PFS(2) 1-04 Bandits of Immenwood


GM Discussion

Grand Lodge 5/5 Regional Venture-Coordinator, Great Lakes aka TwilightKnight

--deleted--

Sovereign Court 5/5 Venture-Captain, Canada—Ontario—Ottawa aka The ShadowShackleton

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Loving the looks of this scenario. Reminds me a lot of Night March of Kalkamedes. The curse of the scale is particularly nasty.

2/5

Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Starfinder Superscriber

Played it last week, GMing it next week. I love 'alternate combat' missions ie (where there is an objective in addition to/other than simply kill all the opponents). However, I did find (while playing, and my read through in preparation for gming feels the same), that its exceptionally easy to lose cargo points -- our GM didn't reveal cargo point mini-game, the connection to Treasure bundles, nor that you can lose 1-2 w/o jeopardizing success conditions -- the briefing makes it sound like losing any is grounds for a secondary failure. It definitely had the feeling of high tension, buy maybe a touch too binary.

The Grand Archive faction aspect seems different, than some other faction tagged missions. Under all SFS faction tagged missions that I'm experienced with (small set), and the previous Envoy's Alliance mission, it was bonus reputation with the tagged faction for all PCa (regardless of faction). While this one appears to be written for ONLY Grand Archive PCs receiving the bonus. Is this intentional?

Sovereign Court 5/5 Venture-Captain, Canada—Ontario—Ottawa aka The ShadowShackleton

Is there any circumstance in which the players can identify the scale and either destroy it or leave it behind to avoid most of the encounters? It seems like a risk but it is listed as an artifact so perhaps unlikely?

Sovereign Court 1/5

That would result in a failure of their primary objective. If you're running I would make that very clear to the PCs if they discuss it.

Their job is to get whatever is causing the bad luck back to the Lodge so they can study it. Hard to do that if you purposely destroy or toss it.

Sovereign Court 5/5 Venture-Captain, Canada—Ontario—Ottawa aka The ShadowShackleton

I guess my question is, is it even possible to identify an artifact by ordinary means?

Sovereign Court 5/5 Venture-Captain, Canada—Ontario—Ottawa aka The ShadowShackleton

I could see them thinking they are thinking they are bringing something extremely dangerous back to Absalom and not wanting to do so. Clearly as GM I need to convince them otherwise.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
NielsenE wrote:
[...] our GM didn't reveal cargo point mini-game, the connection to Treasure bundles, nor that you can lose 1-2 w/o jeopardizing success conditions -- the briefing makes it sound like losing any is grounds for a secondary failure. It definitely had the feeling of high tension, but maybe a touch too binary.

Good call out. The sidebar does mention explaining the Cargo Point mechanic to players in terms of items on the inventory sheet being lost or damaged, but it's easy to not emphasize the non-binary fail aspect clearly enough. And yeah, it does seem like there are plenty of ways to lose enough Cargo Points to jeopardize that success condition anyway.

Quote:
The Grand Archive faction aspect seems different, than some other faction tagged missions. Under all SFS faction tagged missions that I'm experienced with (small set), and the previous Envoy's Alliance mission, it was bonus reputation with the tagged faction for all PCs (regardless of faction). While this one appears to be written for ONLY Grand Archive PCs receiving the bonus. Is this intentional?

It seems so to me. Especially since in the briefing under Faction Notes, only the Grand Archive PCs are specifically addressed by Zarta and given those instructions.

2/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Arizona—Tempe aka Keylac

Hey folks, had a couple of questions about this and I was hoping someone would know the answers :)

1) This doesn't actually use Forest Multi-Pack, right? Does it use any flip mats, or am I going to have to print them?

2) Are regular squirrel swarms supposed to be small? That seems... odd.

3) The final encounter in 3-4 lists different numbers of Sea Devil Scouts. The encounter says 1, the appendix says 2. If you've run it, would you suggest using 1 or 2 as the base? Or should I just see how beat up my table is before I decide?

If you're not sure of the precise correct answer to 2 & 3, but have already run it, please let me know which one worked for you.

-Cheers, Key

Paizo Employee Organized Play Developer

4 people marked this as a favorite.
David Pritchard wrote:

Hey folks, had a couple of questions about this and I was hoping someone would know the answers :)

1) This doesn't actually use Forest Multi-Pack, right? Does it use any flip mats, or am I going to have to print them?

2) Are regular squirrel swarms supposed to be small? That seems... odd.

3) The final encounter in 3-4 lists different numbers of Sea Devil Scouts. The encounter says 1, the appendix says 2. If you've run it, would you suggest using 1 or 2 as the base? Or should I just see how beat up my table is before I decide?

If you're not sure of the precise correct answer to 2 & 3, but have already run it, please let me know which one worked for you.

-Cheers, Key

1) The Woodlands map ended up getting recycled between encounters B1 and B3 after the initial map info was posted in the product thread since we ultimately decided that the multi-pack wasn't really pulling meaningful weight touching only a single encounter.

2) They should be Large as shown on the map; they picked up the wrong size trait somewhere along the line.

3) The Appendix entry should be the one given priority if there's ever a disconnect between it and the body text (in this case there should be two sea devil scouts).

We've implemented some process flow changes that should hopefully stop most of these late change incongruencies from cropping up going forward.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
David Pritchard wrote:

Hey folks, had a couple of questions about this and I was hoping someone would know the answers :)

1) This doesn't actually use Forest Multi-Pack, right? Does it use any flip mats, or am I going to have to print them?

By "print them" I guess you mean encounters B2 and C, which are custom maps. They're simple enough to draw if you don't want to print. The other 3 encounters are on Woodlands (used twice as Michael pointed out above) and Tavern flip-mats.

Shadow Lodge 5/5 ⦵⦵ Venture-Lieutenant, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East aka thistledown

Glen Shackleton wrote:
I could see them thinking they are thinking they are bringing something extremely dangerous back to Absalom and not wanting to do so. Clearly as GM I need to convince them otherwise.

I was playing a storm druid of Gozreh, (from the Sodden Lands!) last night, and this scenario was very troubling. We were convinced from the beginning that all the problems were Gozreh expressing anger at us looting their temple, and only metagaming got us to press forward with the mission instead of sending the entire cargo back to Yamasa. We did everything we could to mitigate Gozreh's wrath, but nothing helped.

Especially after killing the first druid sent against us, we really wanted to stop figure things about before we took anything on towards Absalom (Our cleric of Abadar also didn't like the idea of bringing this storm into town).

Our GM was good on pushing us on, finally gave us that the box was cracked open, and we poked at the scale a bit without figuring what it's deal was. GM pointed out that none of the bad luck stuff had happened to me - I was casting spells not making attack rolls so I never noticed. Then we pressed on through the night. I had been driving the wagon, but now I walked in front while carrying the box to see if animals went for it instead of the wagon. Then centaur happened.

We ended up taking it to a siege tower in the cairnlands and having Zarta meet us there instead of taking it all the way into town.

3/5 ⦵⦵ Venture-Agent, Ohio—Dayton aka Athos710

Top of Page 10
"the PCs can any cargo points they stole"
Was recovered or saved the word that was missed here?

Page 12, under Cargo Points
"PCs unconscious but not dead..."
No question here, it's just a mangled sentence.

Page 21
Is the wolf morale of 8 hp for the animal companions? The next line says druids and animal companions fight to the death.

Page 22
It says the scale summons an air elemental but the monster stats for this tier are zephyr hawks. What tactics are we supposed to use for the hawks?

Page 27
Are the "wolf masters" the halfling druids from the stat blocks?
Why is there a reference to a Dire Wolf?


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
Allen Snyder wrote:

Page 21

Is the wolf morale of 8 hp for the animal companions? The next line says druids and animal companions fight to the death.

There are non-animal-companion wolves in the high subtier.

Allen Snyder wrote:

Page 22

It says the scale summons an air elemental but the monster stats for this tier are zephyr hawks. What tactics are we supposed to use for the hawks?

Zephyr hawks are air elementals.

Allen Snyder wrote:

Page 27

Are the "wolf masters" the halfling druids from the stat blocks?
Why is there a reference to a Dire Wolf?

Because changes were made to the monsters and not carried through to the text.

Michael Sayre wrote:
We've implemented some process flow changes that should hopefully stop most of these late change incongruencies from cropping up going forward.


Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

Having run twice now (condition A and C reported). Had some questions for people in the future.

If Vengeant Thorn escapes with the scale, there isn't any text indicating how many cargo points are lost. Though the inset says that each encounter will have further details. Seeing as how you fail the primary objective (ed: oddly named since the PCs only know about protecting the Secondary objective) and lose 2 fame and 2 prestige I'm assuming its 0 cargo lost.

Also, since Vengeant Thorn doesn't have overly much in the way of tactics, cast entangle, activate the scale (3 actions), damage the cart (easy with hydraulic push or the lightning does it for him at the end of the round). He has every reason to simply hold any downed party member ransom and threaten them with death to get what he wants and simply leave. Which I totally did and really caused a table some angst after the cleric crit failed the storm's electric arc save and went down. In tier 3-4 I expect that there will be table variance as to whether casting obscuring mist is a defensive spell (something he casts before combat).

Also the electric arc from the scale doesn't have an initiative. I expect table variance running it at init 0 or init 10 or just before/after Thorn.

4/5

Ok, I'm probably not reading this correctly. Are the scaling suggestions for the encounters on top of or instead of the normal level bump?


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
katataban wrote:
Ok, I'm probably not reading this correctly. Are the scaling suggestions for the encounters on top of or instead of the normal level bump?

I believe the intention is "instead of", except where explicitly stated. I could be wrong, of course, but I'll explain why I think so.

1. Compare the Scaling Encounter sidebars in this adventure compared to the same sidebars in other adventures. This adventure calls out specific bands of Challenge Points and many of its sidebars, especially in the high subtier, specify not only adding additional monsters, but also adjustments to HP and DCs which are precisely the sort of thing a level bump does. Contrast this to other adventures, where the sidebars simply reference the subtier and number of players, and only give the traditional 5 or 6 player adjustment which calls for more monsters.

2. In the Scaling Encounter sidebar for encounter B3 of this adventure, the asterisked entries explicitly "include the level bump adjustment" for that Challenge Point total (14-15 at low subtier or 28+ at high subtier). Now, this is slightly problematic phrasing because you could interpret the language to mean EITHER "the level bump adjustment is already included (i.e. accounted for in the balancing) so don't add it", OR "you should include (i.e. add on top) the level bump adjustment". I incline towards the latter interpretation because if you don't add it on top, there is no difference between the non-asterisked CP band (5-player adjustment) and the asterisked CP band (5 player adjustment with level bump) in that section, which would make little sense.

Liberty's Edge 4/5 Venture-Lieutenant, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West

What kind of penalties on perception did other GMs impose for precipitation here? I'm having trouble finding concrete guidelines in the CRB; this might matter, for example, in encounter B2 where the PCs might spot a hiding enemy.

Bandits of Immenwood page 6 wrote:
Within this radius, normal fires are automatically extinguished, and any soft terrain such as sand or a dirt road is turned into difficult terrain. See page 517 of the Pathfinder Core Rulebook for details of weather effects on visibility and movement.
CRB 517 wrote:
Most forms of precipitation impose circumstance penalties on visual Perception checks. Hail often is sparser but loud, instead penalizing auditory Perception checks. Especially heavy precipitation, such as a downpour of rain or heavy snow, might make creatures concealed if they’re far away.

I was thinking a -1 penalty, myself. But I'm interested in what others did.

1/5

I have a question about the Nature DC to command the horses pulling the Wagon to move. With a DC of 15 and a penalty of -2 to command the horses, I can see a party not trained in nature having all kinds of difficulty with this, especially at first level. I am picturing a fighter swearing and cursing at the horses failing repeated nature checks to even get them to move in the first place. Khoumrock mentions the options of hiring a teamster, but I can't find anything in the text as to how much and what benefit that would be.

2/5

Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Starfinder Superscriber

Hirelings from the CRB are 5sp/day and have a +4 bonus to one skill. Sounds reasonable that the town has teamster hirelings w/ nature as their skill available.

3/5 Venture-Agent, Canada—Alberta—Grand Prairie aka DM Livgin

The Nature DC to handle the animals only comes up a few times:

1) Stopping the run away with the frog swarm.
2) Stopping them from walking into the spike trap.

With the frog swarm they have a fixed number of rounds to get the horses under control and with the spike trap they get one round to stop the horses before they walk over the trap. Other than these two locations the behaviour of the horses does not matter.

So; don't make them roll nature checks to handle the horses otherwise. Roleplay it up that these are stubborn and agitated work-horses. Maybe have them roll checks to move the wagon out of the stable before the frogs arrive so that they understand the DC is hard. But don't make them roll for every start/stop. Just my two cents; skill checks are harder in PF2. To mitigate frustration with that, only roll skill checks when they meaningfully change outcomes.

NielsenE wrote:
Hirelings from the CRB are 5sp/day and have a +4 bonus to one skill. Sounds reasonable that the town has teamster hirelings w/ nature as their skill available.

Thanks for finding this!


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
NielsenE wrote:
Hirelings from the CRB are 5sp/day and have a +4 bonus to one skill. Sounds reasonable that the town has teamster hirelings w/ nature as their skill available.

It's double that amount if you want them to go adventuring with you.

Another alternative is to spend Fame to get a hireling (4 Fame gets you a hireling with skill of [2 + your level], applied to one skill and one lore.)

5/5 Venture-Agent, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East aka Pirate Rob

I've been buying a hireling for most of my characters, nice way to get a decent roll on a skill with an 8/10 attribute for just a few prestige.

2/5

Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
logsig wrote:
NielsenE wrote:
Hirelings from the CRB are 5sp/day and have a +4 bonus to one skill. Sounds reasonable that the town has teamster hirelings w/ nature as their skill available.

It's double that amount if you want them to go adventuring with you.

Another alternative is to spend Fame to get a hireling (4 Fame gets you a hireling with skill of [2 + your level], applied to one skill and one lore.)

Oops, yup forgot the double price to go adventuring for the CRB one.

1/5

I remember reading in the CRB that anyone traveling for four hours or more in rainy conditions becomes fatigued. I don't remember mention as to how long the trip takes, but it seems a bit of a jerk move to throw the fatigued condition on top of all the other miserable conditions the PC's have to deal with.

On the other hand, does this remind anyone else of those when-animals-attack eco disaster movies from the 70's like Frogs or Prophecy or Day of the Animals?


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
Charles Grybosky wrote:
I remember reading in the CRB that anyone traveling for four hours or more in rainy conditions becomes fatigued. I don't remember mention as to how long the trip takes, but it seems a bit of a jerk move to throw the fatigued condition on top of all the other miserable conditions the PC's have to deal with.

Yeah. Realistically the trip must take more than 4 hours (some of the encounters state the time elapsed since the last encounter - "half an hour", "an hour", "a few hours"), but it struck me as a jerk move too.

Scarab Sages 3/5 Venture-Agent, Nebraska—Bellevue aka JohannVonUlm

logsig wrote:
NielsenE wrote:
Hirelings from the CRB are 5sp/day and have a +4 bonus to one skill. Sounds reasonable that the town has teamster hirelings w/ nature as their skill available.
It's double that amount if you want them to go adventuring with you.

You could make a case that the PCs are not hiring the teamster to go adventuring. They really just need to take the wagon from point A to point B. "We're staying on the road, what could possibly happen?"

Scarab Sages 3/5 Venture-Agent, Nebraska—Bellevue aka JohannVonUlm

Exton Land wrote:


If Vengeant Thorn escapes with the scale, there isn't any text indicating how many cargo points are lost. Though the inset says that each encounter will have further details. Seeing as how you fail the primary objective (ed: oddly named since the PCs only know about protecting the Secondary objective) and lose 2 fame and 2 prestige I'm assuming its 0 cargo lost.

It's identified as being in a specific box (one of the 20 items on the list). I'd say it'd be one cargo point.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
logsig wrote:
Charles Grybosky wrote:
I remember reading in the CRB that anyone traveling for four hours or more in rainy conditions becomes fatigued. I don't remember mention as to how long the trip takes, but it seems a bit of a jerk move to throw the fatigued condition on top of all the other miserable conditions the PC's have to deal with.
Yeah. Realistically the trip must take more than 4 hours (some of the encounters state the time elapsed since the last encounter - "half an hour", "an hour", "a few hours"), but it struck me as a jerk move too.

I suspect that rule is describing something like a forced march, where you don't stop when you're getting fatigued or hungry or whatever. I suspect that what we're not seeing between encounters are the parts where the party stops for a bit to rest the horses and their feet, take a breather, and get going again.

In short, I don't see a reason to inflict a condition on lowbie characters in this mod. There's enough conditions to go around as it is.

Grand Lodge

What, exactly, are the wind penalties in the earlier fights? It mentions them in an early part of the module, and refers you to the CRB, but the CRB itself is vague and doesn't give anything more than approximations.

I'm also have two questions about the Hafling Druids:
1. I am assuming they are effected by the scale's bad-luck effect.
2. The 1-2 druids have a call out that they heal their companions immediately if the wolves are damaged, but they don't have the Heal Animal focus spell like the 3-4 druids do, is this correct?

The module specifically calls out that B2 doesn't have the wind/rain conditions, but has the dim-light condition instead. Does that continue on to B3 (and possibly B4 if it happens)?

Is the Touched by the Storm boon for every character, or just the ones who directly handle the Scale?


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
Trscroggs wrote:

What, exactly, are the wind penalties in the earlier fights? It mentions them in an early part of the module, and refers you to the CRB, but the CRB itself is vague and doesn't give anything more than approximations.

I'm also have two questions about the Hafling Druids:
1. I am assuming they are effected by the scale's bad-luck effect.
2. The 1-2 druids have a call out that they heal their companions immediately if the wolves are damaged, but they don't have the Heal Animal focus spell like the 3-4 druids do, is this correct?

The module specifically calls out that B2 doesn't have the wind/rain conditions, but has the dim-light condition instead. Does that continue on to B3 (and possibly B4 if it happens)?

Is the Touched by the Storm boon for every character, or just the ones who directly handle the Scale?

0. Wind penalties: Yeah. I wouldn't worry about it in the earlier fights.

1. I assume so also.

2. Yep. It's just that the same tactics text was printed for both tiers.

3. B2 and B3 are on different maps, so it's plausible that the dim light does not apply to B3... The dim light in B2 is described as due to the way the trees are growing, and B2 is a different location than B3. (Getting a bit meta: B3 has exactly the same map as B1, which didn't have dim light.)

Side note: Realistically, it probably doesn't make a huge difference: dim light is unlikely to be too a much of an inconvenience for most parties, and I think the fluff feeling of being constantly persecuted by the forces of nature, in whatever way, is more important than the mechanical effect here.

4. All chars get it.

Chronicle instructions on p.39 wrote:
All PCs who complete this adventure without gaining the Thorny Situation boon gain the Touched by the Storm boon on their Chronicle sheet.

Dark Archive 5/5 ⦵⦵

Running this one tonite - had a question.

Any clue how fast the 2-horse wagon moves?
I see mention of several movement actions - Stride, Gallop
- but no base speed to operate from, unless its the base Speed of the riding horses.

Dataphiles 1/5 ⦵⦵

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
Joe Jungers wrote:

Running this one tonite - had a question.

Any clue how fast the 2-horse wagon moves?
I see mention of several movement actions - Stride, Gallop
- but no base speed to operate from, unless its the base Speed of the riding horses.

I used the base speed of the riding horses.

Dark Archive 5/5 ⦵⦵

AshenShade wrote:
Joe Jungers wrote:

Running this one tonite - had a question.

Any clue how fast the 2-horse wagon moves?
I see mention of several movement actions - Stride, Gallop
- but no base speed to operate from, unless its the base Speed of the riding horses.

I used the base speed of the riding horses.

Did a bit more research, delving back into the PF1 archives.

Their horse has a base move of 50ft, but when tied to a wagon/cart, their speed drops to 20ft (so, a loss of 60% from the base).

The PF2 horse has a base speed of 40ft.
Applying the same reduction would leave the wagon movement at 16ft (too non-standard for my tastes).
I'm going to go with a 20ft move for the wagon.

Paizo Employee 5/5 Organized Play Lead Developer

5 people marked this as a favorite.

Important note on Reputation in this scenario:
This scenario has an unconventional structure where it looks like only PCs who are representing the Grand Archive can get the bonus reputation. We first-edition-PFS-trained developers are still working out some of the bumps of moving over to an SFS-style system, and we don't really want this scenario to be an outlier.

With that in mind, please strike out the phrase "If any of the PCs are members of the Grand Archive faction," in the faction notes section at the beginning. Have Zarta talk to the PCs regardless of their faction affiliation (if none are representing the GA, you'll probably want to paraphrase the boxed text a bit).

Then at the end of the scenario, if the PCs meet the conditions listed in the faction notes section, every PC gets the bonus Reputation with the Grand Archive faction.

Liberty's Edge 3/5

okay, so the Scale is located in the box - I (playing my druid) had bought a bag of holding and placed that box into the bag.

The GM played the scenario as is - stating the scales magic was--- well able to effect the material realm from an extra dimensional space.

Based on everything that has happened previously (PF1) an extra dimensional space should have nullified the magic of the scale.

to prevent this (as it did nto sit well with me at all how my GM ran it) do people agree that the box is emitting some sort of magic that prevents it from being able to be put into a bag of holding - ie as you attempt to move it into the bag, a force acts against you, the harder you push the less movement you make and then you hand with the box flies back from the bag.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I don't think rules from PF1 are intended to carry over to 2E like you assumed with the bag of holding and extra-dimensional space. I could not find anything in the currently published (2E) books that indicates that the magic of the scale should not work from inside a bag of holding.

So I think your GM had it right when ruling it still works from within the bag. I also think that without clear and explicit rules that a bag of holding would prevent the scale from working, it should not be this easy to overcome a major source of difficulty for the scenario just "by accident". If the PCs had somehow found out about the scale, done some research and come up with using an extra-dimensional space to contain the problem, I might grant some effect, maybe weaken the impact of the curse somewhat, along the lines of "alternative solutions not mentioned in the scenario". But not just for dumb luck trying to stash random items from the wagon for easier transport. If we had clear rules in 2E or the scenario that a bag of holding prevented the curse from working, there'd be no room for interpretation. But we don't, so it's once more up to the GM.

Preventing the box from being put into a bag of holding is not a good "solution", imho, and significantly alters the scenario as written (it basically allows the PCs to receive an extremely strong clue that the box might need to be looked at further merely by attempting to stow the items away for transport).

Dark Archive 4/5 ⦵⦵⦵⦵

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Meadow lark wrote:
Based on everything that has happened previously (PF1) an extra dimensional space should have nullified the magic of the scale.

Let's say that your right. But do you really want to be right? Because here's how I see it playing out.

The players and GM spend some amount of time getting to the game. Perhaps you live five minutes from the game store and its trivial. Perhaps you have a one-hour drive (as I did yesterday).

Then you spend 15-30 minutes setting up the situation for the scenario. You place the scale in the bag of holding and head off.

GM: OK. You travel from Otari to the Grand Lodge in Absalom without incident. Here's your chronicle sheet. Thanks for playing. See you next week.

Other players: Is that it? Now what am I supposed to do? What a waste of time getting here just to get a chronicle sheet.

Grand Lodge 4/5

The GM could just rule that the box itself is too big to fit into the mouth of the type I bag of holding. That would not stop them from putting the Scale by itself in the bag.

There is also the fact that in the 3-4 Subtier, a type I bag of holding is found during the journey. Why is that there? Does it suggest that there is some reason for the Scale to not be allowed to be put in the bag as it could simply wipe out the rest of scenario? A sentence in the text block could address that quite well.

I think it is evident there is something missing here with the access to the type I bag of holding being part of the scenario.

Dark Archive

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I just ran this adventure on Saturday at Tier 3-4, and the players did in fact put everything that could reasonably fit inside the bag of holding. That's basically everything but the statues and some other items, but notably not the ebony box in question.

Since we're talking about the item, let me put the relevant bits here:

Archives of Nethys wrote:


Though it appears to be a cloth sack decorated with panels of richly colored silk or stylish embroidery, a bag of holding opens into an extradimensional space larger than its outside dimensions. The Bulk held inside the bag doesn’t change the Bulk of the bag of holding itself. The amount of Bulk the bag’s extradimensional space can hold depends on its type.

You can Interact with the bag of holding to put items in or remove them just like a mundane sack. Though the bag can hold a great amount of material, an object still needs to be able to fit through the opening of the sack to be stored inside.

If the bag is overloaded or broken, it ruptures and is ruined, causing the items inside to be lost forever. If it’s turned inside out, the items inside spill out unharmed, but the bag must be put right before it can be used again. A living creature placed inside the bag has enough air for 10 minutes before it begins to suffocate, and it can attempt to Escape against a DC of 13. An item inside the bag provides no benefits unless it’s retrieved first. An item in the bag can’t be detected by magic that detects only things on the same plane.

So, while the text is clear that an item inside the bag provides no benefits, it is somewhat looser in determining whether it causes drawbacks, such as what the Scale does in this adventure. As Gary mentions, dealing with the effects of this item is the crux of the adventure, and probably should not be so easily avoided by a L4 item. In fact, the mod calls out the Scale as an evil artifact. While we'll get full rules for artifacts in the Gamemastery Guide, I think it's safe to assume that such minor magic as the bag of holding isn't enough to avoid the detrimental effects of such a powerful item.

Liberty's Edge 3/5

and yet the scale was inside a box that was lined with lead that from what the text says stoped or limited the effects - to overrule this they have stated that the lead has shaken loose.

So mundane metal can block it but an extradimensional space can't? it smells to me like this is a massive oversight that has no in game answer - thankyou for your advice I am defiantly going to take it onboard.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber

The entire purpose of the clause "an object still needs to be able to fit through the opening of the sack to be stored inside" is so that the GM can prevent things from being put into the bag by saying they don't fit through the mouth. Notice that there are no dimensions specified for the mouth of the bag, so you can plausibly assume they come in different shapes and say that this particular bag's mouth is big enough to fit only e.g. small-diameter things like rolled-up scrolls or spears. This would allow you to prevent not only the ebony box (and the scale itself, if players took it out from the box) from being put in there, but also lots of other items.

By disallowing all the larger items on the cart from fitting into the bag, you can avoid pointing the players to which specific thing is the special item and the scenario proceeds without derailment or agonizing over the interaction between the artifact and the bag. The players will still achieve the success condition of "creative solutions to protect the items" because they did put some of the smaller things in the bag.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Meadow lark wrote:

and yet the scale was inside a box that was lined with lead that from what the text says stoped or limited the effects - to overrule this they have stated that the lead has shaken loose.

So mundane metal can block it but an extradimensional space can't? it smells to me like this is a massive oversight that has no in game answer - thankyou for your advice I am defiantly going to take it onboard.

Personally, I read that bit as "enough lead has shaken loose for detect magic to pick it up," not "enough lead has shaken loose for the Scale to work its misfortune effects." I agree, mundane metal probably shouldn't be able to prevent an artifact from doing its job.

Fun fact - I can find no reference in detect magic that lead stops an aura. That may be an artifact (no pun intended) of edition change, as from what I can tell, the only thing that stops detect magic is the range and line of effect. It's entirely possible by RAW that an artifact cannot be detected with detect magic if it's in a box. I won't swear to that, as my system mastery is spotty at the moment, but it's probably another weird corner case that has occurred since we're currently keeping two editions in mind.

5/5 Venture-Agent, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East aka Pirate Rob

The only reference to lead blocking divination type powers that I could find in the CRB was...

HUNTER’S BANE ITEM 2
CONSUMABLE DIVINATION MAGICAL TALISMAN
Price 6 gp
Usage affixed to armor; Bulk —
Activate [free-action] envision; Trigger An undetected enemy hits you with an attack; Requirements You are trained in Survival. This talisman is a ring of dried, interwoven leaves. When you activate the hunter’s bane, you sense the exact location of the attacker, making it hidden from you instead of undetected. If the attacker is behind lead, the hunter’s bane fails and is wasted.

Liberty's Edge 3/5

the locate spell states
If there’s lead or running water between you and the target, this spell can’t locate the object.

The Unrelenting Observation spell states
The tracking creatures can see the tracked creature or
object through all barriers other than lead or running water,
which block their vision.

but it does not seem to be just mentioned elsewhere in the game - so based on that info, running water and any amount of lead blocks Scrying and Divination magic - which is interesting to note.

so a magic sword, sitting on the floor behind a waterfall - is undetectable lol

Silver Crusade 5/5 ⦵⦵ Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria

I think a bag of holding should not be an "I win" option to solve issues within a scenario, though at the same time I would not want to suggest that the final encounter should burst said bag with all the consequences usually attached to that.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Sebastian Hirsch wrote:
I think a bag of holding should not be an "I win" option to solve issues within a scenario, though at the same time I would not want to suggest that the final encounter should burst said bag with all the consequences usually attached to that.

Yeah, I had the final encounter pull the Scale out of the bag of holding the party obtained in a previous encounter, box and all. I figure that it's an artifact, so it can cheat if it wants.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Meadow lark wrote:

the locate spell states

If there’s lead or running water between you and the target, this spell can’t locate the object.

The Unrelenting Observation spell states
The tracking creatures can see the tracked creature or
object through all barriers other than lead or running water,
which block their vision.

but it does not seem to be just mentioned elsewhere in the game - so based on that info, running water and any amount of lead blocks Scrying and Divination magic - which is interesting to note.

so a magic sword, sitting on the floor behind a waterfall - is undetectable lol

I'm not sure I agree with that inference. Sure, that's how those particular spells work, but I don't think you can extrapolate how all detection spells work based on those individual spells. It'd be like saying "these three spells with the Fire trait set targets on fire if they crit fail, so all Fire trait spells do that."

Community / Forums / Organized Play / GM Discussion / PFS(2) 1-04 Bandits of Immenwood All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.
Recent threads in GM Discussion