Jump = Single Action Teleport?


Rules Discussion

Liberty's Edge

CRB wrote:

Jump

[one-action] somatic

Your legs surge with strength, ready to leap high and far. You jump 30 feet in any direction without touching the ground. You must land on a space of solid ground within 30 feet of you, or else you fall after using your next action.

Heightened (3rd) The range becomes touch, the target changes to one touched creature, and the duration becomes 1 minute, allowing the target to jump as described whenever it takes the Leap action.

I have players telling me this basically lets them jump 30’ in any direction, without any athletics check or height issue, in the same single somatic action. That’s how I read the spell too, although my mastery of the new system is still pretty lacking.

This seems ridiculously powerful; is jump really, for all intents and purposes, a level one, single-action, 30-foot teleport?

Weirdly, the heightened version seems correct as it says the creature should use the Jump Action.


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I wrote a longer post, but the forum ate it. Maybe because you edited your post to mention the heightened version? To be clear, that ought to be a supported action, and it's the forum's fault. (Really, my fault for not copying the post to the clipboard before submitting it)

Anyway, Jump is balanced on costing a first level spell slot: these aren't as easy to come by as in PF1: even a high level caster will still only typically have 3 of these at the end of their career.

Jump is less good than teleporting in the following ways
*)You can't go through barriers, including enemy creatures' spaces
*)You can't use it to escape a grab or an immobilizing effect
*)You'll be subjected to an enemy's Attack of Opportunity reaction, if it has one


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In the same way that Stride is a single action 25' teleport that doesn't even require a spell slot.

Liberty's Edge

It’s not a 1:1 comparison to teleport, but its really, really, really good — better than most other first level spells, if tactical positioning is something you value (which you should in Pathfinder). Its not like AOO’s are common in PF2, anyway.

It seems like an editing error to me, but if this is the intended function of the spell, then that’s good to know.

Liberty's Edge

swoosh wrote:
In the same way that Stride is a single action 25' teleport that doesn't even require a spell slot.

Last I checked, you can’t stride at faster-than-normal speed over difficult terrain, onto rooftops, over pits, etc.


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Doug Hahn wrote:

It’s not a 1:1 comparison to teleport, but its really, really, really good — better than most other first level spells, if tactical positioning is something you value (which you should in Pathfinder). Its not like AOO’s are common in PF2, anyway.

It seems like an editing error to me, but if this is the intended function of the spell, then that’s good to know.

I agree that it's a good spell. In fact, now that you've brought it to my attention I'll probably prepare it on my Druid once un-heightened Heal and/or Magic Fang become obsolete for him. But I believe the spell is correct as written. And if you really value battlefield mobility, the 3rd level heightening is *amazing*, even as a self-buff. For the cost of a one-action cast, you get a 30' "jump" speed that ignores many types of difficult terrain. Spring-attack, indeed.

As a total aside, another RPG system has an *actual* 30' teleport as a 2nd level spell with a low action cost, and also seems strong but balanced to me.


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Doug Hahn wrote:
swoosh wrote:
In the same way that Stride is a single action 25' teleport that doesn't even require a spell slot.
Last I checked, you can’t stride at faster-than-normal speed over difficult terrain, onto rooftops, over pits, etc.

Trained (or better) in Athletics, Assurance(Athletics) and Quick Jump will almost get you there at higher levels.

Liberty's Edge

Quote:
As a total aside, another RPG system has an *actual* 30' teleport as a 2nd level spell with a low action cost, and also seems strong but balanced to me.

Fair enough :) I was never a fan of that in 1e. I think its the single-action nature of 2e’s Jump thats throwing me off. Its just REALLY powerful.

More than that, though, I was concerned the spell is written wrong.

And yes, Athletics can get you there... at higher levels...with investment in the skill/ feats.


Doug Hahn wrote:
Quote:
As a total aside, another RPG system has an *actual* 30' teleport as a 2nd level spell with a low action cost, and also seems strong but balanced to me.

Fair enough :) I was never a fan of that in 1e. I think its the single-action nature of 2e’s Jump thats throwing me off. Its just REALLY powerful.

More than that, though, I was concerned the spell is written wrong.

And yes, Athletics can get you there... at higher levels...with investment in the skill/ feats.

You are reading the spell how I read it and I essentially agree that it is a really good spell, especially when you base speed is less than 30 feet. It is better at higher levels when you don't need your level 1 spells for other forms of more direct combat effectiveness. Once I hit level 7 or so, the spell gets a "ready every day" status from me (or always goes on my spell list for an arcane or primal sorceror). The level 3 version is similarly pretty cool in the later half of the game.


First World Bard wrote:


Jump is less good than teleporting in the following ways
*)You can't go through barriers, including enemy creatures' spaces
*)You can't use it to escape a grab or an immobilizing effect
*)You'll be subjected to an enemy's Attack of Opportunity reaction, if it has one

I think the first I do want to know where in the rules it says you can't jump over creatures, if you can somehow combine the long and high jump actions or whatever. This came up in a fight against Ghouls, who can jump half their move speed as a single action that doesn't provoke, and the GM had them leaping over characters and up on to a 10ft high roof, which made for a really cool dynamic combat but I'm not sure it was strictly correct by the rules.

I personally would allow the 5 feet to be interchangeable between vertical and horizontal movement, just because it makes it more fun, but still costs something, so for example you could clear a large creature, but you could only move 20 feet horizontally


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Doug Hahn wrote:
swoosh wrote:
In the same way that Stride is a single action 25' teleport that doesn't even require a spell slot.
Last I checked, you can’t stride at faster-than-normal speed over difficult terrain, onto rooftops, over pits, etc.

It is basically a spell that improves your Stride (only once for the lvl1 version) with a speed changed to 30ft, you can choose any direction (even upwards) and ignore ground based diffucult terrain and obstacles.

It SHOULD be better than a normal Stride since you burn a spell for it. It is useful and strong in the right circumstances but not overpowered, I think.


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ofMars wrote:


I think the first I do want to know where in the rules it says you can't jump over creatures, if you can somehow combine the long and high jump actions or whatever. This came up in a fight against Ghouls, who can jump half their move speed as a single action that doesn't provoke, and the GM had them leaping over characters and up on to a 10ft high roof, which made for a really cool dynamic combat but I'm not sure it was strictly correct by the rules.

I personally would allow the 5 feet to be interchangeable between vertical and horizontal movement, just because it makes it more fun, but still costs something, so for example you could clear a large creature, but you could only move 20 feet horizontally

Oh sure you can absolutely jump *over* monsters, but that means you aren't going horizontally the full 30 foot distance. I'd probably count the distance back down to ground in the 30 feet though; otherwise you'd fall from however high you jumped. But if you have Acrobatics and Cat Fall, you may not care.

Edit: To be clear, I'd find jumping over a Large enemy with the Jump spell to be fairly difficult if you want to get back on the ground without falling at the end. But jumping over Medium and smaller enemies should be pretty easy to do.


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First World Bard wrote:
Edit: To be clear, I'd find jumping over a Large enemy with the Jump spell to be fairly difficult if you want to get back on the ground without falling at the end. But jumping over Medium and smaller enemies should be pretty easy to do.

Well if it follows the rules of physics then jumping 30 feet (maximum distance at an angle of 45°) will let you clear 15 feet of height in the middle of your jump (that is after 15 feet). So if you start 10 feet away from a large creature it is not unreasonable to assume you will be able to jump over it.


Ubertron_X wrote:
Well if it follows the rules of physics...

It's a magic spell, so it doesn't :)


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My suspicion on how it should be run (not saying I'm right) is the following:
It's basically like a 30ft fly speed that can be used once per round and doesn't require additional movement to move directly vertical, nor does it gain bonus movement for going down.

You physically traverse the intervening distance, so anything that would happen if you flew that path should still happen.

How do you jump around corner? I dunno. It's magic.

This seems like the most reasonable interpretation to me of how the spell is presented in the rules.


This is an interesting topic with lots of possibilities for sure.

I'd be inclined to allow jumping over creatures as long as there's lots of vertical space and they're not too huge. Probably wouldn't let someone jump around a corner.


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Claxon wrote:

My suspicion on how it should be run (not saying I'm right) is the following:

It's basically like a 30ft fly speed that can be used once per round and doesn't require additional movement to move directly vertical, nor does it gain bonus movement for going down.

You physically traverse the intervening distance, so anything that would happen if you flew that path should still happen.

How do you jump around corner? I dunno. It's magic.

This seems like the most reasonable interpretation to me of how the spell is presented in the rules.

I see no reason to believe that this spell would let you jump around corners, but the rest makes sense.


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as far as i can tell, you move 30 feet(or shorter) in a straight line in any direction that isn't blocked by something and then if you're in the air, you remain so until the end of your next action.


Claxon wrote:
How do you jump around corner? I dunno. It's magic.

It's like a Quake rocket jump, you can control it midair.

I agree with the straight line interpretation. Although I would probably allow an arc shape instead to jump over a creature. Something like, straight line, but also with diagonal movement up and down counted in, decreasing horizontal distance.


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Ubertron_X wrote:
First World Bard wrote:
Edit: To be clear, I'd find jumping over a Large enemy with the Jump spell to be fairly difficult if you want to get back on the ground without falling at the end. But jumping over Medium and smaller enemies should be pretty easy to do.
Well if it follows the rules of physics then jumping 30 feet (maximum distance at an angle of 45°) will let you clear 15 feet of height in the middle of your jump (that is after 15 feet). So if you start 10 feet away from a large creature it is not unreasonable to assume you will be able to jump over it.

By the laws of physics your maximum height for a 45 degree angle would be 7.5 feet, not 15 feet. (Ignoring details like air friction.) You move in a parabolic path, not a circular one. You could twist your body like high jumpers do to get past a slightly higher obstacle, but 15 feet is unreachable.

Scarab Sages

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I played a cleric/monk up to level 5 in Age of Ashes and Jump was literally the only spell I prepared in my 1st level slots because it was really quite versatile. If you jump straight forwards, you just "Strided" faster than a human, I used it to jump over a gust of wind, increase the reach of water from a bucket, and to start an encounter earlier than intended. It's a really fun spell.

In addition, I want to point out a key, but honestly insane point about the jump spell. "You must land on a space of solid ground within 30 feet of you, or else you fall after using your next action."

Why is this crazy? Because if you cast jump multiple times in a row, you can wall jump. Technically, you could simply air jump, arguing that its magic and you meet all the conditions to cast the spell, but there is a good argument against this simply by stating that this is transmutation magic, so it simply alters already possible physics.

As stated above, just because its a 1st level spell, doesn't mean you can afford to spam your slots, you really don't get too many slots of 1st level as you level up, but if someone wants to burn 3 jumps (and all their slots) consecutively, it could be a really niche, but amazing turn.


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zer0darkfire wrote:
In addition, I want to point out a key, but honestly insane point about the jump spell. "You must land on a space of solid ground within 30 feet of you, or else you fall after using your next action."

I think, at best, you could use it twice before falling prone. It says "after using your next action." If you next action is casting Jump, you fall prone immediately after completing that action. There's nothing that indicates a second casting of the spell delays the "fall prone" timing of the first casting.

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I think the second casting would override the firsts "fall after next action" since the next action prevents you from immediately falling with the same line. I know this isn't a card game, but in most games, you resolve chains in reverse order, so the second and third jump spell checks would happen before the firsts.

If the implications of what you're saying are true, that means if your next action is to cast fly, you'd still fall because you haven't met jumps condition of finding solid ground to stop on.


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Yeah, you have to take into account what that "next action" is. What if it is grabbing a chandelier or a rope?

Whatever it is would need to be a single action though, imo, so casting Fly wouldn't be an option. And I probably wouldn't allow chain air-jumping, since the need to land on solid ground seems to indicate an intent for jumps to go between places one would normally expect a mundane "jump" to work, just magically farther.


I dunno, costing a a 1st level slot to double or triple jump seems cool and relatively balanced, but I guess it has game breaking consequences for the heightened version


zer0darkfire wrote:

I think the second casting would override the firsts "fall after next action" since the next action prevents you from immediately falling with the same line. I know this isn't a card game, but in most games, you resolve chains in reverse order, so the second and third jump spell checks would happen before the firsts.

If the implications of what you're saying are true, that means if your next action is to cast fly, you'd still fall because you haven't met jumps condition of finding solid ground to stop on.

I have to disagree. PF2e has no system for action stacking and reverse resolution. We only do exactly what we are told to do by the rules.

If you cast Jump, regardless of what your next action is, you fall after completing it, unless that next action specifically provides a protection from from falling.

So, yes, if you Jump, fail to land in an appropriate spot, and then cast Fly, you still fall. But, since you have a Fly speed while under the effects of the Fly spell, you could use a subsequent action to use the Arrest a Fall action.


Here's a somewhat related question. Is the heightened level 3 version affected by the various Leap feats (as well as class feats which affect or use the Leap action).

Does Powerful Leap essentially change the distance you go when under the effects of jump and take the Leap action increase it to 35 feet?

Can you use the 30 foot jump distance as part of a fighter's Sudden Leap? If so, do you fall immediately after the strike (using the feat's rules) or do you fall after your next action (using the spell's rules) and allowing a 2nd strike for example. Do you somehow increase your maximum distance of your jump to double your speed (using the feat's rules) or just use the spell's rules and go 30 feet?

Does a character with wall jump feat allow you to jump with the spell, jump with the spell to a wall, and then wall jump up a 3rd time using the rules of the feat?


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Saldiven wrote:
zer0darkfire wrote:

I think the second casting would override the firsts "fall after next action" since the next action prevents you from immediately falling with the same line. I know this isn't a card game, but in most games, you resolve chains in reverse order, so the second and third jump spell checks would happen before the firsts.

If the implications of what you're saying are true, that means if your next action is to cast fly, you'd still fall because you haven't met jumps condition of finding solid ground to stop on.

I have to disagree. PF2e has no system for action stacking and reverse resolution. We only do exactly what we are told to do by the rules.

If you cast Jump, regardless of what your next action is, you fall after completing it, unless that next action specifically provides a protection from from falling.

So, yes, if you Jump, fail to land in an appropriate spot, and then cast Fly, you still fall. But, since you have a Fly speed while under the effects of the Fly spell, you could use a subsequent action to use the Arrest a Fall action.

I very much disagree with this being RAW or RAI.

it's written in the way that most easily saves space, but doesn't say anything about forcing you to fall regardless of any other effects.

if you're being forcefully levitated, you cannot use this to negate the hostile effect and land back on the ground.

english is filled with subtext because being overly verbose is tiring.

"You must land on a space of solid ground within 30 feet of you, or else you fall after using your next action."

should more or less at most verbose probably read like this

"You must land on a space of solid ground(i.e. anything that can hold you weight, not just dirt) within 30 feet of you, or else you fall as normal after using your next action."

if falling is not normal for your current situation you continue doing whatever is normal. if you jump to a 2 foot wide plank of wood(ground this is not solid) you don't immediately fall off the plank, but must make an acrobatics check to stay atop it(as normal).

and so if you use jumps in a row, you would fall except your next jump is still waiting for you to perform your next action and is momentarily preventing you from falling.


ofMars wrote:
I dunno, costing a a 1st level slot to double or triple jump seems cool and relatively balanced, but I guess it has game breaking consequences for the heightened version

I wouldn't say that. It's a good spell, yes, but probably not game-breaking.

There's a pretty broad 'usefulness' spectrum to spells of a given level. Jump may be at the high end of that spectrum, whereas other spells like Item Facade or Negate Aroma are so niche that I can't imagine anyone preparing them almost ever.

Scarab Sages

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Bandw2 wrote:
Saldiven wrote:
zer0darkfire wrote:

I think the second casting would override the firsts "fall after next action" since the next action prevents you from immediately falling with the same line. I know this isn't a card game, but in most games, you resolve chains in reverse order, so the second and third jump spell checks would happen before the firsts.

If the implications of what you're saying are true, that means if your next action is to cast fly, you'd still fall because you haven't met jumps condition of finding solid ground to stop on.

I have to disagree. PF2e has no system for action stacking and reverse resolution. We only do exactly what we are told to do by the rules.

If you cast Jump, regardless of what your next action is, you fall after completing it, unless that next action specifically provides a protection from from falling.

So, yes, if you Jump, fail to land in an appropriate spot, and then cast Fly, you still fall. But, since you have a Fly speed while under the effects of the Fly spell, you could use a subsequent action to use the Arrest a Fall action.

I very much disagree with this being RAW or RAI.

it's written in the way that most easily saves space, but doesn't say anything about forcing you to fall regardless of any other effects.

if you're being forcefully levitated, you cannot use this to negate the hostile effect and land back on the ground.

english is filled with subtext because being overly verbose is tiring.

"You must land on a space of solid ground within 30 feet of you, or else you fall after using your next action."

should more or less at most verbose probably read like this

"You must land on a space of solid ground(i.e. anything that can hold you weight, not just dirt) within 30 feet of you, or else you fall as normal after using your next action."

if falling is not normal for your current situation you continue doing whatever is normal. if you jump to a 2 foot wide plank of wood(ground this is not solid) you don't...

Yep, thats what I was saying. The next jump spell also prevents you from falling because your currently jumping with it.


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Wait, are we suggesting that you cast the Jump spell multiple times in consecutive actions (perhaps by using the heightened to 3rd level casting) to perform a video-game style double/triple jump?

Scarab Sages

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First World Bard wrote:
Wait, are we suggesting that you cast the Jump spell multiple times in consecutive actions (perhaps by using the heightened to 3rd level casting) to perform a video-game style double/triple jump?

Yes, yes we are. By RAW it can do exactly that, however it's pretty easy for a GM to say that because it's transmutation magic, it isn't capable of allowing such actions, like air (double) jumping that disregard physics to that degree. However, wall jumping is definitely acceptable as an option because there is literally a wall jump feat in the game already.


zer0darkfire wrote:
First World Bard wrote:
Wait, are we suggesting that you cast the Jump spell multiple times in consecutive actions (perhaps by using the heightened to 3rd level casting) to perform a video-game style double/triple jump?
Yes, yes we are. By RAW it can do exactly that, however it's pretty easy for a GM to say that because it's transmutation magic, it isn't capable of allowing such actions, like air (double) jumping that disregard physics to that degree. However, wall jumping is definitely acceptable as an option because there is literally a wall jump feat in the game already.

I think you may be onto something. I'm surprised at how much I'm picking up from these forums.

Scarab Sages

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Yeah, seriously, I think Jump might be one of the best 1st level spells in the game for a non DC focused caster. For example, my cleric/monk only had 10 wisdom (16 charisma), and used the divine list, but really wanted to get into melee to punch people. This spell was great at getting into melee range in weird places or generally quickly. In addition, you can jump (up to two times) and then grapple a creature before you would "fall", keeping you from falling while doing some...weird things to a flying creature.


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Hmm, interesting spell, I hadn't looked into that before. The way it's written does make me wonder if it wasn't actually intended to be more like a preparatory spell: you cast it to be able to use your NEXT action to do something extra-ordinary, like jump 30'. Since that would take two actions to first cast and then jump it would make the spell considerably less powerful and much more in line with the power balance of say the spell "true strike", which is also 1 action to prepare an "improved" second action.

The spell description even talks about the spell causing you to "get ready to leap". And the whole falling after the next action bit makes much more sense if the next action referred to were the actual jump action.

I agree that with the 2nd sentence as it currently stands I'd read it to include the jump action for now, but the comparison to true strike was the first thing that came to mind and I totally wouldn't be surprised if not including the jump was intended (or maybe at least originally intended). It does seem somewhat OP for a 1-action 1st level spell the way it stands right now, and must-have spells were something they were trying to get away from...

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