Kitsune in Second Edition


Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion

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Liberty's Edge

I know this is going against the grain of the thread here but - I really don't understand their appeal or grok why they are so insanely popular.

Is there something I've missed culture-wise that caused the massive influx of Kit PCs?


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Themetricsystem wrote:

I know this is going against the grain of the thread here but - I really don't understand their appeal or grok why they are so insanely popular.

Is there something I've missed culture-wise that caused the massive influx of Kit PCs?

Besides the enchanter optimizers I'd figure there's a venn diagram of Not-Japan, cute girls with animal ears/tails, and anthros with Kitsunes sitting in the middle of the diagram.

Dark Archive

I like their trickster aspect.


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Tarik Blackhands wrote:
Themetricsystem wrote:

I know this is going against the grain of the thread here but - I really don't understand their appeal or grok why they are so insanely popular.

Is there something I've missed culture-wise that caused the massive influx of Kit PCs?

Besides the enchanter optimizers I'd figure there's a venn diagram of Not-Japan, cute girls with animal ears/tails, and anthros with Kitsunes sitting in the middle of the diagram.

Then you add “people who like foxes in general,” “Swashbucklers,” “shapeshifter aficionados,” “people who appreciate the Trickster archetype (not the Pathfinder meaning... but also the Pathfinder meaning),” aaaaand people who just think they’re neat.


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And furries, if a friend of mine is anything to go by.

I definitely think kitsune would be a neat addition to PF2 though, especially if there's variety in their culture as well as physiology (think of all the different fox species you could base their looks on!).


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RiverMesa wrote:

And furries, if a friend of mine is anything to go by.

I definitely think kitsune would be a neat addition to PF2 though, especially if there's variety in their culture as well as physiology (think of all the different fox species you could base their looks on!).

Arctic foxes whose human forms go from blonde to black-haired as the seasons pass (and are often confused for oracles)!

Fennec foxes who pass as halflings in their humanoid form!

Gray foxes who are excellent tree climbers!


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I just had an Idea about the nine-tail situation, How about an Ancestry Archetype "Nine-Tailed Fox". You begin at 4th level with feats to adjust the archetype based on whether or not your a spellcaster, having a tail for each spell level you can cast(up to 9th level) or your level/2.

the first feat gets you a cantrip and a bonus spell for each spell level(1/day per spell for non-casters as Primal Spells or as bonus spells to spells known). the additional spells can be broken up to additional feats.

the archetype can replace both class feats and kitsune ancestry feats.

20th level feat gives you a 10th tail and 10th level spell, the native outsider type and immortality for age.

Additional feats for the archetype can be added.

Contributor

zergtitan wrote:

I just had an Idea about the nine-tail situation, How about an Ancestry Archetype "Nine-Tailed Fox". You begin at 4th level with feats to adjust the archetype based on whether or not your a spellcaster, having a tail for each spell level you can cast(up to 9th level) or your level/2.

the first feat gets you a cantrip and a bonus spell for each spell level(1/day per spell for non-casters as Primal Spells or as bonus spells to spells known). the additional spells can be broken up to additional feats.

the archetype can replace both class feats and kitsune ancestry feats.

20th level feat gives you a 10th tail and 10th level spell, the native outsider type and immortality for age.

Additional feats for the archetype can be added.

I'm a fan of an ancestral archetype (like I said on the first page of the thread). I think it's a good way to handle it in a way that doesn't bog down the ancestry's feat allocation. Plus it lets you create abilities of different power levels.


I mean, the animal folk are still part of the setting. We just got the lizard people, and the APG is going to have the cat people and the crow people. I'm more hoping we get stats for the cuddly spider people as a playable ancestry than concerned about not getting the fox people or the snake people or whatever.


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I’m looking forward to seeing what they do when we do get there!


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On a related note, I hope we get more Dakitsu lore (and that Daikitzushi becomes a thing)!

Paizo Employee Customer Service & Community Manager

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Removed post and replies. It's important to remember that different people in the community will have different interests, opinions, and tastes. There is plenty of room in this hobby for people to enjoy the game for a variety of reasons. This thread is about the kitsune ancestry, it is not about stereotyping and shaming people that may want to play them. Please stay on topic.

Contributor

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Thanks for taking the time to help keep this thread on topic, Sara! You and the rest of the CS staff are awesome. :D

Contributor

VixieMoondew wrote:
On a related note, I hope we get more Dakitsu lore (and that Daikitzushi becomes a thing)!

Who's the "zushi" half of that? I know there's lore between Daikitsu and Nalinivati, but I've never heard of this new deity ship. :P

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Themetricsystem wrote:

I know this is going against the grain of the thread here but - I really don't understand their appeal or grok why they are so insanely popular.

Is there something I've missed culture-wise that caused the massive influx of Kit PCs?

I can't speak for anyone else, but my appeal into Japanese culture and tabletop gaming started with martial arts and Legend of the Five Rings (the card shop was next to the dojo). I started playing the Fox Clan and learning more about animism, the relationship between the divine and the material and the whole "trickster spirit" thing was always an appealing archetype even when I was back into Native American lore.

They are a ridiculously versatile race that can be used to tell a great number of stories by focusing on some aspect of the race. They fill a nice niche in the setting, being these forest dwelling, fear inducing and over-all playful bunch that straddle the line between traditional elf and Lost Omens gnome.

The most popular species in fantasy are those that reflect a part of what it means to be human. My reason to play any of these species, from Kitsune to Vishkanya, is to help express something about myself.

I will admit that I miss the "centuries old half-spirit, taboo-obsessed, doesn't-understand-human-norms" kitsune archetype that is more prevalent in modern campaign settings, but I've gotten my fill of those.

Sovereign Court

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Alexander Augunas wrote:
VixieMoondew wrote:
On a related note, I hope we get more Dakitsu lore (and that Daikitzushi becomes a thing)!
Who's the "zushi" half of that? I know there's lore between Daikitsu and Nalinivati, but I've never heard of this new deity ship. :P

I had a kitsune who used to write and give out masterwork deific ship books as bribes. Tried desperately to slip a copy into heaven's archives, but the angels wouldn't have it.


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Alexander Augunas wrote:
VixieMoondew wrote:
On a related note, I hope we get more Dakitsu lore (and that Daikitzushi becomes a thing)!
Who's the "zushi" half of that? I know there's lore between Daikitsu and Nalinivati, but I've never heard of this new deity ship. :P

So as you may be aware, Daikitsu has her roots firmly in the real-world Japanese goddess Inari. Fried tofu is said to be a favorite of kitsune, and as kitsune are often Inari’s worshippers/followers/messengers, there is a dish called Inarizushi.

If such a dish existed in Golarion, it would of course be called Daikitzushi instead!

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
VixieMoondew wrote:
Alexander Augunas wrote:
VixieMoondew wrote:
On a related note, I hope we get more Dakitsu lore (and that Daikitzushi becomes a thing)!
Who's the "zushi" half of that? I know there's lore between Daikitsu and Nalinivati, but I've never heard of this new deity ship. :P

So as you may be aware, Daikitsu has her roots firmly in the real-world Japanese goddess Inari. Fried tofu is said to be a favorite of kitsune, and as kitsune are often Inari’s worshippers/followers/messengers, there is a dish called Inarizushi.

If such a dish existed in Golarion, it would of course be called [I]Daikit[i]zushi instead!

*takes notes*


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Inarizushi is ALSO any favorite form of sushi :D

Contributor

VixieMoondew wrote:
Alexander Augunas wrote:
VixieMoondew wrote:
On a related note, I hope we get more Dakitsu lore (and that Daikitzushi becomes a thing)!
Who's the "zushi" half of that? I know there's lore between Daikitsu and Nalinivati, but I've never heard of this new deity ship. :P

So as you may be aware, Daikitsu has her roots firmly in the real-world Japanese goddess Inari. Fried tofu is said to be a favorite of kitsune, and as kitsune are often Inari’s worshippers/followers/messengers, there is a dish called Inarizushi.

If such a dish existed in Golarion, it would of course be called Daikitzushi instead!

That's pretty cool!

Paizo doesn't usually like using real-world lifts, but it never hurts to ask your developer!


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Alexander Augunas wrote:
VixieMoondew wrote:
Alexander Augunas wrote:
VixieMoondew wrote:
On a related note, I hope we get more Dakitsu lore (and that Daikitzushi becomes a thing)!
Who's the "zushi" half of that? I know there's lore between Daikitsu and Nalinivati, but I've never heard of this new deity ship. :P

So as you may be aware, Daikitsu has her roots firmly in the real-world Japanese goddess Inari. Fried tofu is said to be a favorite of kitsune, and as kitsune are often Inari’s worshippers/followers/messengers, there is a dish called Inarizushi.

If such a dish existed in Golarion, it would of course be called Daikitzushi instead!

That's pretty cool!

Paizo doesn't usually like using real-world lifts, but it never hurts to ask your developer!

Well, it’s no more of a real-world lift than, say, chicken and dumplings or baklava. :P

Contributor

VixieMoondew wrote:
Alexander Augunas wrote:
VixieMoondew wrote:
Alexander Augunas wrote:
VixieMoondew wrote:
On a related note, I hope we get more Dakitsu lore (and that Daikitzushi becomes a thing)!
Who's the "zushi" half of that? I know there's lore between Daikitsu and Nalinivati, but I've never heard of this new deity ship. :P

So as you may be aware, Daikitsu has her roots firmly in the real-world Japanese goddess Inari. Fried tofu is said to be a favorite of kitsune, and as kitsune are often Inari’s worshippers/followers/messengers, there is a dish called Inarizushi.

If such a dish existed in Golarion, it would of course be called Daikitzushi instead!

That's pretty cool!

Paizo doesn't usually like using real-world lifts, but it never hurts to ask your developer!

Well, it’s no more of a real-world lift than, say, chicken and dumplings or baklava. :P

The food isn't, but the name could be. Like, chicken dumplings is find because "chicken" and "dumplings" are both common nouns. Where things get difficult is for a food like Belgian waffles, baked Alaska, Buffalo wings, California rolls, and so on. Those are all foods that use a real-world location (a proper noun) to denote the "style" of the food. Saying that Golarian has Belgian waffles would absolutely be an immersion breaker, but changing it to something like "Ulfen Waffles" doesn't necessarily fix the immersion-breaking if it's just a minor name swap.

That isn't to say that something like Inarizushi could never be in Golarion, but there's a not-zero chance that it would be omitted for this exact reason. My gut reaction is that if they had a sushi named after Daikitsu, they might want to adjust the name (like simply Daikitsushi) and would probably make up an all-new recipe rather than lift the real-world one.


Well, I mean there was a Lucerne Hammer...

Contributor

PossibleCabbage wrote:
Well, I mean there was a Lucerne Hammer...

That is VERY true. It'll be interesting to see if the Lucerne hammer gets updated to PF2.

Silver Crusade

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Yeah that’s a bit of a foxhole to go down when you start looking.


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Rysky wrote:
Yeah that’s a bit of a foxhole to go down when you start looking.

I get it! :D

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
VixieMoondew wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Yeah that’s a bit of a foxhole to go down when you start looking.
I get it! :D

:3

Contributor

Continuing the discussion, Pathfinder 2 has been changing around the looks for a bunch of humanoid ancestries, like hobgoblins and iruxi with the goal of making them look more humanoid and less, as James Jacobs referred to it, “Like werewolves.”

Do y’all think that the look of kitsune should change, or do they get a bye because they’re shape changers? I’m super interested to hear other people’s opinions on this.


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*banging pots and pans* MAXIMIZE FLOOF!!!!! BIGGER TAILS!!!!!!!!


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Alexander Augunas wrote:

Continuing the discussion, Pathfinder 2 has been changing around the looks for a bunch of humanoid ancestries, like hobgoblins and iruxi with the goal of making them look more humanoid and less, as James Jacobs referred to it, “Like werewolves.”

Do y’all think that the look of kitsune should change, or do they get a bye because they’re shape changers? I’m super interested to hear other people’s opinions on this.

Why not both? Heritages.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Alexander Augunas wrote:

Continuing the discussion, Pathfinder 2 has been changing around the looks for a bunch of humanoid ancestries, like hobgoblins and iruxi with the goal of making them look more humanoid and less, as James Jacobs referred to it, “Like werewolves.”

Do y’all think that the look of kitsune should change, or do they get a bye because they’re shape changers? I’m super interested to hear other people’s opinions on this.

Hmm, I definitely have one player who would be *very* pleased to have ears-and-tail-on-a-pretty-boy kitsune, but thats more extreme than what they've done with the others. So I don't really know, I'd lean more toward "foxes who can shape shift into people" myself- but that's very removed from what they are in Pathfinder 1e.


I’ll take all flavors I can get! Fox furries, fox demis, just straight-up foxes. They don’t call me the Kitsune PC Warehouse for nothin!

Silver Crusade

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More Kitsune!

From today's blog


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Alexander Augunas wrote:

Continuing the discussion, Pathfinder 2 has been changing around the looks for a bunch of humanoid ancestries, like hobgoblins and iruxi with the goal of making them look more humanoid and less, as James Jacobs referred to it, “Like werewolves.”

Do y’all think that the look of kitsune should change, or do they get a bye because they’re shape changers? I’m super interested to hear other people’s opinions on this.

I would like them to remain shapeshifters with a human form and anthropomorphic fox form and perhaps ancestry feats for a normal fox form and perhaps additional feats to be able to change their human form as well.

In their natural states keep it anthropomorphic, although being a fan of anime, the ears and tail on a human body would also please me.

Silver Crusade

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Yeah I'd love for them to have an inbetween option.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Perhaps some ancestry feats will expand the number of forms you can use shapechange with? Seems like the kind of thing those are good for, and I’m curious what stats the hybrid form would wind up with.

I suppose we’ll be able to reverse engineer Skinwalker heritages if they go that route.

Contributor

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Rysky wrote:

More Kitsune!

From today's blog

MY SON!!!!!!

Sovereign Court

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The-Magic-Sword wrote:
Alexander Augunas wrote:

Continuing the discussion, Pathfinder 2 has been changing around the looks for a bunch of humanoid ancestries, like hobgoblins and iruxi with the goal of making them look more humanoid and less, as James Jacobs referred to it, “Like werewolves.”

Do y’all think that the look of kitsune should change, or do they get a bye because they’re shape changers? I’m super interested to hear other people’s opinions on this.

Hmm, I definitely have one player who would be *very* pleased to have ears-and-tail-on-a-pretty-boy kitsune, but thats more extreme than what they've done with the others. So I don't really know, I'd lean more toward "foxes who can shape shift into people" myself- but that's very removed from what they are in Pathfinder 1e.

The illustrations I use for my human-shape kitsune tend to have ears/tails during comical moments. I really like the myth that the ears/tails are just well hidden and can still be spotted if the kitsune is inexperienced (low disguise), which infers a kitsune in human-shape who doesn't care to hide their heritage can freely and openly display their tail/ears even in "human form".

I have a kitsune who is proud of their heritage, but frequently uses human form just because pathfinders can't seem to stay out of the sewers.

Contributor

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With the new sidebar format, I don't think there'd be room for it in the stat blocks, but in some of my own writings (see: Dynastic Races Compendium), I have rules where kitsune who are sickened (ie legit sick or just intoxicated) lose their Disguise bonus from change shape; it was always my headcanon that it was from the kitsune losing control of their shapechanging, maybe their ears popping out or something.

Another thing I wanted to do was a "shapechanging sickness" that caused a shapeshifter to lose control of their form.

Sovereign Court

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Alexander Augunas wrote:

With the new sidebar format, I don't think there'd be room for it in the stat blocks, but in some of my own writings (see: Dynastic Races Compendium), I have rules where kitsune who are sickened (ie legit sick or just intoxicated) lose their Disguise bonus from change shape; it was always my headcanon that it was from the kitsune losing control of their shapechanging, maybe their ears popping out or something.

Another thing I wanted to do was a "shapechanging sickness" that caused a shapeshifter to lose control of their form.

One-tailed kitsune are traditionally pretty bad at Shapeshifting. In my headcanons, a one-tailed kitsune is effectively using an Illusion Spell, whereas a two-tailed kitsune can actively use Transmutation. Which only helps push the "each tail as a different school of magic" angle!

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So we finally have our first look at kitsune in a Pathfinder Society adventure! Of course, NPCs only have abilities that the authors believe relevant for that scenario, so this isn't really a look at what the race will be like for player-characters, never-the-less we learned...

Spirit Road:

They are humanoids with the Kitsune trait!

They have bite attacks!

They still hang out in the Forest of Spirits!

They use foxes and giant foxes! These animals have pounce. Some also have climb and sneak attack!

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