CotCT - Blackjack Role


Rules Questions and Gameplay Discussion


Only just realised that we have probably messed up on a couple of things and I don't think there is any FAQ for it so if I may just check with all you gurus please?

1) It is selected as a role card just like any other and like it has been done in previous sets with other "special" roles from adventures. You do not select a "normal" role for your character and then in addition add on the Blackjack powers as well.

The Title side of Blackjack "adds to...rather than replacing" and the +1, +2 Hand size boxes tricked us (normally hand size is just another box on the role cards). Thought this was something new and different to make it stand out from previous sets. But it makes sense now after re-reading it several times.

2) If you do select the Blackjack Role, if you add any Blackjack cards (the 3 Loot cards), they are just added to your deck as extra cards and do not count to your type limits. So if you add the 2 Loot Weapons and you already had say 2 weapons max, you would now have 4 weapons (any 2 from normal game play plus the 2 Blackjack ones).

This is correct isn't it?


Droideka wrote:

1) It is selected as a role card just like any other and like it has been done in previous sets with other "special" roles from adventures. You do not select a "normal" role for your character and then in addition add on the Blackjack powers as well.

The Title side of Blackjack "adds to...rather than replacing" and the +1, +2 Hand size boxes tricked us (normally hand size is just another box on the role cards). Thought this was something new and different to make it stand out from previous sets. But it makes sense now after re-reading it several times.

Correct. Technically; after you earn a role card your regular character card usually becomes completely ignored (you physically should place your Role card over the top of your Character powers, check off the power feats you've already earned, then never touch your character card again). This means that when you earn a 'special' Role card, like the Ghost Wizard in S&S or the Spinel Sage in Season 3 (Organized Play), you lose all of your inherent character powers, including your Hand Size and proficiencies.

Blackjack is different to all other Roles in that it has special rules that says that you do not ignore your normal character powers. However, the Blackjack reward does state that you are replacing your original role, and you can't have 2 role cards simultaneously anyway - so ignore your normal character's roles.

Droideka wrote:

2) If you do select the Blackjack Role, if you add any Blackjack cards (the 3 Loot cards), they are just added to your deck as extra cards and do not count to your type limits. So if you add the 2 Loot Weapons and you already had say 2 weapons max, you would now have 4 weapons (any 2 from normal game play plus the 2 Blackjack ones).

This is correct isn't it?

Correct!


Thank you :)


Silly question: Does it actually say anywhere that you cannot have more than one Role card? I'm not advocating that we should, just that this may be something which we all assumed must be true but isn't actually in the rules anywhere.

For example, what happens in the "Extended Campaign" where you play DD first, gain a Role card there, and then carry your character over to CoCT? I assume that when you are rewarded with a Role card then most characters simply ignore the reward (since they already have a Role), though one player may replace (not add to) their existing Role with the Blackjack (what happens to any Feat points spent on the old Role?). I'm not sure that this is actually spelled out as being correct anywhere.


I guess you could argue that you could read the rules as you can get another "Role card" award and use it to do a SWAPing-like of role card. Because as Yewstance cleverly reminds us, a role card is physically placed over your previous Character powers, you then check off the power feats you've already earned, then never touch the cards below again.

I can see how you could this way potentially in that way abuse a bit the system by transferring powers won (like hand size) from your previous role card, but any power previously won in the previous role card and not prsent in the new one is lost anyway.

However my reading of the Core Rule p. 20 is that "Whenever
you play that character, place the same side of your role card directly
over the Powers section of your character..." implies there is only one role card in effect (unless there is a specific exception rule which is the case for the Blackjack), especially as "directly over the Powers section of your character" becomes an impossible rule if there is already one and we all know we should ignore impossible rules. IMHO.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

Sathar wrote:

Silly question: Does it actually say anywhere that you cannot have more than one Role card? I'm not advocating that we should, just that this may be something which we all assumed must be true but isn't actually in the rules anywhere.

For example, what happens in the "Extended Campaign" where you play DD first, gain a Role card there, and then carry your character over to CoCT? I assume that when you are rewarded with a Role card then most characters simply ignore the reward (since they already have a Role), though one player may replace (not add to) their existing Role with the Blackjack (what happens to any Feat points spent on the old Role?). I'm not sure that this is actually spelled out as being correct anywhere.

We've been having a discussion about that. I'm not yet convinced where the fix belongs or how it should be worded, but the upshot is this:

If you played a DD character that was rewarded with a role card, then took that character into Crimson Throne, the "standard" role card reward for 3A does nothing for you.

If you take on the Blackjack role, though, you get to transfer the same number of power feats that you had on your old role card minus the number that you had on your old character card to your character. (So if your character had 2 power feats checked on their character card, then received their initial role, then gained 3 more power feats on their role card, then earned the Blackjack role, they'd have 2 power feats on their character card and add 3 more power feats across their character card and the Blackjack role card.


Thank you, Vic, for clarification and looking into Blackjack role. As to your proposed option for changing role from DD into Blackjack - what if, for example, someone took a role and checked only the power feat(s) that is(are) already present on the character card and did not check anything from the role card? I did that strange thing with Core_Seelah ;)
Should we still be able to just "redistribute" them?


Jenceslav wrote:

Thank you, Vic, for clarification and looking into Blackjack role. As to your proposed option for changing role from DD into Blackjack - what if, for example, someone took a role and checked only the power feat(s) that is(are) already present on the character card and did not check anything from the role card? I did that strange thing with Core_Seelah ;)

Should we still be able to just "redistribute" them?

You get to redistribute any power feats you earned after your Role - whether or not they also exist on your initial character card as well.

To clarify in-depth...

Once you earn your Role card you check all of the power feats you've already earned off on your chosen Role, then all future power feats you earn are exclusively checked off on the Role card.

If you mark off two powers on Seelah's character card, earn one of her roles and then mark another power off (that existed on her original character card), then she still only has 2 powers marked on her character card and she has three powers in total marked off on her role.

So in this case, if you then took the Blackjack role, you would get to redistribute any power feats that you applied to your role card, whether or not they also exist on your old character card. Your original 2 power feats will be untouched, but you can redistribute the third one onto your character card (potentially marking off the same power, in this case) or onto the Blackjack role as you see fit.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

Yep.


OK, thank you for detailed analysis, Yewstance, and confirmation, Vic. I just wasn't sure, if that was the intent :) Now I am.

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