Things you assume from 3.5 / PF1 but are different in PF2!


Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion

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Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Inspired by some recent threads, I've thought to compile a list of things which one can easily assume based on 3.5/PF1 rules, but are different/don't exist in PF2. In other words, things you can trip over easily. The list isn't exhaustive nor it even isn't in any way structured, the idea is for people to highlight anything they come by. I'll start:

1. AoO aren't a universal ability everyone has any more.

2. Neither is charge (you can move twice and attack...but it's not the same)

3. Undead have Constitution score.

4. Wielding two weapons doesn't give you an extra attack.

5. mirror image creates always three images.

6. Things you can achieve using skills are no longer limited to "peak normal human ability". Legendary Acrobatics allows you to balance on a sword's edge or a falling chunk of debris, Legendary Athletics allows you to climb a perfectly smooth surface (flat out impossible in PF1 no matter what's your score).

7. You don't get a free 5-foot step, it takes an action now.

8. PF1 dazzled is -1 to attack and Perception, PF2 dazzled means everyone is concealed from you.

9. Incredible Initiative is +2 to initiative rolls, not +4 as PF1 Improved Initiative.

10. +X magic weapon means it's +X to hit, not damage.


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Alchemist fires are martial weapons.
You cannot poison yourself anymore.
Goblins deserve more and more love.
You can damage a ghost with a non-magical weapon.
Many monsters have lost their immunities.
Recall knowledge only gives you one piece of information and is an action.


Armor doesn't interfere with arcane spellcasting.

Monks can use shields.

(edit) Large weapons don't do more damage just for being Large.


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Spells in general have different durations/effects.

Using a shield takes an action.

Surprise rounds are a class feature.

Animal companions and familiars now require an action to do anything.

It appears that you cant hold a spell (at least not by default).

There is no fighting defensively/total defense.


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All damage (including sneak attack dice) doubles on a critical hit. The exception is damage caused by the critical hit itself (i.e., Deadly damage from a weapon).

You can damage swarms with weapons.

You break initiative ties in favor of the monsters.


No Touch AC.

Magic Missile can be foiled by Concealment.

Undead can be affected by mental magic.


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RH wrote:

No Touch AC.

Magic Missile can be foiled by Concealment.

Undead can be affected by mental magic.

Unless they have the Mindless trait, which many of them do.


Salamileg wrote:
RH wrote:

No Touch AC.

Magic Missile can be foiled by Concealment.

Undead can be affected by mental magic.

Unless they have the Mindless trait, which many of them do.

Yeah, true. Skeletons and Zombies are mindless, all the others so far are fair game.


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Not from PF1 to PF2 but Playtest to CRB, AoO only disrupts spells on a crit now without a certain stance.

Shadow Lodge

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Being grappled is only a minor inconvenience instead of completely shutting down spellcasters.


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The GM rolls checks you never get to see more often than before

Spellcasters use their casting stat for attacks with spells

It takes an action to regrip a weapon

Wizards do not have opposed schools

Druids, Monks, and Barbarians have more alignment options

Clerics often have fewer alignment options

Aligned damage only harms creatures of the opposite alignment, doing nothing to neutral creatures. This may get errata'd.


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Paradozen wrote:
The GM rolls checks you never get to see more often than before

this omg this, my players definitely keep trying to roll for things and i have to tell them its a secret roll due to degrees of success.


I haven't seen anything about minimum damage being one.

Inspire courage affects spell damage rolls.

In most campaigns you can channel with downed enemies nearby and not revive them.


Familiars have no attacks and are not tied to an existing animal's statblock

Successful grappling only penalizes the target, not the one initiating the grapple.

Sunder does not exist.

Squeezing is not an option in combat for most

Exo-Guardians

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Del_Taco_Eater wrote:
In most campaigns you can channel with downed enemies nearby and not revive them.

?


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I believe that is referring to the Dying condition at 0 hp (instead of immediate death) being optional, at GM discretion, in if/when it applies to NPCs.

Silver Crusade

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Monstrous Humanoid, Vermin, and Outsiders* aren't a thing anymore. Native Outsiders are completely gone, Aasimars are Humanoids and Rakshasa are just Fiends.

*Kinda, we still have Fiends and Celestials and the like but they don't have a major grouping setting them apart from others like Humanoid (Human). If you were to hypothetically recreate Bane style stuff you'd need to be super specific now, aka Devil Bane instead of Evil Outsider Bane.

Sovereign Court

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You no longer have to choose to damage undead OR heal allies. A 3-action heal does both. Which brings up the question where does it say that a 3-action heal won't affect enemies (downed or not) too? By my reading it does. It says "this targets all living and undead creatures in the burst"

Silver Crusade

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Samurai wrote:
You no longer have to choose to damage undead OR heal allies. A 3-action heal does both. Which brings up the question where does it say that a 3-action heal won't affect enemies (downed or not) too? By my reading it does. It says "this targets all living and undead creatures in the burst"

Yep, need Selective Energy to exclude.


The Rot Grub wrote:
You can damage swarms with weapons.

You can also grapple, shove, and trip them.


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Rysky wrote:

Monstrous Humanoid, Vermin, and Outsiders* aren't a thing anymore. Native Outsiders are completely gone, Aasimars are Humanoids and Rakshasa are just Fiends.

*Kinda, we still have Fiends and Celestials and the like but they don't have a major grouping setting them apart from others like Humanoid (Human). If you were to hypothetically recreate Bane style stuff you'd need to be super specific now, aka Devil Bane instead of Evil Outsider Bane.

Adding on to this, there are individual outsider categories now. Ethereals, Elementals, Astrals, Monitors, Fiends, and Celestials are the categories (I think).


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Daily Prepared Casting means Daily Prepared Casting.
No more "leaving some slots open for later" as universal option.
Of course, Wizards have option of Spell Substitution Thesis.


Albatoonoe wrote:
Rysky wrote:

Monstrous Humanoid, Vermin, and Outsiders* aren't a thing anymore. Native Outsiders are completely gone, Aasimars are Humanoids and Rakshasa are just Fiends.

*Kinda, we still have Fiends and Celestials and the like but they don't have a major grouping setting them apart from others like Humanoid (Human). If you were to hypothetically recreate Bane style stuff you'd need to be super specific now, aka Devil Bane instead of Evil Outsider Bane.

Adding on to this, there are individual outsider categories now. Ethereals, Elementals, Astrals, Monitors, Fiends, and Celestials are the categories (I think).

We have both those and the more specific ones for particular kinds of creatures, like angels and psychopomps, and also for other categories of creature, like dinosaurs. Oddly the traits don't always seem to be applied. Graveknights say they get the graveknight trait, but it doesn't appear on their statblock.


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Perpdepog wrote:
The Rot Grub wrote:
You can damage swarms with weapons.
You can also grapple, shove, and trip them.

And crit them. Which is hilarious to describe as a GM when they are crit and killed with a bite attack.


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Wait you can grapple and trip swarms now? ... how does that work?


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Vidmaster7 wrote:
Wait you can grapple and trip swarms now? ... how does that work?

I see a trip as scattering the swarm a bit without killing any, making them easier to break apart. But you got me on the grapple.


Garretmander wrote:
Perpdepog wrote:
The Rot Grub wrote:
You can damage swarms with weapons.
You can also grapple, shove, and trip them.
And crit them. Which is hilarious to describe as a GM when they are crit and killed with a bite attack.

The 1E troop rules had a similar problem where a crit on a single enchanted sword could sometimes deal more than half of the HP of the troop . So you can be in a position of saying 2 or 3 sword swings had scattered 20+ guys


Lanathar wrote:
Garretmander wrote:
Perpdepog wrote:
The Rot Grub wrote:
You can damage swarms with weapons.
You can also grapple, shove, and trip them.
And crit them. Which is hilarious to describe as a GM when they are crit and killed with a bite attack.
The 1E troop rules had a similar problem where a crit on a single enchanted sword could sometimes deal more than half of the HP of the troop . So you can be in a position of saying 2 or 3 sword swings had scattered 20+ guys

That's easy, since they are intelligent. Your deadly crit against a few of them broke morale and caused them to scatter.

Silver Crusade

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I non-ironically appreciate the discourse on swarms, but let's keep it to things you've found to work differently in PF2 than in PF1 :)

Exo-Guardians

HammerJack wrote:
I believe that is referring to the Dying condition at 0 hp (instead of immediate death) being optional, at GM discretion, in if/when it applies to NPCs.

Wasn't that true in PF1 as well? Or was it just a near-universal houserule?


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You cannot cast spells when polymorphed into a dragon.


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I think it was just a near-universal houserule, mostly revolving around GMs not wanting to bother keeping track of negative hit points for cannon fodder. The CRB doesn't say the GM has discretion of applying negative HP up to Con Mod to NPCs, anyway. The only times I would do it would be for a major boss fight.

On thread topic, I find the fact that Wizards don't need one hand free for Somatic Components to be awesome. Complete Arcane, for D&D 3.5, introduced a Somatic Weapon feat that let you use a weapon as your somatic component, and I thought that was a great feat for a gish-type character.


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Paradozen wrote:
You cannot cast spells when polymorphed into a dragon.

That one is actually a bit ambiguous. The rules for battle form say:

"Unless otherwise noted, the battle form prevents you from casting spells, speaking, and using most manipulate actions that require hands. (If there’s doubt about whether you can use an action, the GM decides.)"

The Dragon Form spell says:

"You have hands in this battle form and can take manipulate actions."

There are other polymorph spells with this same language, but none that spcecifically address speaking or spellcasting, even though most of the creatures for which this language is given have languages in their monster descriptions.

So this looks like another case that (at least for now) is left to GM discretion.


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gnoams wrote:
Being grappled is only a minor inconvenience instead of completely shutting down spellcasters.

I dunno if I'd call a 20% chance to lose any spell with somatic, material, or focus components a minor inconvenience for a caster. Not a complete shutdown either though.

Edit: too many dang o's

Scarab Sages

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Bardarok wrote:
gnoams wrote:
Being grappled is only a minor inconvenience instead of completely shutting down spellcasters.
I dunno if I'd call a 20% chance to loose any spell with somatic, material, or focus components a minor inconvenience for a caster. Not a complete shutdown either though.

An 80% failure is pretty bad, I want to loose my fireballs, dangit.


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* There's no take ten (I think? mog?)
* No rolling for hit points. Yay!

I had something else but I's forgot~


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Kerrilyn wrote:
* There's no take ten (I think? mog?)

That's correct. It's been replaced by Assurance, which is a skill feat that you need to take for skills individually and works a little differently (no bonuses or penalties at all, your result is 10 + your proficiency)

Sovereign Court

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Kerrilyn wrote:

* There's no take ten (I think? mog?)

Yeah, the new design is more "we wouldn't asking you for a check, unless we wanted the outcome to be in doubt".


Hideous Laughter can target creatures who don’t speak any language.

It’s no longer about telling a joke. We officially have magic laughing gas.


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Mindless creatures have intlligence scores.


Ravingdork wrote:
Mindless creatures have intlligence scores.

With a -5 modifier, so zero in terms of a PC stat. So while their intelligence isn't "null", it's still nothing.

One assumption I've seen is thinking you're safe when you have some distance from an enemy.
They move twice and still get their biggest attack = ouch!

Grand Lodge

A -5 also represents a 1 int. I know odd # are uncommon, 19 & 21 are possible, why not 1?


Castilliano wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
Mindless creatures have intlligence scores.

With a -5 modifier, so zero in terms of a PC stat. So while their intelligence isn't "null", it's still nothing.

One assumption I've seen is thinking you're safe when you have some distance from an enemy.
They move twice and still get their biggest attack = ouch!

A lot of martials get a charge like ability to move and attack, so simply being "away" from them does not prevent them from attacking. Of course there's also not ubiquitous AoOs anymore, so your not locked down either. Moving away forces them to also spend action economy to get back to you, so is a form of damage mitigation in a sense.


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You no more need to charge in straight line.


SuperBidi wrote:
You no more need to charge in straight line.

Yeah, this is a big deal too. Charging isn't a thing anyone can do anymore (class feat), but it also lost a lot of the restrictions it used to have.

Sudden Charge (stride twice and attack) is a great saver in terms of action economy in PF2. It effectively turns 3 actions into 2.


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SuperBidi wrote:
You no more need to charge in straight line.

"You and your men gotta wear red, and march in a straight line." -- Bill Cosby, "Toss of the Coin".


You can intimidate non mindless undead as well as use most mental magic on them.

Exo-Guardians

-Casters use their spellcasting ability mod (INT/WIS/CHA) for ranged spell attacks instead of their DEX

-Concentration checks don't exist-- your spell is only disrupted if an enemy crits on an AoO

-Casting Defensively doesn't exist-- casting always provokes (unless the spell is Verbal only)

-Splash damage applies to the target as well as adjacent creatures

-PCs can make untrained Knowledge checks, for all skills/lores

-Feats, skills, and even class features can all be retrained during downtime


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It's easy in PF2 to assume you should toss a roll into the mix "just because" except critical failures w/ secret rolls make this hazardous!


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Tripping flying creatures can knock them out of the sky

Daze cantrip does damage now, only stuns on a critical failure

Nonlethal damage now only matters for the attack that reduces a creature to 0 HP

Undead are not immune to nonlethal damage, just constructs

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