Create Pit, Reflex save successful but no free spaces


Rules Questions


Hello,
last session I thought about creating a pit under a surrounded big creature. Since it died the next round, nothing happened, but I'm curious, how you would handle this situation:

A=Ally, E=Enemy, x=obstacles

xxxx
AEEA
AEEA
xxxx

"Any creature standing in the area where you first conjured the pit must make a Reflex saving throw to jump to safety in the nearest open space."

Would you rule, that the 10ft size Enemy jumps over/through the occupied fields to the nearest free? What about if standing on a bridge, instead of being surrounded by walls?

What about four individual enemys?


Garzag wrote:

Would you rule, that the 10ft size Enemy jumps over/through the occupied fields to the nearest free? What about if standing on a bridge, instead of being surrounded by walls?

What about four individual enemys?

Were I ruling on it, I wouldn’t allow the pit victim to get an additional 10’ move from making the saving throw, but I’d give them a better result than just falling into the pit, e.g.

Option 1: the opponent falls in the pit, but takes half damage from the fall
Option 2: the opponent is left hanging on the edge of the pit by his fingernails.

If they were standing on a bridge I can see the opponent falling into the river instead as a valid option, though If the bridge was over a mile high chasm I’d be inclined to fall back into the created pit as the safer option!


According to your diagram all your allies have to make reflex saves to avoid falling in. 2 of them are on the edge so they get a +2 to the roll. I would resolve those first to see if it opens a free area before having the enemy make their roll. Since the enemy is probably going to have to move more than 5 feet that may provoke an attack of opportunity. If one of your allies uses a bull rush (assuming they made the save) they can push the enemy back and it gets no save.

Basically in the situation you show you are going to end up with a mad scramble of both allies and enemies attempting to avoid falling in. Afterwards assuming you survive your allies may end up being your enemies. Or at least have a long talk with you about not putting them into danger.


I don't think they would have to make a save, when the spell is casted:

In addition, the edges of the pit are sloped, and any creature ending its turn on a square adjacent to the pit must make a Reflex saving throw with a +2 bonus to avoid falling into it.


Another thought: if a large enemy (4 squares) is affected by a pit, but only 1/2/3 pit-squares are underneath it, is a save necessary/easier?

The Exchange

Garzag wrote:
Another thought: if a large enemy (4 squares) is affected by a pit, but only 1/2/3 pit-squares are underneath it, is a save necessary/easier?

How would being on 3 pit squares (but not 4) work? How can you manage that?


Da Wander wrote:

How would being on 3 pit squares (but not 4) work? How can you manage that?

Fair enough..


I'd say they either are treated as climbing up the side of the pit and maintain their position, or they jump to the nearest square provoking AoOs as normal for movement through threatened squares.


Mysterious Stranger wrote:
Since the enemy is probably going to have to move more than 5 feet that may provoke an attack of opportunity.

I was under the impression that forced moves do not cause attacks of opportunity, only the voluntary ones or a special ability that also causes it even though the movement is compulsory due to a reaction (such as, in this case, a reflex save causing reactive movement). The nature of saving throws is not subject to logic, as in the allowance for reflex saves in all circumstances calling for one except when the target is helpless.

That aside, the obstacles could be the way for the large creature to avoid falling in the pit by bracing against them. These specifics are often left to the DMs whim.


Create Pit creates a pit that is 10’ by 10’ with a depth of 10’ per two caster levels. So you can’t create a pit of less than 4 squares.

As to the save it is going to depend on if the ally has acted already. If they have not acted yet they can retreat to avoid having to make a save. If not, or if they have not acted and do not retreat they will need to make a save.

If the enemy is moving past the allies they can always attempt an overrun as part of their move. This of course provokes an attack of opportunity. The ally could use the attack of opportunity to perform a bull rush to push the enemy back into the pit. But if the ally does not have improved bull rush it provokes an attack of opportunity. Like a said in my original post it is going to be a mad scramble.

Another thing to consider is that the spell may not complete fill the area the enemy is standing. While the description does say if creates a 10 x 10 pit it could be a circular pit with just enough area for someone to balance on without falling in. Or the pit could have a enough of a lip to give the person who makes their save a place to stand.

Even if none of those methods work the enemy could use the climbing rules to avoid falling. Depending on the nature of the barrier this may be fairly easy, but will probably put the enemy in a exposed position.

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