All Warpriest advice welcome


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Hello Paizonians,

I'm trying to build a Warpriest of Urgathoa. I went with Urgathoa because I would like to use the Scythe for its solid damage and its ability to trip whenever I'm not using Harming Font to knock my enemies Prone with Castdown. I'm confused as to what my 3 main skills should be, In this build I took Intimidate, Medicine and Athletics, Here's what I have tell me what you would change.

Human Cleric of Urgathoa

Str 16
Dex 12
Con 10
Int 10
Wis 18
Cha 12

Is there anyway to get Fighter dedication at level 2/4 for the AOO? I need 14 Dex somehow, I would love to get it because my character can Castdown the enemy with Harming Font and spend my third action making an attack with the scythe. Two things I truly wish this character had were access to the spell Haste and AOO.
.

Level 1:
Ancestry feat: Natural ambition - Harming Hands
Background: Farmhand
Deity: Urgathoa
Versatile Heritage: Incredible Initiative
First Doctrine: Warpriest (trained in light and medium armor)

Level 2:
Class feat: Fighter MC or Domain Initiate Might
Skill feat: Intimidating Glare

Level 3:
Skill Increase: Intimidate (expert)
General feat: Toughness
Second Doctrine: Trained in martial weapons

Level 4:
Class feat: Fighter MC (AOO) or Emblazon Armament
Skill feat: Intimidating Prowess

Level 5:
Skill increase: Medicine (expert)
Ancestry feat: Clever Improviser
Ability boosts: Str, Wis, Con, Cha
Alertness: Perception becomes Expert proficiency

Level 6:
Class feat: Cast Down
Skill feat: Titan Wrestler?

Level 7:
General feat: Fleet
Skill increase: Intimidate (master)
Third Doctrine: Expert proficiency with Deity's favored weapon (Scythe)

Level 8:
Class feat: Advanced Domain: Enduring Might
Skill feat: Battle medicine

Level 9:
Ancestry Feat: Incredible Improvisation
Skill increase: Medicine (master)
Resolve: Will saves (Master)

Level 10:
Ability Boosts: Str, Con, Wis, Cha
Class feat: Replenishment of War
Skill feat:

Level 11:
Fourth Doctrine: Proficiency ranks for divine spell attack rolls and spell DCs increase to expert.
General Feat:
Skill increase: Athletics (Expert)
Lightning Reflexes: Reflex saves (Expert)

Level 12:
Class feat: Domain Focus
Skill feat:

At level 12 he will likely be dealing 3D10+4 damage (+5 only with Emblazon Armament) and his Harming Font will deal 6D10 damage. So a sample round vs a boss would be:

1st action: Castdown
2nd action: Harming Font
3rd action: Attack

Total potential damage 9D10+4. I have no idea whether this is a small amount of damage compared to fighters and barbarians, an average amount of damage or a very good amount of damage at this level, maybe someone can chime in?

Thanks for all your help friends, I'm really hoping this character can be much more than just viable, with your help I feel it certainly could be.


The easy way I see you getting Dex 14 is putting your Farmhand free boost into Dex instead of Str.

I might not have emphasized Harm so much without supporting it with a higher Cha modifier. I guess you're only planning to use it against the big bad, and even then only if they're not undead?


Baarogue wrote:

The easy way I see you getting Dex 14 is putting your Farmhand free boost into Dex instead of Str.

I might not have emphasized Harm so much without supporting it with a higher Cha modifier. I guess you're only planning to use it against the big bad, and even then only if they're not undead?

Then would I basically have a 14 Str to start? Ya I would basically start with 2 Harms a day which would be used against the big bad, and one or two level one spell slots on a couple more Harms if really needed.

I guess also in a round at lvl 12 if I didn't want to use Castdown for whatever reason, I could cast Harm twice and attack also for a potential 15D10+6 damage.


Yeah there isn't really any way to keep the 16 Str at chargen unless you sacrifice Wis or Cha, neither of which would be my choice. The Str boost you get at level 5 puts you at the req for the heavier med armors, if you prefer them over scale mail.

That's quite an alpha strike if you can pull it off. Have you considered fitting Selective Energy (Cleric 6) in your build somewhere in case you wanted to take out a lot of minions without nuking your party, or are you solely single-target focused?


Baarogue wrote:

Yeah there isn't really any way to keep the 16 Str at chargen unless you sacrifice Wis or Cha, neither of which would be my choice. The Str boost you get at level 5 puts you at the req for the heavier med armors, if you prefer them over scale mail.

That's quite an alpha strike if you can pull it off. Have you considered fitting Selective Energy (Cleric 6) in your build somewhere in case you wanted to take out a lot of minions without nuking your party, or are you solely single-target focused?

Hmm, I think I'm more single target focused but I'm open to the 3 action version. Just trying to make the best Cleric of Urgathoa I can. It just seems whatever level 2 and 4 class feats I grab they are not going to be as good as AOO. That AOO extra attack is just so powerful when you have Castdown. Is there a different race I could play to reach that Dex 14 requirement or is the best way to lower Str to a measly 14?


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If you want to use your weapon for trip, you should prioritize Athletics much more in your skills. I would raise it first at each possible level.

Don't worry about starting with 12 Cha. By the time you get Cast Down, it'll already be 14. And you'll have 3rd level spells and can easily spare one or two 1st level slots for additional Harm spells to knock stuff down. Five times Cast Down should be plenty for boss fights. Use your weapon's trip ability for minor enemies.

I don't see a good way to fit 14 Dex in there. Lowering Strength is the best option, but still sucks. Even at 16 you're already behind pure martials. Falling back even further doesn't sound fun to me. Especially since it also affects your Athletics check to Trip, not only your attack and damage.

Then again, if you know you're only playing to level 12, you'll end up with a +4 strength mod no matter what. I'd still try to avoid being behind for the first 9 levels.

I'm also still hoping that the prerequisites for Fighter Dedication (and Barbarian, Monk and Champion) is a typo and should say "Strength 14 OR Dexterity 14". I see no reason why those four should have higher requirements than the other multiclass archetypes. But so far it's only wishful thinking. We'll see once the first update is released.


Blave wrote:
I'm also still hoping that the prerequisites for Fighter Dedication (and Barbarian, Monk and Champion) is a typo and should say "Strength 14 OR Dexterity 14". I see no reason why those four should have higher requirements than the other multiclass archetypes. But so far it's only wishful thinking. We'll see once the first update is released.

I'm hoping they do this for Fighter and Monk, as those two classes can be built with one but not two of those stats (Similar to Ranger, which already uses only Dexterity). For Champion and Barbarian, however, I'm fine with it being both stats. Plus, those two are more advanced classes anyways, I don't mind them having additional requirements, especially relative to Fighter, which should be easy to access IMO.


Is it possible to get AOO from Fighter at a higher level say not 2 and 4 but what about 6 and 8 or something?


Sure, if you have nothing better to get at those levels.

I assumed you'd get Cast Down at 6, so you wouldn't have AoO before level 10. It's questionable if that's worth it if you're only playing to 12 anyway.


Ohh, no it would be a full campaign sorry I should have mentioned that. Is it possible to retrain once I'm level 5 or 6 let's say, and replace my level 2 and 4 feats for fighter dedication and snatch AOO? Is that something that is in the rules or is that something that isn't retrainable?


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Retraining is certainly in the game. The thing you'll need to note is this:

"When retraining, you generally can’t make choices you couldn’t make when you selected the original option. For instance, you can’t exchange a 2nd-level skill feat for a 4th-level one, or for one that requires prerequisites you didn’t meet at the time you took the original feat. If you don’t remember whether you met the prerequisites at the time, ask your GM to make the call. If you cease to meet the prerequisites for an ability due to retraining, you can’t use that ability. You might need to retrain several abilities in sequence in order to get all the abilities you want."

So if you want to retrain your level 2 and 4 feats, you need to have had the prerequisite attributes at level 2 and 4.


HammerJack wrote:

Retraining is certainly in the game. The thing you'll need to note is this:

"When retraining, you generally can’t make choices you couldn’t make when you selected the original option. For instance, you can’t exchange a 2nd-level skill feat for a 4th-level one, or for one that requires prerequisites you didn’t meet at the time you took the original feat. If you don’t remember whether you met the prerequisites at the time, ask your GM to make the call. If you cease to meet the prerequisites for an ability due to retraining, you can’t use that ability. You might need to retrain several abilities in sequence in order to get all the abilities you want."

So if you want to retrain your level 2 and 4 feats, you need to have had the prerequisite attributes at level 2 and 4.

Thanks Hammerjack. The news was not encouraging but very helpful!


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If it's a whole campaign, just be half-elf, leave dex at 12 and get multitalented at 9 and AoO at 10. Problem solved.


Blave wrote:
If it's a whole campaign, just be half-elf, leave dex at 12 and get multitalented at 9 and AoO at 10. Problem solved.

Gold! What's better about Half Elf instead of Human? And which ancestry feats do you recommend before level 9?


Honestly if you're doing that, I'd recommend Champion MC ~2 to get heavy armor proficiency. You have to wait until level 12 for AoO, but you can leave your Dexterity at 10 and be whatever race you want.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
tivadar27 wrote:
Honestly if you're doing that, I'd recommend Champion MC ~2 to get heavy armor proficiency. You have to wait until level 12 for AoO, but you can leave your Dexterity at 10 and be whatever race you want.

That would require home brewing champions of other alignments.


Maybe not, Champion MC doesn't have an alignment restriction. You can take the feat, but you don't actually qualify for any cause. Unclear what happens if you take the feat in that situation, but not simply gaining anything from that part of it is a reasonable reading.


Ahh, right, non-good :). Nevermind. As Squiggit pointed out, there's no alignment restrictions, but then again, probably not very "in character". Still, they've pretty much promised non-good champions, so it's possible you could get around some of it, though yeah... that seems like tricksy tricksters.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

I really don't think it is. The cause isn't just a benefit you gain. The tenets tied to it are the core and most important part of the class that you're taking a dedication into, not an afterthought to mark "N/A".


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Atalius wrote:
Gold! What's better about Half Elf instead of Human? And which ancestry feats do you recommend before level 9?

A Half-Elf taking a dedication feat via Multitalented can ignore its prerequisites. It's currently the only way to get fighter dedication with 12 dex.

Level 1 feat would probably be Natural Ambition to get Harming Hands. For level 5 I'd usually recommend Clever Improviser for any character with few skills like a cleric.


HammerJack wrote:
I really don't think it is. The cause isn't just a benefit you gain. The tenets tied to it are the core and most important part of the class that you're taking a dedication into, not an afterthought to mark "N/A".

So I'd probably rule that the player would need to select one of the dedications, but then immediately violate it (not be of the right alignment). That *might* not matter as a warpriest, as you mostly lose your Focus Pool when you do this. If you're not taking domains, then it shouldn't be an issue.


With a 20 Wisdom at level 10 how likely am I to land my Harm spell vs enemies? Since my proficieny will only be trained.


Atalius wrote:
With a 20 Wisdom at level 10 how likely am I to land my Harm spell vs enemies? Since my proficieny will only be trained.

Honestly not very likely... But at least it's save for half. That's one of the *big* disadvantages of warpriest TBH.


Like 50% to land? Or 40% to land?


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By "land" you mean "save", right? Also, Cast Down works so long as they don't critically succeed (as long as they take some damage) Your save DC will be your level +7 and it's a Fortitude Save.

According to this your chance is:
50% on weak save on average (5% to do no damage)
40% on medium save on average (10% to do no damage)
25% on strong save on average (25% to do no damage)


Ugh that's rough, but levels 11-14 I'll be the same as a cloistered.


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Atalius wrote:
With a 20 Wisdom at level 10 how likely am I to land my Harm spell vs enemies? Since my proficieny will only be trained.

Best +24

High +22
Medium +19
Low +16
Terrible +14

With 20 wisdom and trained you will get a save of 10+level+7 = 27
So your chances of hitting are about
5% on the best (50% half,5% double, 40% nothing )
15% on the high (50% half,5% double, 30% nothing )
30% on medium (50% half,5% double, 15% nothing )
40% on low (50% half,5% double, 5% nothing )
45% on terrible. (15% double,5% nothing,35% half)


Harm Warpriest is starting to sound like he sucks :( basically a weak caster, and a weaker martial than a barbarian and a fighter.


Atalius wrote:
Harm Warpriest is starting to sound like he sucks :( basically a weak caster, and a weaker martial than a barbarian and a fighter.

So there are a couple routes here:

1. Get Channel Smite. There'll be times when it's worse, and it only scales up to Expert Proficiency, but keep in mind it also benefits from things like Flank and Item bonuses to hit (there is no save).
2. Be a Cloistered Cleric? I think this route is better if you use a whip (Calistria) and can go finesse. But I'm guessing this would greatly impact your actual build.


tivadar27 wrote:
Atalius wrote:
Harm Warpriest is starting to sound like he sucks :( basically a weak caster, and a weaker martial than a barbarian and a fighter.

So there are a couple routes here:

1. Get Channel Smite. There'll be times when it's worse, and it only scales up to Expert Proficiency, but keep in mind it also benefits from things like Flank and Item bonuses to hit (there is no save).
2. Be a Cloistered Cleric? I think this route is better if you use a whip (Calistria) and can go finesse. But I'm guessing this would greatly impact your actual build.

Interesting I never considered Channel Smite but it seems so risky, I can lose a Harm if I miss on my attack roll? So if I use Castdown+Channel Smite and I miss with the attack roll everything fails?


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Atalius wrote:
Harm Warpriest is starting to sound like he sucks :( basically a weak caster, and a weaker martial than a barbarian and a fighter.

Well... He is a generalist. Obviously he won't be as good as a fighter/barbarian/paladin it would just go back to 1e where casters could be indisputed kings...

He is a decent caster and a modest striker. He will get his fighting proefs faster than a cloistered but will never be as good as a paladin, he can buff well, heal well and can cast decent spells.
But he isn't the best at anything, if you want a holy crusader go paly instead, if you want better casting go cloystered instead. If you want someone with a bit more flexibility and not as good in both go warpriest.
My tip is that most enemies got some weakness. Not all saves are the same, enemies that got strong saves sometimes got low AC. So diversify your stuff, and use your powers to make your trip more effective.


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Warpriests are best at casting spells that aren't offensive.

The real drag is that because proficiency is so compressed in 2e, Warpriests are only ever better at swinging weapons than Cloistered Clerics for a few levels. So they do end up feeling kind of lacking all around as a result sometimes.

The main draw of playing a Warpriest, despite its name and connotations, is easy access to medium armor and the better fort saves.


Hmm maybe the plan is just to do everything the same except go Cloistered? Because by level 11 his weapon will be as good as a Warpriests?


Atalius wrote:
Hmm maybe the plan is just to do everything the same except go Cloistered? Because by level 11 his weapon will be as good as a Warpriests?

Well if you do that it's better to not invest in divine smite. But yes your damage will be higher with harm. Even if your AC will probably be not as high since you lack armor prof.


oholoko wrote:
Atalius wrote:
Hmm maybe the plan is just to do everything the same except go Cloistered? Because by level 11 his weapon will be as good as a Warpriests?
Well if you do that it's better to not invest in divine smite. But yes your damage will be higher with harm. Even if your AC will probably be not as high since you lack armor prof.

Ohhh ya forgot about the armor, so I should get medium armor prof and sport some breast plate at some point?


How does one go about raising their armor proficiency above Trained when gaining it via feats instead of as a class feature?


Atalius wrote:
oholoko wrote:
Atalius wrote:
Hmm maybe the plan is just to do everything the same except go Cloistered? Because by level 11 his weapon will be as good as a Warpriests?
Well if you do that it's better to not invest in divine smite. But yes your damage will be higher with harm. Even if your AC will probably be not as high since you lack armor prof.
Ohhh ya forgot about the armor, so I should get medium armor prof and sport some breast plate at some point?

Not at all... Those are just worth early game. I mean two feats or a rogue dedication and a general feat to stay trained in them? And never getting expert?

If you got cloystered just accept no armor as default.

Baarogue wrote:
How does one go about raising their armor proficiency above Trained when gaining it via feats instead of as a class feature?

They can use paladin as an archetype... But i don't think any other way exists. It seems like the archetypes in the book got some way to do it.


I guess I could spend two general feats to grab medium armor, and go Cloistered to have my Harm spells do some solid damage. By level 11 he will be just as good as a Warpriest with weapons except better with spells.


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The problem with armor is right now the only way to gain Expert in armor is Champion, which has thematic baggage attached to it (unless you agree with my weird interpretation that you can simply fail to qualify for a cause and ignore that part of the dedication).

The new Lost Omens book has Hellknights gaining armor scaling, but that also has thematic baggage attached to it (and costs four feats instead of two).


That is good.

The possibility, but at a cost.


Squiggit wrote:

The problem with armor is right now the only way to gain Expert in armor is Champion, which has thematic baggage attached to it (unless you agree with my weird interpretation that you can simply fail to qualify for a cause and ignore that part of the dedication).

The new Lost Omens book has Hellknights gaining armor scaling, but that also has thematic baggage attached to it (and costs four feats instead of two).

I was kinda said they didn't make Cavalier the "default" heavy armor wearer, and then basically make Paladin orders for them. Would have removed the (default) baggage, and they could have expanded the orders/started with non-deity orders to begin with.

EDIT: Tying alignments to a class identity when they were trying to make the alignment system more optional just seems like a bad idea.


Anyone know the likelyhood of criting at level 12 with a +24 to attack roll Vs a monster one level higher than me? Trying to calculate how likely the Scythe D10 Deadly would work. Thanks for your help.


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Atalius wrote:
Anyone know the likelyhood of criting at level 12 with a +24 to attack roll Vs a monster one level higher than me? Trying to calculate how likely the Scythe D10 Deadly would work. Thanks for your help.

Okay let's first check what +24 entails.

+4 str(16+2+1= 19)
+2 item
+16 expert(12+4)
+2 status(Heroism)

So you can probably wiggle 1 to 4 more from circumstance(Help action) and -2 from flank.

37 With a +24 to hit here you only crit on a 20 so 5%(even with a +25 if you get both flank and help you will be stuck with 5%)
34 With a +24 to hit you only crit on a 20 5% too(With a +25 from help you can crit on a 19 too, and finally with flank you can probably get to crit on a 17 what is pretty good)
33 With a 24 to hit you crit on a 10%( with +24 you get 15%, and with flank 25%)
31 This one is quite easy to crit so no need to calculate it.


Thanks, this is one area (besides Trip) where the Scythe is better than the Greatsword (Gorum). Would a boss fight at level 12 be against a monster usually with an AC of 34? Or 37?


Atalius wrote:
Anyone know the likelyhood of criting at level 12 with a +24 to attack roll Vs a monster one level higher than me? Trying to calculate how likely the Scythe D10 Deadly would work. Thanks for your help.

Average AC is 34, so you've got a 55% chance to hit and a 5% chance to crit, both which would go up linearly with any improvements (natural 20 is exactly +10). Suggestions for heroism and flanking are good ones.


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Atalius wrote:
Thanks, this is one area (besides Trip) where the Scythe is better than the Greatsword (Gorum). Would a boss fight at level 12 be against a monster usually with an AC of 34? Or 37?

Depends a lot on the boss... And i would suggest that when fighting a boss the tact is completely different. When fighting a boss as a cleric it's better to buff off your friends and let them handle the blunt of the fight. Using your debuffs mid fight and attacking once maybe twice per turn, you will be doing a lot more damage that way. Maybe using some of your powers to take a hit or casting in front of it to take the opportunity attack first.

So using trip instead to try and get his AC lower is actually better than counting on a crit with the scythe or even doing damage with the greasword.


oholoko wrote:
Atalius wrote:
Thanks, this is one area (besides Trip) where the Scythe is better than the Greatsword (Gorum). Would a boss fight at level 12 be against a monster usually with an AC of 34? Or 37?

Depends a lot on the boss... And i would suggest that when fighting a boss the tact is completely different. When fighting a boss as a cleric it's better to buff off your friends and let them handle the blunt of the fight. Using your debuffs mid fight and attacking once maybe twice per turn, you will be doing a lot more damage that way. Maybe using some of your powers to take a hit or casting in front of it to take the opportunity attack first.

So using trip instead to try and get his AC lower is actually better than counting on a crit with the scythe or even doing damage with the greasword.

Ya good idea, I could Trip then when he tries to get up I get the AOO to try to Crit. Is the enemy still flat footed on his way up from prone?


I think so? But i am not sure.

"Trigger A creature within your reach uses a manipulate action or a move action, makes a ranged attack, or leaves a square during a move action it’s using."

With this trigger i would say it is before since you can disrupt an move action with a few feats so it would make no sense to be after.


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No, there is a specific rule stating that when move actions that don't leave the square (like standing) are finished before reactions they trigger.

From page 474:
"Move Actions That Trigger Reactions
Some reactions and free actions are triggered by a creature using an action with the move trait. The most notable example is Attack of Opportunity. Actions with the move trait can trigger reactions or free actions throughout the course of the distance traveled. Each time you exit a square (or move 5 feet if not using a grid) within a creature’s reach, your movement triggers those reactions and free actions (although no more than once per move action for a given reacting creature). If you use a move action but don’t move out of a square, the trigger instead happens at the end of that action or ability.Some actions, such as Step, specifically state they don’t trigger reactions or free actions based on movement."


Baarogue wrote:

Yeah there isn't really any way to keep the 16 Str at chargen unless you sacrifice Wis or Cha, neither of which would be my choice. The Str boost you get at level 5 puts you at the req for the heavier med armors, if you prefer them over scale mail.

That's quite an alpha strike if you can pull it off. Have you considered fitting Selective Energy (Cleric 6) in your build somewhere in case you wanted to take out a lot of minions without nuking your party, or are you solely single-target focused?

Indeed it is an alpha strike (15D10+6 damage). The fact that the Harms don't suffer MAP and the attack would be without penalty so the likelyhood of landing is not bad. Does the barbarian or Fighter have an alpha strike beyond this one?

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