Unchained Thug Rogue - Optimization Advice


Advice


Planning a level 11 Character for when ever I get to play again
Level 11 cause that's about as far as most the games i have been in have gotten

most start at level 3, 4, or 5

I'd like to have a strong mostly optimize build
Optimize to where i am good at what i do but not to the point I steal the show from every one else

Race??

Traits??

Feats??

others??


The most simple way involves saps. This does have one critical problem: undead and constructs are immune to nonlethal damage. Assuming you don't want undead kryptonite, then you could get the option of nonlethal damage with a trait like mock gladiator (there are a couple others that'd work), or just ditch the nonlethal idea entirely and go with a standard rogue build.

With a build focused on beating people up with a couple of light maces (w/mock gladiator) you want the enforcer feat to get free intimidate checks and TWF to use them both. Later feats are sap adept and sap master, and possibly shatter defences and its prereqs (weapon focus, dazzling display). Unchained rogue comes with free weapon finesse. With the weapon training and combat trick rogue talents you could have all of these by level 9, then get improved TWF at 11.

If you'd rather not focus on intimidate so much that's easy enough, just take feats for one of the other means of getting sneak attack instead.

Any race will do but a +dex/+cha race makes it easiest. Paizo has printed many of these.

Sovereign Court

I am partial to Underground Chemist/Rake over Thug. But I like alchemy stuffs.

Some advantages of Rake is that you can pretty much guarantee that intimidate works by sacking sneak attack dice, you don't need Enforcer so you won't have the Non-lethal damage problem and aren't restricted in weapons. You can also throw 'bombs' that can sneak attack. And draw any alchemical item as if it were a weapon, so quick draw is a good idea.

You can get the Frightened condition from going with the Skill Unlock on 5 ranks of Intimidate. Its not a guaranteed as Enforcer + Thug however. You can get the Sickened from a weapon enchant, Cruel.
I also like dipping Medium for Champion for the sweet static damage. Nothing like rolling a d4 dagger +10 at low levels.


@ Firebug

Not Bad But I kinda have my heart set on thug as Want to tie in to my character's back story

@ AVR

ya? Sounds good. think I'll go the Light maces route

any advice on my rogue talents?


Two of them will be weapon training and combat trick with the above plan. Emboldening strike may be handy for your saves, beyond that you've got free talents for whatever you find cool or useful - eerie disappearance, minor magic & major magic, trap spotter or umbral gear are all worth a look IMO.


@ AVR

So my Feats would look like this

Level (1) enforcer
Level (2) - Rogue Talent = weapon training = Weapon focus
Level (3) Two Weapon fighting
Level (4) - Rogue Talent = combat trick = sap adept
Level (5) Dazzling display
Level (7) shatter defences
Level (9) sap master


I like the Hurtful Feat.

I like Natural Attack builds.

I like Knockout Artist, but it's only supposed to work with Unarmed Strikes.


Scott Wilhelm wrote:

I like the Hurtful Feat.

I like Natural Attack builds.

I like Knockout Artist, but it's only supposed to work with Unarmed Strikes.

Yes Hurtful could be Fun

I guess if i went Normal human i could fit in some where?


Shatter defences requires BAB +6, you take it at 9. Dazzling display you have mainly for that feat, take it at 7 which lets you take sap master at 5.

Hurtful requires power attack which you don't have. Even as a human you'd need to dump something to get it in a decent time, maybe drop shatter defences and dazzling display. Also if you're considering sneaking around at all it's very good to have darkvision, and human rogues need a scroll or a friend with a spell for that.


avr wrote:

Shatter defences requires BAB +6, you take it at 9. Dazzling display you have mainly for that feat, take it at 7 which lets you take sap master at 5.

Hurtful requires power attack which you don't have. Even as a human you'd need to dump something to get it in a decent time, maybe drop shatter defences and dazzling display. Also if you're considering sneaking around at all it's very good to have darkvision, and human rogues need a scroll or a friend with a spell for that.

I see.

Getting some dark vision sounds good.

I was wondering if there was another trait i could take that i'll help out?

I got mock gladiator for sure but i get one more


I'm sure there was a way, but I don't remember the name and it was only 10' darkvision IIRC.

Fetchlingas are +dex/cha with darkvision and a bunch of other useful traits, or if they're not on the table then half-orcs can have +dex, darkvision and get a racial bonus to intimidate.


avr wrote:

I'm sure there was a way, but I don't remember the name and it was only 10' darkvision IIRC.

Fetchlingas are +dex/cha with darkvision and a bunch of other useful traits, or if they're not on the table then half-orcs can have +dex, darkvision and get a racial bonus to intimidate.

Ok I think i'll go Half-Orc

Another question any items i should look out for?


If you've inflicted shaken and sickened on an enemy, some of the low save DC weapon enhancements like bewildering become more respectable. Not required though and you may just prefer more enhancement bonus.

An elixir of the thundering voice lasts an hour, so works as a prebuff if you're expecting serious trouble.

You may well have a good UMD skill with some Cha and it as a class skill. Picking up a few scrolls for special occasions - glitterdust vs. invisible enemies, expeditious retreat perhaps, etc. - and maybe a 1st level wand or two for your own buffs is possible.

Otherwise don't forget the big 6.

Sovereign Court

A cheaper alternative (that stacks with) to Elixir of Thundering Voice is the Gravelly Tonic. Only +5, but its an alchemical bonus which are pretty hard to come by. And 1/5th the price.
I am partial to Faerie Fire over Glitterdust. 5' Radius so not quite as large, but longer range, lasts 3x longer from a wand and no save (but doesn't blind). At higher levels, having Glitterdust becomes more useful because things have Spell Resist and Glitterdust is SR:No.

For special occasion items I also like Burning Disarm on a wand since its more effective when they make the save then when they don't.


@ AVR

so I was wondering could dipping in To snakebite brawler Be worth anything to me?

Get a bit of BAB

Get Two Weapon Fighting for Free (My group counts it as a feat) and some other features?


Two levels of brawler is almost always a good deal for two weapon fighters, particularly if you let brawler's flurry count as two weapon fighting feat for upgrading with feats later. Snakebite is worse than the base class, but it is nice keeping all your sneak dice, I'd look at keeping base brawler and buying back the lost dice with a feat instead.


ErichAD wrote:
Two levels of brawler is almost always a good deal for two weapon fighters, particularly if you let brawler's flurry count as two weapon fighting feat for upgrading with feats later. Snakebite is worse than the base class, but it is nice keeping all your sneak dice, I'd look at keeping base brawler and buying back the lost dice with a feat instead.

what would a Good level 9 Build using Brawler and thug look like?


Nosta1300 wrote:

@ AVR

so I was wondering could dipping in To snakebite brawler Be worth anything to me?

Get a bit of BAB

Get Two Weapon Fighting for Free (My group counts it as a feat) and some other features?

Dip 3, and take Improved Feint. That way you have another way of locking in your Sneak Attack Damage if your opponent is difficult to Intimidate.


I'd be concerned that splitting focus between feinting and intimidating would make both worse while also failing to shore up the weakness both share against many creatures. There's too large an overlap of creatures immune or resistant to both.

It's hard to give build advice when looking at an intimidate build without knowing the type of game world you'll be playing in. 3 levels of anti-paladin is a pretty important piece of many intimidate builds as it renders typically immune creatures vulnerable. I'd also typically recommend the damnation feat "soulless gaze" and one other damnation feat in order to make each intimidate stack in condition level. That removes some of the benefit of thug though. And you are solidly evil of course, that could be a problem.

Brawler 2
Rogue:Thug 2
Anti-Paladin 3
Rogue:Thug 2

H1:Soulless Gaze
L1:Enforcer
R2:Weapon Focus-Unarmed
L3:Fiendskin
L5:Dazzling Display
R4:"Strong Impression" Intimidating Prowess
L7:Violent Display

That should set you up pretty nicely till level 7. This build has the assumption built in that you'll have a flanking partner of some form. If not, I'd recommend replacing "soulless gaze" and "fiendskin" with "step-up" and "press to the wall".


ErichAD wrote:
I'd be concerned that splitting focus between feinting and intimidating would make both worse while also failing to shore up the weakness both share against many creatures.

That's a legit concern. I'm not too worried about it, though. Rogues have a lot of Skill Points to spend. Being really good at both lying and intimidating is reasonable for a Rogue. Also, most magic items that give bonuses on Skill Checks are cheap.

ErichAD wrote:
There's too large an overlap of creatures immune or resistant to both.

Also fair, it's just that it's so inexpensive to get Snake Feint once you decided to take 2 levels in SBS Brawler: it's just one more level. I'd just go for it.

I do like to have a few options for locking in Sneak Attack Damage, though. I don't feel comfortable putting all my eggs in the Intimidate basket.

I like Dirty Trick Feats: make your opponent Blind, and if they have the Blind Fighting Feat, play another Dirty Trick and make the Deaf, too. That'll work on almost anybody.

I like dipping a level in Arcanist and taking Dimensional Slide, a 10' Teleport that can be done as part of your Move and doesn't end your turn. I think that would be a great way to help get Flanking. Also, with even that one level dip, you can use all Sorcerer and Wizard Wands with no need to Use Magical Device, and you can now dump that very expensive Skill. And +2 Will Saves: always good. Eventually, you'll be able to afford a Wand of Greater Invisibility, and lock in Sneak Attack Damage that way, too.

Dip 3 level in Bard with the Flame Dancer Archetype, and then get an Eversmoking Bottle, now you're blinding everybody except for your allies and everybody who has it gets their Sneak Attack Damage!

That's a lot of different ways to secure SA Damage. I'm thinking a character should have 2 or 3, just in case.


Getting more different means of sneak attack is good, but when you start splitting feats between two or more you're paying a cost in power. I'd suggest using spells (from consumables or from major magic) as a backup means for the original idea or something close to it. Vanish obviously, expeditious retreat so you can literally run around the enemy to get into position, dazzling blade if you like gambling, are a start to look at.

It not that you can't make Scott's mountains of dip classes work, it's that they're a different concept I think.

On possible single dips:
Snakebite striker brawler 2 is OK. It provides an alternative to TWF in its flurry so you probably don't want it and the TWF feat, unless you can retrain. UnRogue 3 gives you dex to damage and should be what you aim for first.
Antipaladin 3 negates fear immunity (paladins) but doesn't help with mind-affecting immunity (undead etc.). Not what you're after I think.
Flame dancer bard 3 is too great a diversion IMO and hurts your focus badly.
Arcanist 1 for dimensional slide (and easy wand use) is possible and a single level dip doesn't hurt much. It is still a cost of course.


That's an unusual interpretation. Is there a reference somewhere for anti-paladin fear immunity removal only functioning on fear immunity from specific abilities?


avr wrote:
It not that you can't make Scott's mountains of dip classes work, it's that they're a different concept I think.

I was somewhat reluctant to bring them up for this reason.


ErichAD wrote:
That's an unusual interpretation. Is there a reference somewhere for anti-paladin fear immunity removal only functioning on fear immunity from specific abilities?

I looked at Antipaladin (vanilla) again, and I think you're right -- I think that Rules As Written, you can make even mindless Undead and Constructs afraid. In some other thread about making a really scary party (with an Antipaladin and a Mocker Bard, among other things), this was also the consensus.


Did a quick search here and found one thread where people disagreed on the matter, two where they agreed that antipaladins can't frighten skeletons. Then I took a wider look (google) and the top result was a Reddit thread where the consensus was the reverse, that aura of cowardice wins. There's no FAQ, but a developer comment here agrees it doesn't work - but OTOH James Jacobs is not a rules guy.

And no, I don't know what the original source of my own belief was - it wouldn't be from using antipaladins because I last did so in AD&D 1e. Probably some throwaway comment on another thread because I don't believe I've read any of the above before.


^I guess then you would need something on top of that to get rid of the immunity of mindless creatures to Mind-Affecting affects.

On top of that, now I can't find Mocker Bard any more (maybe I have the name wrong? -- even tried looking in the Guide to Archetypes as well as on both SRD sites), but I did find that Voice of Brigh Bard can affect Constructs even though they would normally be immune to Mind-Affecting affects; as far as I can tell, this doesn't stack with an Antipaladin's abilities, but it does set a precedent for overcoming immunity conferred by being mindless.


So Far this is what I GOt

:
Race - Human (+2 Cha)
Classes - Brawler (Snakebite Striker) X2 + Unchained Thug Rogue X3

Traits
1 Memorable (@ AVr i know you showed me Mock gladiator But since i will be fighting unarmed I figure i can just choose to to deal lethal or None lethal Damage
2 ???

Feats -
LV-1 Enforcer
Human - Soulless Gaze
Brawler - (Twf)
Brawler - Weapon Focus
Level 3 Sap Adept
Rogue - ????
Level 5 Sap Master
Level 7 D- Display
Level 8 - Rogue - Shatter Defense
Level 9 Violent display


Wait this one should be a bit better

I was half awake when I made the previous Post

Race - Human

Class - Brawler (Snakebite) X2 / Unchained (thug) X9

Traits
(1) Mock Gladiator
(2) Irrepressible

Feats-
Level(1) - Enforcer
Level(1) - (Human - Bonus) - :Soulless Gaze
Level(2) - (Brawler - Bonus) - Two Weapon Fighting
Level(2) - (Brawler - Bonus) - Weapon Focus (Light Maces)
Level(3) - sap adept
Level(4) - (Rogue - Talent / Combat Trick) - Dazzling Display
Level(5) - Fiendskin
Level(7)- Sap Master
Leve(9) - shatter defences
Level(11) - Violent Display


UnArcaneElection wrote:

^I guess then you would need something on top of that to get rid of the immunity of mindless creatures to Mind-Affecting affects.

On top of that, now I can't find Mocker Bard any more (maybe I have the name wrong? -- even tried looking in the Guide to Archetypes as well as on both SRD sites), but I did find that Voice of Brigh Bard can affect Constructs even though they would normally be immune to Mind-Affecting affects; as far as I can tell, this doesn't stack with an Antipaladin's abilities, but it does set a precedent for overcoming immunity conferred by being mindless.

Prankster bard has a mock ability. It seems odd, but maybe that's it.


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No you're right Julius, light maces/mock gladiator are unnecessary since you can just punch for 1d6. Get weapon focus via a rogue talent tho'. You can always find a use for another feat (maybe a style) and rogue talents generally aren't as good as feats.

UAE, maybe the court bard? I wouldn't recommend it here tho'.


^You are correct!


@ AVR so Would Unchained Thug Rogue better for me as a Dip of say 3 levels on Top of another class or should i Stick as either

Un-rogue thug
or Brawler (Snake) X unchaineed Thug

what would i get more miles of of


The snakebite striker gets a really slow sneak attack progression and since they don't have martial flex., they don't have a full progression at anything to work with. I do not recommend taking more than 2 levels of it. Maybe 3 on a feint build. Maybe.

Thug UnRogue does make an effective 1 or 3 level dip, but I don't know what other class you'd want for this concept, and it is effective enough on its own. If you fleshed out the concept a bit maybe something would spring to mind.


avr wrote:

The snakebite striker gets a really slow sneak attack progression and since they don't have martial flex., they don't have a full progression at anything to work with. I do not recommend taking more than 2 levels of it. Maybe 3 on a feint build. Maybe.

Thug UnRogue does make an effective 1 or 3 level dip, but I don't know what other class you'd want for this concept, and it is effective enough on its own. If you fleshed out the concept a bit maybe something would spring to mind.

well looking through google i Found a build that uses

5 level Thug - Regular rogue and 15 level slayers

with the first 5 feats being

Feats
LV(1) Weapon Focus (Kukri)
LV(1) Dazzling Display
LV(2) Two Weapon Fighting
LV(3) Intimidating Prowess
LV(4) Fearsome Finish
LV(5) Killing Flourish


That's another build, more or less unrelated to the one I presented, yes. Note that it requires you to worship Lamashtu and at least 4 of your first 5 levels must be slayer to meet the prereq for killing flourish.

BTW I still don't know what the concept you're working with is.


avr wrote:

That's another build, more or less unrelated to the one I presented, yes. Note that it requires you to worship Lamashtu and at least 4 of your first 5 levels must be slayer to meet the prereq for killing flourish.

BTW I still don't know what the concept you're working with is.

Eh? sorry Guess i forgot to say

I want use Intimidate as a means for combat That's all

I need to craft a character around it

and that build works well

But i do have a few questions

(first off all the games i play in our homebrewed and we all most never use the Gods from the Actual pathfinder series) so i can get that part waved

But Would the memorable trait be worth it for me?


Memorable is worth it with a thug level because it (probably) lets you auto-frighten enemies when you beat the DC by 15 rather than by 20. Which happens more often than you think. Without that thug level no, you don't care whether the enemy is shaken for one more round.

When making a character for myself I usually try to have a concept in mind beyond mechanics, in order to thin down the thousands of options and combos in PF if for no other reason.


I'm a big fan of a similar build to the one I initially proposed that replaces all the rogue levels with vigilante levels for the twisting fear vigilante talent. Being able to hit everyone you intimidate with a few dice of non-lethal damage isn't super powerful, but it can set the scene well when the mooks pass out mid fight.
The main benefit of sticking with rogue requires a 2 level dip in slayer to pickup merciless butchery, a standard action coup de gras on cowering targets. You can pick up the studied target class feature through serial killer vigilante though, so that's another point in its favor.

Unfortunately, vigilante gives you a host of weird abilities that frequently don't fit a character concept.

There's also a cavalier order, order of vengeance, that increases the negatives from fear effects by a little. That seems much further away from your initial character concept though.


well Truth be told the Slayer with the feats that gear through killing foes suffering from fear is more up my ally

I like the idea of mass intimation


ErichAD wrote:
Unfortunately, vigilante gives you a host of weird abilities that frequently don't fit a character concept.

Fortunately, you don't have to use any of these abilities. Dual Identity is a badly designed, badly written class feature for Batman fanboys who are too stupid to find the disguise rules in the CRB. You literally don't need to use it at all - simply never switching to vigilante identity works perfectly fine, and nowadays you even have plenty of useful social talents to support that playstyle. This also removes seemless guice, which leaves you with the X Appearance class feature, which fit a rogueish character pretty well.

I know it seems like Dual Identity is an important part of the character, but honestly, it isn't.


Hey now! I'm a transformers fan boy, and there's nothing you can say to convince me that it isn't important for "Melody Flux", my wyrwooden vigilante with malleable flesh, to preserve her daylight persona "animated wind up music box".

Jokes aside, yes you can ignore the ability and never use it. It may be harder to get a gun-shy DM to ignore it though, particularly since you're already playing a "serial killer", raising red flags for most DMs.


ErichAD wrote:
It may be harder to get a gun-shy DM to ignore it though

I'm confused, what's a GM supposed to do when you simply never use a class feature?


The risk would be the gun-shy DM not allowing the character in the first place.


Well, if it's based on flavor reasons, the archetype is the issue, not the class itself. Funny enough, if player never uses the vigilante identity, they can play a neutral Serial Killer Vigilante just fine, and shouldn't actually make any trouble in that regard (unless the player doesn't have the mental capacity to understand that the name of the archetype does not mean it's the only possible way to play the character).

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