Group buff, your opinion is in demand.


Advice


We are a Level 15ner group consisting of Mages, Gunmen, Paladin and Bloodsweepers.

As a Gunmen, I die a lot, so I asked for buffs.
Answer: In the group there is regular bailing (haste).
Otherwise, no buffs will be distributed, and most will not be healed in combat except the paladin himself.

I would like to know your opinion, it is sufficient to buff your way out of just a hurry and that's it ??
Thank you for your time.


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I think you are fighting against two playstyle issues here:

1. Buffing up other PCs makes them a lot stronger, but at the cost of the person casting the buff not doing anything flashy or exciting themselves, and most people want to do something flashy in their turn.

2. A lot of builds online seem to be designed in a way that assumes that the character cannot rely on anyone else for support, so focus on maximising the character’s ability to do their own thing without support from other people. It’s particularly true in PFS where a lot of groups are random.

There isn’t a “right” answer because there isn’t a “right” way to play, but it does sound like your group is more a collection of individuals than a party built to work together, and that is hurting you as Gunslingers are not the strongest class in the game.


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I'm sorry, I don't really understand the OP. Am I just hopelessly out of the loop in terms of new jargon, or is this a typing/language barrier?


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

All I know is I want to play a bloodsweeper. I picture a really pissed off Dick Van D!**.


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Quixote I can not speak English, that's why I use the google translator


If I'm reading that correctly then it just depends on the group whether to do few buffs or a lot of buffs. But you can never expect someone else to cast buffs for your character. Their character is their own, they decide what to do with it. If they made a Wizard who shoots Fireballs, that's what they're going to want to do.

I'm curious what buffs you wanted though. The Gunslinger should have decent AC and HP, the Wizard defensive buffs tend to be personal, cost money, or are single target. And almost all of them are very short duration. They might not have the buffs you want or the buffs might not work how you think they do.

As a general rule, healing in combat is a bad idea because healing doesn't heal as much as the damage being done. Sometimes it's a good idea to heal, the Heal spell heals enough to be worth it, but generally the attacks are doing more damage than healing. The best use of the healer's actions is to try to kill the enemies before they can attack again.

Similarly, buffing is a balancing act between improving party members and hurting enemies. The best buffs last a long time (and are cast before battle) or affect the entire party. A spell to protect a single party member either better be a really powerful spell or that party member has to be really important. And while your own character is super important to you, that doesn't mean they're important to the party as a whole.

The best guideline I've seen is that if you ask for a spell you compensate the caster in some way. If your friend is a chef you don't just show up at their house and demand they make you dinner. You might bring them some fancy ingredient you got and ask them nicely to cook it though.

Shadow Lodge

Potions are inexpensive and you can use them by yourself. Is there any pattern to how you die, that you could counter by using different tactics or by getting magic items to protect against specific kinds of threats that kill you most often? Can you get a henchman or hire an NPC to help protect you while you shoot at the enemy?


Yeah, the best solution is the solve the problem yourself.

If you can take Leadership, do so. Grab a cleric cohort to be your personal buffer. That means spending some of your personal wealth to equip your cohort but it is so worth it. A cleric would be able to cast a few buffs that help the entire party if you wish, or reserve those spells to give you stronger buffs. As a gunslinger you shouldn't have any trouble hitting. Getting more bonuses to hit probably won't help you. But a shield other from the cleric plus some in-combat healing will definitely make you a lot more tanky. Also having resist energy available as needed can make all the difference in the world.

When your cleric is not casting spells the cleric should stick close to you, and probably be performing full defense. The extra AC should be enough to keep the cleric from getting one-shotted by the encounter that is probably way above the NPC's level. Hopefully the GM will ignore the follower a little bit if they don't stand out.

The Exchange

Another alternative would be to change the playing group - either the PCs currently being played or the players you are playing with.


I understand.

Answer: buffing is am important strategy. Buffs are often more effective than damage spells, but not always.

Pathfinder is a collaborative game. Teamwork is required to succeed and can help players enjoy the game on a deeper level.
I encourage my players to use teamwork. The best of them are constantly using readied actions and supporting each other, which makes them more powerful.

Find specific ways for your character to help the other player's characters. Find ways for all of you to work together.


As one member of the party Deathstern mentioned (I play an Oath of Vengeance Paladin) I feel the need to explain the situation in more detail.

1. The player who plays the wizard is absent for like 3-4 months, so I have to play both characters which lead to concentrating on my paladin and to not being perfectly firm in the exact amounts of spells and their usage of the wizard. This is due to the fact that I have only an old character sheet for the wizard, and as we all know, playing a wizard is complex enough if its your own character.

2. Yes, there is a pattern in which the gunslinger dies. Except for one overwhelming fight, he does not act tactical enough.

The last death, and that is why he posted here, happened as we had a random encounter against a single plant monster. Instead of leaving the fight to both the paladin and the bloodrager and withdraw tactictally by using 5-foot-steps over 2-3 rounds in combination with full defense, Deathstern decided to unneccessarily engage in the fight. Until then the bloodrager had taken 0 damage (having 200 HP) and the Paladin 10 damage (having 157 hp and still 18 Lay on hands with 14d6+28 healing).

Because the bloodrager envoked an aura of fire, and because the plant grabbed the gunslinger and pulled him on the bloodrager, he took two times fire damage and died from that.

3. Yes, he asked for a buff from the wizard which I denied for the following reasons:

A) We had a previous encounter where he and the wizard also died because the GM tried to kill us. As this was an encounter in a dream world and does not lead to real dying, only to insanity, fair enough. The fight the GM unleashed upon us included having nearly all the encounters of the whole dungeon coming in 4-5 waves upon us. At the end of the fight the wizard had zero spells left and the paladin had 0 Smite Evil and 2 LoHs left. Only then were we allowed to being out of combat and rest.

B) In the campaign we are acting against a time counter. We are short of the final engagement and as we have only 2-3 days left I did not want the wizard to waste one of his spells against a single random encounter.

C) The pattern of dying is one that is due to tactical errors mostly, imho at least, and due to the low CON and HP of the gunslinger. Deathstern is concentrating on a build full of special abilities (flying gunslinger with stealth) and what not but has neglected the basics, like for example taking Toughness or whatever as a feat to improve his chance on surviving if he becomes engaged in a fight.

It is not that we do not buff. It is not that the whole party is not overpowered (we won the fight which should have even killed a 1-2 level higher party) due to the wizard crafting like crazy all the time.

Its just that I decided to save spells because we are very near to the final boss, the random encounter looked really harmless to me and the bloodrager, and that I did not know that the gunslinger would attack with his really low damage against a tree and therefore would die.


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Chris Kanone wrote:

As one member of the party Deathstern mentioned (I play an Oath of Vengeance Paladin) I feel the need to explain the situation in more detail.

Your details lack any useful details. Honestly sounds more like excuses and posturing.

1) If the wizard is too much for you to handle, hand it off or just kick the character from the campaign. If it is too hard, do something about it. Don't use that as an excuse.

2) Is this really suppose to explain anything? Like why exactly is a full BAB ranged damage dealer suppose to avoid doing his role? And how does a grab do fire damage? If this is Kanone's idea of an explanation I can understand why other people would be frustrated.

3) I don't know if a single buff would of prevented the Gunslinger from dying or not, but how much of your party resources are you going to have to spend to bring back a dead party member? I'm sure its probably more expensive in time and gold than whatever buff the wizard might of been able to use.

Even if you hate Deathstern's build, using some of the wizards spell power to make up for his deficiencies isn't a waste of time. If you feel he doesn't have enough HP to survive an encounter cast a displacement on him or something else that will mitigate a lot of damage. Or since you were talking about making magic items maybe upgrade his belt to +6 con? That is 3 times as effective as spending a feat on Toughness and by 15th level cheap even as a 2 stat belt.

Honestly with Kanone's attitude I really hope the BBG of the campaign has an absurd AC and the only party member that can actually hit it is the Gunslinger. The whole "the random encounter looked really harmless to me and the bloodrager, and that I did not know that the gunslinger would attack with his really low damage against a tree and therefore would die." thing is really rude.


Well, I got to have to add that the plant monster had a range of 9 meters, with the gunslinger standing the most far away from it. Therefore he could have moved back to safety without any troubles before starting to shoot (which caused an AoO which did lead to his death). As the melee fighters were both in attacking range and as there was no to little damage done to them so far, there was no need to take the risk.

If we kick the wizard, we will have rather less then more buff spells. Dont think that to be a good solution. Also, the player will hopefully return in time.

The gunslinger asked for an mighty invisibility buff which was precious at the time and which did not promise success as to our information the plant could see invisibile persons. Twice the reason for me, not to waste a 4th level spell.

At last, if I had known that he would die, I would of course have buffed him, to whichever outcome that would have lead. I just estimated the encounter as very harmless which it proved out to be, in spite of the death of the gunslinger.

He died from the fire aura of the bloodrager. The plant had grabbed them both and drew them towards it so that they were on neighbouring fields. In a way, activating that fire aura was unlucky to in the end...

So, that the gunslinger died was merely very unlucky and due to his own hasty decisions. He could have moved away one more round and engage from a safe distance while we were tanking that monster in melee, as I think a ranged character is supposed to.

No one ever prevented him from having a con belt crafted. He just decided not to do that and spent his money elsewhere.


1.) The monster had a range of 9 m, I was at 3 m.
If I go 1.5 m backwards and then in full defense, I am 4.5 m away without camouflage, with an Rk of 34.
The monster attacked with +27.
Of course I would not have passed my freedom of movement ring with the Rumeshand, to the magician, to get him out of the wrestling match, I would have escaped by playing.

2.) It's difficult to play 2 characters, especially if one of them is the magician.
I completely agree with you and what I now say to the magician is not a criticism of you.

When the other player is gone, the mage does 90% of the following in combat.
1 round spell haste, then mostly full defense for the rest of the fight.
Long-term magic with a duration of 10M / ST or more. Were NEVER worked. For example, Heroism, Mighty Magic Weapon, Mighty Magic Armor
After a fight where the complete dungeon comes at once, the magician and the others have no spells left.

3.) My KO is 10 and my health is 97. My RK 28.
I'm a ranged, why do I need as much life and RK as a melee?
I have a +2 St, + 2Ge belt.
Strength because of load and flying.

4.) Money and magic items.
I had to pay for any magic except hurry, out of my own pocket (potion).
In addition, the shooter has other issues, such. Verderbniskugeln.
If I use 2 or 3 Corruption Balls per attack, then after a fight, it's already 10 or more times.
One costs about 166.5 G.
The Paladin and the Bloodbearer, can buff themselves with their spells and do not have to pay for it.
Should NOT be a reproach, but only a fact.

To manufacture, the following is true in a campaign where there is very little time to produce.
The time available, was mostly fully booked, if you remember.

I also give 2 things to consider.
1.) The monsters get 1-2 levels more than they are in the book.
2.) When I attack, in front of me 2 Rk monsters, which I do not meet. I'm looking for someone with my reach someone I meet.

PS: So that I can write to you, I use the Google translator, because my English is bad.


I think the language barrier make it hard to know what exactly is going on, here.
My suggestions:

-get an updated copy of the wizard's character sheet. Whoever runs this character focuses their effort on this character; no bloodrager, paladin or ginslinger is as good as a high-level wizard.

-know your math. A character death by another character should never come as a surprise. Look at the Bloodrager's damage. Look at the gunslinger's hit points. Communicate the information.

-act tactically. If you are a ranged combatant within the reach of a big monster, withdraw!

-work together. Do not complain, make excuses or blame each other. Teamwork is key.


Good advice, Quixote.
Now I am feeling childish :-) But I did not want the post go uncommented, so I guess we will finish the final book that way or the other.


That looks like what I expected.

The Gunslinger is playing agressively. The buff might not have helped. The Wizard did not use the buff because they thought it would not help and was not needed. The Gunslinger did not play how the Wizard expected and it led to the death.

Now what I cannot figure out because of the language barrier. Either the Wizard never casts long duration spells or the real Wizard player casts them and the substitute player does not. Also the Wizard doesn't get Magic Vestment (which is what I am guessing Mighty Magic Armor is) so I am a little confused about what the spells are. Heroism is the only one of those spells that stacks with common magic items though. Greater Magic Weapon and Magic Vestment (at level 15) have no point if you have +3 armor and weapons already. By level 15 you should have +3 armor and weapons. Probably higher.

deathstern wrote:
I'm a ranged, why do I need as much life and RK as a melee?

This does need to be talked about though. Ranged attackers do not need as much AC (RK?) if they stay out of monster's attack range. If you are standing near a monster then you need just as much AC as the melee fighters. And in that story you seemed to be standing real close to the monster.


Normally, I'm not that far in front, but I was asked to change my strategy and be closer to the magician if I want to have a buff.

I know the example spells at level 15 do not do much. It was just one example of such magic that was never summoned.

I thank you for your time and answers.


If the player playing the paladin is having a hard time dealing with playing the mage, why not have the player playing the gunslinger play him? That would solve a lot of the problems.

Also if the gunslinger is unhappy with the amount of buffs he is getting he should look into providing more for himself. Potions and other magic items can usually do the trick.

While the game is a cooperative endeavor, each character should be able to survive on their own. If you character constantly requires buffs from other characters to survive when the rest of the party does not you may want to reconsider your build.


Fixing Google Translate...

deathstern wrote:

1.) The monster had a range of 30', I was at 10'.

If I go 5' backwards and then in full defense, I am 15' away without camouflage, with an AC of 34.
The monster attacked with +27.
Of course I would not have passed my freedom of movement ring with the Rumeshand(?), to the magician, to get him out of the wrestling match, I would have escaped by playing.

2.) It's difficult to play 2 characters, especially if one of them is the magician.
I completely agree with you and what I now say to the magician is not a criticism of you.

When the other player is gone, the mage does 90% of the following in combat.
1 round spell haste, then mostly full defense for the rest of the fight.
Long-term magic with a duration of 10M / CL or more. Were NEVER worked. For example, Heroism, Greater Magic Weapon, Greater Magic Armor
After a fight where the complete dungeon comes at once, the magician and the others have no spells left.

3.) My HD is 10 and my health is 97. My AC 28.
I'm a ranged, why do I need as much life and AC as a melee?
I have a +2 St, + 2Ge(?) belt.
Strength because of load and flying.

4.) Money and magic items.
I had to pay for any magic except hurry, out of my own pocket (potion).
In addition, the shooter has other issues, such. Verderbniskugeln(?).
If I use 2 or 3 Corruption Balls(?Corrosive Arrow?) per attack, then after a fight, it's already 10 or more times.
One costs about 166.5 G. (=+2 equivalent item that costs 0.5gp each)
The Paladin and the Bloodbearer(?Bloodrager?), can buff themselves with their spells and do not have to pay for it.
Should NOT be a reproach, but only a fact.

To manufacture, the following is true in a campaign where there is very little time to produce.
The time available, was mostly fully booked, if you remember.

I also give 2 things to consider.
1.) The monsters get 1-2 levels more than they are in the book.
2.) When I attack, in front of me 2 Rk(?) monsters, which I do not meet. I'm looking for someone with my reach someone I meet.

PS: So that I can write to you, I use the Google translator, because my English is bad.

Not quite sure what everything was, but I got most of them.

Rather than full defense, the wizard should use spells to speed up combat for you. Less combat time is less damage to heal. Suggestions: If you don't already have a Dex enhancement, then Cat's Grace wil help your ranged attacks. Greater Invibility lets you attack without being seen, causing you to negate their Dex bonus to AC. Fly lets you get off the ground, and be nearly immune to non-flier melee attacks. Slow debuffs the enemy, Glitterdust can blind an enemy and make an invisible one visible. Black Tentacles can pin down enemies for you to shoot from a distance. Flaming Sphere can attack each round, giving the wizard something useful to do instead of full defense. Summon Monster X to get another creature on the board to absorb damage. [Best part of SM is that it won't break Invisibility.]

/cevah

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