway, as soon as you introduce magic, all this goes out of the window. A 1st level wizard or cleric can spam Mending 48 times in an 8-hour day, which means that some things don't need replacing in anything like the way they should. If there's anyone in town who knows Fabricate Bullets, nobody else will bother making them. But we all know that.
Interesting post. I also have a tweaked crafting system that I wrote up several years ago. Available hereYou've done a lot of excellent work. However, I believe your assumptions have one fatal flaw, driving your costs sky-high: using Inn and Tavern prices to set living expenses for craftsman.
Looking at the gear price lists as a whole, and comparing this with the listed wages for skilled and unskilled labor, it seems to me the Inn and Tavern prices are at an inflated premium. They are very similar to modern folk going out to eat and drink, not to mention staying at a motel/hotel. It costs MUCH less than this to keep a roof over your head, and food on the table.
Perhaps setting living expenses based on the listed wages, then applying all your other mathcraftical magic, would yield results.
Hi, thanks for the feedback. I quite liked the standards of living as a guide. At 1st level/unskilled it roughly equates to 1sp per day which seems consistent with various sources I'd read. The 5th level master earning just over 3 times that amount also seemed about right, with the true artisan (10th level) able to command 10 times the master's rate showing the cost of exclusivity.
There is almost certainly room to tweak the numbers for different trades to try and better reflect the listed wages. I never looked at those and I suspect that they won't align so easily without changing the item prices in the CRB.
@Mudfoot & Lady Asharah
You are assuming that the average junior wizard has nothing better to do than work as the the village tinkerman.
In the game world I GM, the existence of arcane magic is rare. Certainly less than 1% of the population. I'm fairly sure, though lost to the annals of possibly pre pathfinder time, that this was drawn from a wandering monster table where the bulk of humans were commoners or experts.
Those rare few have far better things to do, or at least are at the beck and call of nobility. They can't waste time and spells fixing a peasant's broken spade.
Ps: This explanation also rules out branches of 'Ye Olde Magic Shoppe' appearing on every street corner. For which I'm truly thankful.
1 Entrepreneur... a team of level 1 wizards.
Industrial revolution in progress.
This isn't "has nothing better to do" this is economic progress.
Jeff Bezos, ... the top students from Oxford, Cambridge, Harvard and Yale hand picked for Amazon. Sounds promising. Having them fix broken returns is perhaps not the best use of their time.