Lost Omens Character Guide discussion thread!


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Since subscribers should start getting theirs fairly soon!


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keftiu wrote:
Since subscribers should start getting theirs fairly soon!

Quick thoughts,

I thought there would be more stuff on the organizations. The ancestry stuff is okay. The headshot art running down the side in the book is a really nice touch.

I hate just about everything concerning the Firebrands. Except the art on page 64.

Hellknights are cool. From reading it, I got the impression that the Hellknights are being presented as an organization that just goes around enforcing laws because they like it and stuff, and I didn't see a lot of information about how they pay for all this. They're still largely mercenary, aren't they?

Knights of Lastwall are okay, and I'm only a little annoyed that the Crimson Reclaimers have Chaotic Good listed as their majority alignment. They accept any non evil, so its a minor thing to be annoyed about.

Halcyon spells look interesting, but I haven't taken time to read or digest that.

Didn't even read the section on the Pathfinder Society. Sorry.


How do the three Ancestries look?


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Pepsi Jedi wrote:
How do the three Ancestries look?

Hobgoblins are tough, good at fear, and fighting. The most interesting racial feat to me is one that causes mental damage when a foe you feared is still fighting you.

Leshies are...well plant people. And the art creeps me out. I skimmed their section. Fungus Leshies get Darkvision, Leaf leshies are immune to falling damage, Gourd leshies have backpacks in their heads.

There's a racial feat at 9 that lets them heal from standing in the Sun.

Lizardfolk are interesting. Five varieties to choose from. A few interesting feats, like "Parthenogenic Hatchling" which says "You were hatched from an unfertilized egg during hard times for your people, and you are a biological copy of your mother." It gives bonuses to saves and surviving without food.

Good overall feat support for their natural weapons and a few other tricks.

Aasimars, Catfolk, Changelings, Geniekin, and Tieflings are mentioned and get art, but no stats.


Kasoh wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:
How do the three Ancestries look?

Hobgoblins are tough, good at fear, and fighting. The most interesting racial feat to me is one that causes mental damage when a foe you feared is still fighting you.

Leshies are...well plant people. And the art creeps me out. I skimmed their section. Fungus Leshies get Darkvision, Leaf leshies are immune to falling damage, Gourd leshies have backpacks in their heads.

There's a racial feat at 9 that lets them heal from standing in the Sun.

Lizardfolk are interesting. Five varieties to choose from. A few interesting feats, like "Parthenogenic Hatchling" which says "You were hatched from an unfertilized egg during hard times for your people, and you are a biological copy of your mother." It gives bonuses to saves and surviving without food.

Good overall feat support for their natural weapons and a few other tricks.

Aasimars, Catfolk, Changelings, Geniekin, and Tieflings are mentioned and get art, but no stats.

Ahhh thank you very much. Yeah Cats are supposed to be in the APG, and I think (I could be wrong) That they're doing Assimar's as a heritage. I'm pretty sure they are doing Tieflings as a heritage.

But thank you. I look forward to this book.


What are the archetypes like for Pathfinders, if you don't mind skimming? Got a player considering joining the Pathfinders, wanna know if they'd be usable.


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Bramble Knight wrote:
What are the archetypes like for Pathfinders, if you don't mind skimming? Got a player considering joining the Pathfinders, wanna know if they'd be usable.

4 new feats for the Pathfinder Agent archetype in the Lost Omens World Guide, and the new archetypes that have predecessors have text that says "Qualifying characters with the Pathfinder agent archetype (Lost Omens World Guide 23) can select one of these dedication feats even if they have not gained three feats from the Pathfinder agent archetype, and each of these archetypes’ feats fulfills the Pathfinder Agent Dedication’s special requirement despite not being from the Pathfinder agent archetype." Which means, the new dedication archetypes can be built out of the previous ones without having to go super deep into them, which is nice.

Scrollmaster is...odd. The dedication feat lets you recall things you've heard or read in the past 24 hours. "For 24 hours after learning a prominent fact—such as the name of an NPC you have met, the details of your mission briefing, and similar information—you can recall it without attempting a check, though this doesn’t allow you to automatically memorize long strings of numbers or text." It also provides numerical bonuses to recalling information about the adventure.

I have never played or GM'd a game where that information was behind a check simply because the player of a character didn't remember it. Still, good insurance for GMs who are fond of saying "If you don't remember, your character doesn't remember."

The rest of the feats help with recall knowledge, interpreting languages, and deciphering writing.

Spellmaster dedication lets anyone pick up Conceal Spell at level 8 with 'Surreptitious Spellcaster' Other feats give bonuses to saves against enemy spells or versus a specific tradition.

The coolest one is Absorb Spell, level 14 feat. When you crit succeed against an enemy spell, you can cast it back within 10 minutes or so.

Swordmaster dedication gives bonuses against Disarm and aiding allies. You can get a press attack that penalizes speed (10), intercept a Crit (12), or gain Temp HP when you would be reduced to zero HP(14).

Spellmaster looks the most interesting, I guess but they all have some utility. But I can't say if they're good or not in comparison to taking your main class feats.


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Any interesting stuff, mechanical or otherwise, about the various ethnicities? Especially curious about any Mwangi ones, like the Taralu and M’beke dwarves.


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Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
keftiu wrote:
Any interesting stuff, mechanical or otherwise, about the various ethnicities? Especially curious about any Mwangi ones, like the Taralu and M’beke dwarves.

There are 3 new dwarf heritages. Not a lot of wordcount on the Mbe'ke and Taralu. They get a paragraph and a sidebar. There is neat art of a Taralu dwarf.

Racial feats have prereqs like "Surface Dwarf" or "any Mountain Dwarf ethnicity" so there is some interesting granulation going on there.

Every section on the ancestry does mention various places on Golarion where the ancestry shows up and a bit of specifics about that region's culture.


Kasoh wrote:

Lizardfolk are interesting. Five varieties to choose from. A few interesting feats, like "Parthenogenic Hatchling" which says "You were hatched from an unfertilized egg during hard times for your people, and you are a biological copy of your mother." It gives bonuses to saves and surviving without food.

Good overall feat support for their natural weapons and a few other tricks.

Five varieties sounds awesome!


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Am I missing something, are does the seedpod leshy feat not have a range for the weapon?

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber

Should probably be 30ft. as that is the range of seedpod attacks in the bestiary.

Grand Lodge

I finally got my copy today and have gotten through the ancestry and heritage section. Really liking what I see so far, but I think the Hobgoblin is missing a feat (or one was renamed).

The Onyx Vault sidebar on p.50 makes reference to an ancestry feat called Legion Recruit and there's nothing by that name in the listing of the ancestry feats...

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Kasoh wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:
How do the three Ancestries look?

Hobgoblins are tough, good at fear, and fighting. The most interesting racial feat to me is one that causes mental damage when a foe you feared is still fighting you.

Leshies are...well plant people. And the art creeps me out. I skimmed their section. Fungus Leshies get Darkvision, Leaf leshies are immune to falling damage, Gourd leshies have backpacks in their heads.

There's a racial feat at 9 that lets them heal from standing in the Sun.

Lizardfolk are interesting. Five varieties to choose from. A few interesting feats, like "Parthenogenic Hatchling" which says "You were hatched from an unfertilized egg during hard times for your people, and you are a biological copy of your mother." It gives bonuses to saves and surviving without food.

Good overall feat support for their natural weapons and a few other tricks.

Aasimars, Catfolk, Changelings, Geniekin, and Tieflings are mentioned and get art, but no stats.

there is also a picture of what appears to be an android in the lastwall section :)


Got a link to that image??


jimthegray wrote:
Kasoh wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:
How do the three Ancestries look?

Hobgoblins are tough, good at fear, and fighting. The most interesting racial feat to me is one that causes mental damage when a foe you feared is still fighting you.

Leshies are...well plant people. And the art creeps me out. I skimmed their section. Fungus Leshies get Darkvision, Leaf leshies are immune to falling damage, Gourd leshies have backpacks in their heads.

There's a racial feat at 9 that lets them heal from standing in the Sun.

Lizardfolk are interesting. Five varieties to choose from. A few interesting feats, like "Parthenogenic Hatchling" which says "You were hatched from an unfertilized egg during hard times for your people, and you are a biological copy of your mother." It gives bonuses to saves and surviving without food.

Good overall feat support for their natural weapons and a few other tricks.

Aasimars, Catfolk, Changelings, Geniekin, and Tieflings are mentioned and get art, but no stats.

there is also a picture of what appears to be an android in the lastwall section :)

Where? I’m looking now.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
keftiu wrote:
jimthegray wrote:
Kasoh wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:
How do the three Ancestries look?

Hobgoblins are tough, good at fear, and fighting. The most interesting racial feat to me is one that causes mental damage when a foe you feared is still fighting you.

Leshies are...well plant people. And the art creeps me out. I skimmed their section. Fungus Leshies get Darkvision, Leaf leshies are immune to falling damage, Gourd leshies have backpacks in their heads.

There's a racial feat at 9 that lets them heal from standing in the Sun.

Lizardfolk are interesting. Five varieties to choose from. A few interesting feats, like "Parthenogenic Hatchling" which says "You were hatched from an unfertilized egg during hard times for your people, and you are a biological copy of your mother." It gives bonuses to saves and surviving without food.

Good overall feat support for their natural weapons and a few other tricks.

Aasimars, Catfolk, Changelings, Geniekin, and Tieflings are mentioned and get art, but no stats.

there is also a picture of what appears to be an android in the lastwall section :)
Where? I’m looking now.

I think it's the Lastwall Cleric. I interpreted that as being an undead cleric, either part of the Crimson Reclaimers or wearing Sinister Kngiht armour.

It could be the knight with bluehair in the picture on page 89. The rest don't seem particularly androidy

Grand Lodge

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I can confirm that the blue-haired woman, at least, is not an android. ^_^

Shadow Lodge

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Kasoh wrote:
I hate just about everything concerning the Firebrands.

Me too.


Are the firebrands the heirs of the Silver Ravens?

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

In a sense yes, they’re various collections of rebel groups that have joined together in various ways.

The Silver Raves are still around, they just operate out of Kintargo.

Shadow Lodge

Rysky wrote:
In a sense yes, they’re various collections of rebel groups that have joined together in various ways.

At best it's a front for the national foreign policies of Ravounel and Vidrian much like the Eagle Knights are overtly an arm of the Andoran military. And apart from that it's tolerant of all manner of dilletantish hangers-on who latch onto the organization for their own self-aggrandizement with no intention of furthering its goals.

Liberty's Edge

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I mean, Ravounel and Vidrian are certainly the primary nations supporting the Firebrands, and I imagine they seldom go directly against those countries interests, but per the book's own text, they were originally composed of those who "found a shared passion for combating oppression and helping those unable to defend themselves." That indicates pretty clearly that they aren't solely gonna look out for those two nations interests.

You're, of course, quite right that they're tolerant of dilettantes and hangers on who are using the organization for selfish reasons...but that started as an accident, and is potentially a solid strategic move at this point. The dilettantes create real logistical support bases for themselves, which serious Firebrands can then access at need, after all, and more importantly, they draw attention to themselves and serve as a cover and distraction for serious Firebrand activities.

Being underestimated is a powerful tool, and having the most visible Firebrands be someone that, say, Cheliax's intelligence operatives can't take seriously seems handy in helping that to happen.

Shadow Lodge

Deadmanwalking wrote:
I mean, Ravounel and Vidrian are certainly the primary nations supporting the Firebrands, and I imagine they seldom go directly against those countries interests, but per the book's own text, they were originally composed of those who "found a shared passion for combating oppression and helping those unable to defend themselves."

Wrong book. That's LOWG, not LOCG. The latter is more detailed, and explicitly says that the emissaries to Ravounel were government agents, not merely members of the ruling party (political parties not really being a thing in the setting - even democracies are monolithic as presented). And those emissaries were sent specifically to seek state military alliances. Given that, their organization's interventions in other countries' politics will be first and foremost to protect their patrons and only secondarily responsible to local concerns.

Quote:
The dilettantes create real logistical support bases for themselves, which serious Firebrands can then access at need, after all, and more importantly, they draw attention to themselves and serve as a cover and distraction for serious Firebrand activities.

Not only do the dilletantes cheapen the whole enterprise, they are dangerous to anyone whose support they might attract, because they don't take it seriously. They'll be inclined to recklessness, adventurism, and glory-seeking over and above building a durable organization, and that will get their followers hurt or killed. Not only that, by doing so they'll have muddied the name Firebrand among the survivors, and make serious members' work harder.

Liberty's Edge

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zimmerwald1915 wrote:
Wrong book. That's LOWG, not LOCG. The latter is more detailed, and explicitly says that the emissaries to Ravounel were government agents, not merely members of the ruling party (political parties not really being a thing in the setting - even democracies are monolithic as presented). And those emissaries were sent specifically to seek state military alliances. Given that, their organization's interventions in other countries' politics will be first and foremost to protect their patrons and only secondarily responsible to local concerns.

Nope. That quote if from the LOCG right where they talk about the founding of the Firebrands.

Yes, the people in question were government agents, and they made a (quite public) government deal (a military alliance between their two nations). Then, they (or at least some of them) "found a shared passion for combating oppression and helping those unable to defend themselves." And decided to form the Firebrands.

Just because someone is a government employee does not mean that everything they do is representative of that government, and especially in a new regime that they helped form via revolution I'm not at all surprised that some of the 'government agents' might put their personal principles over the interests of said government, or might not leave government service to pursue other projects.

Basically, government agents are, in fact, people, and capable of engaging in acts that are not representative of their government.

zimmerwald1915 wrote:
Not only do the dilletantes cheapen the whole enterprise, they are dangerous to anyone whose support they might attract, because they don't take it seriously. They'll be inclined to recklessness, adventurism, and glory-seeking over and above building a durable organization, and that will get their followers hurt or killed. Not only that, by doing so they'll have muddied the name Firebrand among the survivors, and make serious members' work harder.

Very possible. Those are real potential downsides of the current arrangement (though I don't think they're inevitable, depending on percentage of glory seekers vs. serious revolutionaries and how much care the serious revolutionaries take). But there are also the upsides I noted, and it's a very new and loosely organized group. Perhaps in a few years they'll reach this conclusion and do something about it if it does, in fact, go badly. The fact that they haven't yet is unsurprising given their current very short lifespan as an organization (I think we're at the three year mark) combined with the aforementioned very loose ties between specific groups of Firebrands.

Frankly, the idea of an individual or cell of Firebrands who decide this is an issue and go around cleaning up messes caused by dilettantes and removing Firebrands they think are less than legitimate sounds like an awesome concept for a PC group and game.


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Terevalis Unctio of House Mysti wrote:
Are the firebrands the heirs of the Silver Ravens?

Depends on the Silver Ravens. The ones I GM'd were way too nationalistic to ever export their brand of rebellion. They became a paramilitary soft power in Ravounel.

But that's a problem I have to solve at my table and irrelevant to the printed material. According to the book, some Silver Ravens and others decided to do this. How legitimate their claim to the Silver Ravens is going to be up to any one table. By default, I presume they are at least somewhat.

Deadmanwalking said wrote:
Basically, government agents are, in fact, people, and capable of engaging in acts that are not representative of their government.

Depending on the severity of their acts not representative of their government, they might not remain government agents for long.

My largest problem with the organization is calling it an organization. The Firebrands are, at best, a movement. At worst, they're terrorists and rabble rousers.

The idea that they can accomplish anything with their current structure is laughable. They probably spend as much time fixing their reputation after bad actors tarnish it as they do trying to liberate people. Except that there is no central organization by which to direct these actions, so there's no consistency to their behavior.

Which might be exactly what the designers were aiming for in a CG organization, but I read that chapter and rolled my eyes a lot. I'm also annoyed at the Crimson Reclaimers also being predominately CG, so I do admit a bias against the Chaos spectrum.

But, at least we have a 'cool and hip' Chaotic organization for people to claim allegiance to. I can't wait for the Caydenite Firebrand Adventurer. /s

Liberty's Edge

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Kasoh wrote:
Depending on the severity of their acts not representative of their government, they might not remain government agents for long.

Sure. Assuming the government doesn't approve, anyway. But sure. Some Firebrands being ex-agents of Vidrian and Ravounel (though likely with friends still on the inside) seems entirely on-theme. Others will be current agents and have to balance their government's agenda with the Firebrand cause. That also seems very on-theme.

Kasoh wrote:
My largest problem with the organization is calling it an organization. The Firebrands are, at best, a movement. At worst, they're terrorists and rabble rousers.

The first part is fair, in many ways. I'm less certain about the second. They certainly have the potential to engage in terrorism, but no evidence of having done so yet. And as for rabble rousing...since when is that inherently a bad thing?

Kasoh wrote:
The idea that they can accomplish anything with their current structure is laughable.

Not really. A movement with organized portions (which the Firebrands clearly have) can accomplish quite a bit.

Kasoh wrote:
They probably spend as much time fixing their reputation after bad actors tarnish it as they do trying to liberate people. Except that there is no central organization by which to direct these actions, so there's no consistency to their behavior.

Consistency isn't always good. Firebrand activities being unpredictable gives those who are competent and have serious agendas a lot of room to work in unopposed.

Their lack of organization is definitely an exploitable weakness in the movement in many ways, but it's not a pure downside with no upside. There's a reason a lot of rebel 'organizations' have cell structures and often work pretty independently from each other. The Firebrands are a bit less organized even than that, but they're well positioned to evolve into a more cell based organization, and have some prominent members with the background to do that.

Kasoh wrote:
Which might be exactly what the designers were aiming for in a CG organization, but I read that chapter and rolled my eyes a lot. I'm also annoyed at the Crimson Reclaimers also being predominately CG, so I do admit a bias against the Chaos spectrum.

Yeah, you seem to be treating Chaos and a lot of the things that go with it as fundamentally bad, which isn't necessarily true.

Kasoh wrote:
But, at least we have a 'cool and hip' Chaotic organization for people to claim allegiance to. I can't wait for the Caydenite Firebrand Adventurer. /s

What's wrong with Caydenites? They do quite a bit of good in the Inner Sea region and many of them are quite competent as demonstrated in the setting and fiction.

Shadow Lodge

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Deadmanwalking wrote:
Others will be current agents and have to balance their government's agenda with the Firebrand cause.

There's no balancing act to be done. There is no "Firebrand cause" as such, because there is no accountability, membership, discipline, or program. The aim of government agents in the organization would be to subordinate the activities of local groups to the foreign policies of Vidrian and Ravounel as states, and they will find it easy because the organization is hollow.

Quote:
The first part is fair, in many ways.

Even "movement" is too generous. A better term might be "fad."

Quote:
Not really. A movement with organized portions (which the Firebrands clearly have) can accomplish quite a bit.

What they can't do, however, is intervene in politics, or organize a constituency to do so. This is consistent with the setting material, which limits their activity mostly to putting graffiti on things.

Quote:
Firebrand activities being unpredictable gives those who are competent and have serious agendas a lot of room to work in unopposed.

It also gives them an insurmountable barrier of distrust to overcome. When by far the vast majority of your group is bad actors whom you have to spend your time disavowing, what case is there to make for yourself? And more importantly, what benefit is there to being in a group that doesn't give you anything (resources, strategy, direction, ideological/programmatic orientation) other than a bad reputation?

Quote:
There's a reason a lot of rebel 'organizations' have cell structures and often work pretty independently from each other.

Yes, to prevent infiltration and subversion from bringing down the whole organization. The Firebrands, however, can't accomplish that, because of their non-existent membership requirements. Anyone can claim to be one and the name gets attached to everything they do. At some point someone will get the bright idea to exploit this as an agent provocateur, and the organization won't be able to do anything about it.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Deadmanwalking wrote:
What's wrong with Caydenites? They do quite a bit of good in the Inner Sea region and many of them are quite competent as demonstrated in the setting and fiction.

A Caydenite Adventurer is probably the shallowest character archetype you can bring to a table. An itinerant mercenary who wanders from place to place doing good deeds for a cup of ale. Adding Firebrand to it magnifies the things I already don't like about them.

Are there good Caydenites characters? Yes, I'm sure there are. Can there be great Caydenite Characters? the laws of probability require I say yes. Do I ever expect to see one at my table? I'm not so sure. Is my negative opinion a dampening influence on people's character concept choice? I hope not, but I'm sure that happens too. I am an imperfect being after all.

Its another personal thing, and supposed to be more of an overt instance of sarcasm than my usual screed. Aiming for the cheap joke.

I did forget that the organization is very new. That's fair. I still don't like it, but I'm sure it will fill its purpose very well. And because its a CG organization I'm sure we'll get an AP where they do some Lawful organizations job for them, but better, because that's how those APs always go.

Shadow Lodge

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So Firebrands are Golarion Antifa, got it.

Shadow Lodge

TOZ wrote:
So Firebrands are Golarion Antifa, got it.

They wish they were a quarter as effective, well-regarded, and proof against co-optation and provocation.

Liberty's Edge

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zimmerwald1915 wrote:
There's no balancing act to be done. There is no "Firebrand cause" as such, because there is no accountability, membership, discipline, or program.

Yes, there is. You can argue there's no organization (though I'd disagree, the more I read), but you can't argue there's no cause. The Firebrand cause is very explicitly to 'combat oppression and aid those unable to aid themselves'. That's absolutely a cause, and one someone can easily prioritize over their government's interests if they choose to do so.

zimmerwald1915 wrote:
The aim of government agents in the organization would be to subordinate the activities of local groups to the foreign policies of Vidrian and Ravounel as states, and they will find it easy because the organization is hollow.

This, again, assumes government agents have no free will. Sure, there'll be some of this, but both those governments are quite new and partially created by idealistic revolutionaries. Some of those revolutionaries spending time and effort on an idealistic cause rather than realpolitik is hardly implausible.

zimmerwald1915 wrote:
Even "movement" is too generous. A better term might be "fad."

It's really not. It's definitely a movement, and there's definitely an organization at the heart of said movement.

zimmerwald1915 wrote:
What they can't do, however, is intervene in politics, or organize a constituency to do so. This is consistent with the setting material, which limits their activity mostly to putting graffiti on things.

Er...no it doesn't.

They haven't toppled any governments yet, but they've certainly been doing things.

zimmerwald1915 wrote:
It also gives them an insurmountable barrier of distrust to overcome. When by far the vast majority of your group is bad actors whom you have to spend your time disavowing, what case is there to make for yourself? And more importantly, what benefit is there to being in a group that doesn't give you anything (resources, strategy, direction, ideological/programmatic orientation) other than a bad reputation?

Who says it's the majority that are 'bad actors'? Certainly not the book. And, at the moment at least, their reputation appears quite good. Indeed, it's explicitly common knowledge that Firebrands don't go after innocents to the point that most common people won't believe you're a Firebrand if you do this.

And they absolutely do provide resources. That's explicitly why people started claiming to be Firebrands in the first place. The original Firebrands (the ones with ties to Ravounel and Vidrian and thus resources) explicitly provide logistical support to people who claim the name and then live up to it. To quote the LOCG:

"Several months after the Firebrands’ establishment, a small uprising in Galt claimed to be associated with the Firebrands, though this was a blatant lie. Word of this claim reached the Firebrands, and the group quickly jumped to offer what support they could. Though the uprising failed shortly thereafter, word of the Firebrands’ attempts to help reached others. Soon others attempting rebellion claimed to be Firebrands, attracting support from the actual organization. Purporting to be a Firebrand quickly became the easiest way to become a Firebrand proper, as the rebels acknowledge all who adopt the title and work toward the group’s goals."

So, per that, the 'actual organization' (again, the one started by elements within Ravounel and Vidrian) has definite resources, which they use to support others who they approve of, and the core of an organization.

Really, I'm starting to sincerely doubt you actually read the Firebrand entry in its entirety. Much of your argument is contradicted directly by the text as written.

zimmerwald1915 wrote:
Yes, to prevent infiltration and subversion from bringing down the whole organization. The Firebrands, however, can't accomplish that, because of their non-existent membership requirements. Anyone can claim to be one and the name gets attached to everything they do. At some point someone will get the bright idea to exploit this as an agent provocateur, and the organization won't be able to do anything about it.

That's actually not precisely correct. Anyone can claim to be a Firebrand, sure, just like with any organization, and due to the way the Firebrands have consciously chosen to use the thrillseekers as cover (another thing explicitly noted in the LOCG), that qualifies you as 'member'...but getting to the 'Second Mark' (ie: real rank of any sort) requires being actively recruited/acknowledged by another Second Rank member.

They also explicitly ostracize and do not keep up to date on the codes they use any 'member' whose actions they disapprove of (and, it's implied, may kill those they disapprove of strongly enough), and indeed, the mere fact that they do so strongly indicates they change codes and call signs regularly. A spy could certainly infiltrate by 'walking the walk' and just reporting back to their handlers, but an agent provocateur has real trouble, particularly due to the above note that it's 'common knowledge' that Firebrands just wouldn't do certain stuff.

Shadow Lodge

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zimmerwald1915 wrote:
TOZ wrote:
So Firebrands are Golarion Antifa, got it.
They wish they were a quarter as effective, well-regarded, and proof against co-optation and provocation.

Well, in my games they will be.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Sooo we have one person that says they're not Good enough because they aren't not-Evangelicals and one person that says they're not Good enough because they haven't yet impaled any not-Evangelicals at stake.

I guess it means their portrayal is balanced :)

Shadow Lodge

Deadmanwalking wrote:
The Firebrand cause is very explicitly to 'combat oppression and aid those unable to aid themselves'.

The point is, that doesn't mean anything. And more than that, it is very easy to rationalize that advancing the foreign policy interests of a self-proclaimed revolutionary state is the same thing as combating oppression. For an in-setting example, that is exactly what the Andorens do, subordinating the local movement on Thuryan to their foreign policy desire for a military base west of the Arch of Aroden, and engaging in blatant colonialism in Arcadia and Azlant, all in the name of liberty. It is such an easy rationalization I'd call it inevitable.

Nor are local movements proof against being won over to uncritical support of foreign patrons. There is an avowed "Galtan" faction in Pezzack, for instance.

Quote:
It's really not. It's definitely a movement, and there's definitely an organization at the heart of said movement.

That organization would consist entirely of and be limited to the Ravounel and Vidric governments. All the rest are bad-faith play-actors.

Quote:
Er...no it doesn't.

These vignettes are prototypical example of the disreputable Firebrands, who don't do anything other than draw attention to themselves, get themselves in trouble performing ineffectual, apolitical acts of derring-do, and have to spend most of their time getting out of trouble. They are the problem.

Quote:
They haven't toppled any governments yet, but they've certainly been doing things.

Their orientation is not towards toppling governments, or even towards building popular power in revolutionized countries (Ravounel in particular is needful of reform). Their orientation is to individual preening.

Quote:
Who says it's the majority that are 'bad actors'? Certainly not the book.

The book's mechanical options are all geared toward the peacocking type of Firebrand. That indicates something. And even notwithstanding reality, reputations are a fickle thing. Enough propaganda and provocateurs can sour them in a very short time. History is full of examples.

As for the examples of providing resources, these are examples of subordination and not to be counted.


Thank you all for the clarification.

The Exchange

I am a little confused as to how they built the sample NPCs.
What am I missing?

For example, the Charming Scoundrel (p 118) is level 4.
Listed: 54 HP
Calc: 48 HP [Gnome(8) + Class(8)*4 + Con(2)*4] (Diff 6)

Privateer Captain is level 11
Listed: 175 HP
Calc: 129 [Human(8) + Class(8)*11 + Con(3)*11] (Diff 46)


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Laran wrote:

I am a little confused as to how they built the sample NPCs.

What am I missing?

For example, the Charming Scoundrel (p 118) is level 4.
Listed: 54 HP
Calc: 48 HP [Gnome(8) + Class(8)*4 + Con(2)*4] (Diff 6)

Privateer Captain is level 11
Listed: 175 HP
Calc: 129 [Human(8) + Class(8)*11 + Con(3)*11] (Diff 46)

I think those NPCs use the NPC HP values instead of Class based HP.

Silver Crusade

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zimmerwald1915 wrote:
These vignettes are prototypical example of the disreputable Firebrands, who don't do anything other than draw attention to themselves, get themselves in trouble performing ineffectual, apolitical acts of derring-do, and have to spend most of their time getting out of trouble. They are the problem.

Saving people and stopping villains... is the problem?

Shadow Lodge

Rysky wrote:
zimmerwald1915 wrote:
These vignettes are prototypical example of the disreputable Firebrands, who don't do anything other than draw attention to themselves, get themselves in trouble performing ineffectual, apolitical acts of derring-do, and have to spend most of their time getting out of trouble. They are the problem.
Saving people and stopping villains... is the problem?

Yes, because 1) they don't actually accomplish that, for the most part, but do get people hurt or killed trying and 2) their attempts are on an individual, apolitical level, and divert effort and popular attention away from political organizing for systemic change, whether by reform or revolution.


They are trouble, from a certain point of view/

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
zimmerwald1915 wrote:
Rysky wrote:
zimmerwald1915 wrote:
These vignettes are prototypical example of the disreputable Firebrands, who don't do anything other than draw attention to themselves, get themselves in trouble performing ineffectual, apolitical acts of derring-do, and have to spend most of their time getting out of trouble. They are the problem.
Saving people and stopping villains... is the problem?
Yes, because 1) they don't actually accomplish that, for the most part, but do get people hurt or killed trying and 2) their attempts are on an individual, apolitical level, and divert effort and popular attention away from political organizing for systemic change, whether by reform or revolution.

That’s kinda funny since as presented they do accomplish just that. And theres no evidence of the latter occurring in the slightest.

Shadow Lodge

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Rysky wrote:
And theres no evidence of the latter occurring in the slightest.

Which is the problem.


Ok so the heritages for the core races do not come with an ability like the ones in the core book. I have been told that these are only fluff and you choose one from the core book and one from the LOCG.
This has me angry and it is not clearly stated as such
Someone please explain this too me

Silver Crusade

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Mordenhiem wrote:

Ok so the heritages for the core races do not come with an ability like the ones in the core book. I have been told that these are only fluff and you choose one from the core book and one from the LOCG.

This has me angry and it is not clearly stated as such
Someone please explain this too me

Huh? All the heritages have mechanics attached to them.

Are you sure you’re not confusing the mechanic Heritages to people’s ethnicities?

Silver Crusade

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zimmerwald1915 wrote:
Rysky wrote:
And theres no evidence of the latter occurring in the slightest.
Which is the problem.

... how is bad things not happening a problem?

Shadow Lodge

Rysky wrote:
zimmerwald1915 wrote:
Rysky wrote:
And theres no evidence of the latter occurring in the slightest.
Which is the problem.
... how is bad things not happening a problem?

Wait. By "the latter," were you referring to something other than my item 2)?

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
zimmerwald1915 wrote:
Rysky wrote:
zimmerwald1915 wrote:
Rysky wrote:
And theres no evidence of the latter occurring in the slightest.
Which is the problem.
... how is bad things not happening a problem?
Wait. By "the latter," were you referring to something other than my item 2)?

No it was.

There’s been no evidence of the negative things you claim are happening because of the Firebrands are in fact happening.

The Exchange

Kasoh wrote:
Laran wrote:

I am a little confused as to how they built the sample NPCs.

What am I missing?

For example, the Charming Scoundrel (p 118) is level 4.
Listed: 54 HP
Calc: 48 HP [Gnome(8) + Class(8)*4 + Con(2)*4] (Diff 6)

Privateer Captain is level 11
Listed: 175 HP
Calc: 129 [Human(8) + Class(8)*11 + Con(3)*11] (Diff 46)

I think those NPCs use the NPC HP values instead of Class based HP.

Huh? I have gone through the Bestiary, CRB, LO, and I cannot find NPC values (I find some guidelines for adjusting to represent weaker/stronger but those don't work either). Can you give me the page number for the NPC values or should I assume that they are just random number done for fluff purposes?

Shadow Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Rysky wrote:
zimmerwald1915 wrote:
Rysky wrote:
zimmerwald1915 wrote:
Rysky wrote:
And theres no evidence of the latter occurring in the slightest.
Which is the problem.
... how is bad things not happening a problem?
Wait. By "the latter," were you referring to something other than my item 2)?

No it was.

There’s been no evidence of the negative things you claim are happening because of the Firebrands are in fact happening.

I'm still confused. Is "organizing for systemic change, whether by reform or revolution" supposed to be a bad thing? Because I agree that's not happening. That's the point.

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