When selecting your familiar and master abilities for the day, can you select the same ability multiple times?
As far as I can see it does not say you specifically can or cannot, and some of the abilities wouldn't make sense taken multiple times, though others would.
I'm currently using an alchemist with enhanced familiar so being able to take additional reagents multiple times would be helpful, but I don't think it would be game breaking.
I'm not sure whether RAW allows it, but I'm pretty sure that is not the intent, because if it were then Fast Movement would be written as "increase one of its speeds by 15'" instead of "increase one from 25' to 40'".
Do you think a wizard would be able to take Familiar Focus twice? Or better yet, if a wizard had the Enhanced Familiar feat they could take it four times, and if they had the Familiar Attunement thesis they could take it 5 times at first level, giving them effectively 6 focus points.
No, I think that is clearly not intended and would break things.
EDIT: And that's not even mentioning the Spell Battery ability...
You can only take each ability 1x. I suspect there will be feats to augment this at some point.
Though i'm with you, i'd love to just stack master abilities!
And really is that so OP? i'm thinking noes.. meh, stupid "play balance" letting the weak bring us trailblazers down to their level. bah. BAH!
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Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote: I'm not sure whether RAW allows it, but I'm pretty sure that is not the intent, because if it were then Fast Movement would be written as "increase one of its speeds by 15'" instead of "increase one from 25' to 40'". If the intent is to be able to take them many times fast movement could be worded as such to prevent wizards from picking fast movement 7 times and spell delivery to deliver touch spells from 130' away.
Yeah I think as RAW it's unclear, and honestly, I'm not sure what the intent was. The familiar focus thing would be nice, sure, but you're spending 1 of your actions and having your familiar use all of theirs to gain a focus point, and that seems pretty steep/not so horrible. Also, it's unclear to me whether the "once per day" would still affect you even if you selected it twice.
Honestly, I don't know. I'm *guessing* the intent is that you can select something only once, but it's really not clear to me at all.
tivadar27 wrote: Yeah I think as RAW it's unclear, and honestly, I'm not sure what the intent was. The familiar focus thing would be nice, sure, but you're spending 1 of your actions and having your familiar use all of theirs to gain a focus point, and that seems pretty steep/not so horrible. Also, it's unclear to me whether the "once per day" would still affect you even if you selected it twice.
Honestly, I don't know. I'm *guessing* the intent is that you can select something only once, but it's really not clear to me at all.
Given that every feat that can be taken more than once says that explicitly under "Special", I'd think familiar abilities or anything else would say so as well if that were the intent.
Taking Spell Battery a bunch of times, for example, just seems like it wasn't intended to be possible. Familiar is only a 1st level feat. If a reading seems too good to be true, it is.
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Paradozen wrote: Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote: I'm not sure whether RAW allows it, but I'm pretty sure that is not the intent, because if it were then Fast Movement would be written as "increase one of its speeds by 15'" instead of "increase one from 25' to 40'". If the intent is to be able to take them many times fast movement could be worded as such to prevent wizards from picking fast movement 7 times and spell delivery to deliver touch spells from 130' away. Good point, I totally wasn't thinking about wizards with the Spiffy Familiar thesis. Well, that nullifies my original argument. But I'm still on the not-RAI side, and now also on the not-RAW side, from reading others' arguments. Though a cautiously homebrewing GM could get away with letting some of the abilities be taken 2-3 times, I think.
I had this question with Cantrip Connection: It says "designate a cantrip to add to your repertoire every time you select this ability". Saying "every time you select this ability" sure SOUNDS like you can take this one twice.
graystone wrote: I had this question with Cantrip Connection: It says "designate a cantrip to add to your repertoire every time you select this ability". Saying "every time you select this ability" sure SOUNDS like you can take this one twice. But it also says the bolded bit:
Quote: Cantrip Connection: You can prepare an additional cantrip, or if you have a repertoire, instead designate a cantrip to add to your repertoire every time you select this ability; you can retrain it but can’t otherwise change it. You must be able to prepare cantrips or add them to your repertoire to select this. I think the only way that bit makes sense is if you get to designate once a cantrip which is then added to your repertoire whenever you select that ability. You can retrain this choice but can't otherwise change it. So your repertoire is one cantrip bigger (available only when you take the ability) but doesn't have the option to take just any cantrip you want that day.
Admittedly, if I'm right on that, this would have been a good place to sacrifice a little page space and not phrase things in the most compact manner possible.
Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote: Paradozen wrote: Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote: I'm not sure whether RAW allows it, but I'm pretty sure that is not the intent, because if it were then Fast Movement would be written as "increase one of its speeds by 15'" instead of "increase one from 25' to 40'". If the intent is to be able to take them many times fast movement could be worded as such to prevent wizards from picking fast movement 7 times and spell delivery to deliver touch spells from 130' away. Good point, I totally wasn't thinking about wizards with the Spiffy Familiar thesis. Well, that nullifies my original argument. But I'm still on the not-RAI side, and now also on the not-RAW side, from reading others' arguments. Though a cautiously homebrewing GM could get away with letting some of the abilities be taken 2-3 times, I think. I've seen very little quoting of actual rules to indicated actual RAW here. There's been mentioning of specific abilities and how they *should* work. What arguments persuades you that it's clear RAW? It's not stated either way, unless there's something I'm missing.
Note that RAW doesn't have to be either A or B, it can be unclear, and therefor interpretable both ways by different individuals, meaning neither interpretation is strictly RAW. Kinda by definition, if enough people disagree on the wording, neither interpretation is RAW until the developers clarify.
Regarding the cantrip, I don't think the "every time you select this ability" is meant to indicate that you can select it multiple times, merely that you can select different abilities daily, so you can choose a new one each time you do that... It doesn't really support either interpretation.
The RAW stance on whether you can take a familiar ability more than once is a general "no" for the following reasons. Not in order of importance
1) presumed consistency: other game elements which can be taken multiple times are specific about that being the case, and familiar abilities have no such specificity.
2) ability wording: the majority of familiar abilities are worded in such a way that taking a second instance of an ability would not be functional or useful. Examples: A) "Flier: it gains a fly speed of 25 feet." if taken a second time, you'd have two fly Speeds of 25 feet, but you still only use one of your speeds each time you Stride so you have functionally received nothing by taking a second instance of Flier. B) Manual Dexterity; the "up to two" wording prevents this ability from being any more than up to two limbs because it's not additive in nature.
3) the apparent exception: cantrip connection seems like it includes language that mentions repeated selection of the same ability. I've come to believe that even it does not allow you to take multiple instances of it at the same time - instead, it appears to me that if you have a spell repertoire and take this ability you lock in a specific cantrip. That cantrip is then added to your repertoire on any day you choose cantrip connection as one of the abilities provided, until such a time as you retrain it.
My reasoning for that being the case, rather than being able to take this ability multiple times: the difference of using the word "every" rather than "each" in the context of the sentence.
tivadar27 wrote: Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote: Good point, I totally wasn't thinking about wizards with the Spiffy Familiar thesis. Well, that nullifies my original argument. But I'm still on the not-RAI side, and now also on the not-RAW side, from reading others' arguments. Though a cautiously homebrewing GM could get away with letting some of the abilities be taken 2-3 times, I think. I've seen very little quoting of actual rules to indicated actual RAW here. There's been mentioning of specific abilities and how they *should* work. What arguments persuades you that it's clear RAW? It's not stated either way, unless there's something I'm missing. Eh, probably just the repetition---but repeated RAI does not equal RAW, so my bad!
Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote: tivadar27 wrote: Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote: Good point, I totally wasn't thinking about wizards with the Spiffy Familiar thesis. Well, that nullifies my original argument. But I'm still on the not-RAI side, and now also on the not-RAW side, from reading others' arguments. Though a cautiously homebrewing GM could get away with letting some of the abilities be taken 2-3 times, I think. I've seen very little quoting of actual rules to indicated actual RAW here. There's been mentioning of specific abilities and how they *should* work. What arguments persuades you that it's clear RAW? It's not stated either way, unless there's something I'm missing. Eh, probably just the repetition---but repeated RAI does not equal RAW, so my bad! No worries. I'd agree that it's likely RAI, as I said previously. I don't think I'd have much of a problem with someone using the other interpretation though, as I don't think it's particularly game-breaking.
The RAW say, "two abilities." It doesn't say you can take the same ability twice. It doesn't NEED to say you can't.
Baarogue wrote: The RAW say, "two abilities." It doesn't say you can take the same ability twice. It doesn't NEED to say you can't. To offer a contrary example, the rules explicitly state you can't choose an ability boost for something that's already been boosted... So yeah, this means nothing. It does, if it used language like "you pick" or "you choose", I could see a mathematical argument, as those have particular meanings there, but it says select, and it doesn't say you select two distinct abilities. So it's ambiguous.
tivadar27 wrote: Baarogue wrote: The RAW say, "two abilities." It doesn't say you can take the same ability twice. It doesn't NEED to say you can't. To offer a contrary example, the rules explicitly state you can't choose an ability boost for something that's already been boosted... So yeah, this means nothing. It does, if it used language like "you pick" or "you choose", I could see a mathematical argument, as those have particular meanings there, but it says select, and it doesn't say you select two distinct abilities. So it's ambiguous. Those rules actually say, specifically
Ability Boosts, p 20 wrote: An ability boost normally increases an ability score's value by 2. then exceptions for above 18, no score over 18 at level 1, then
Quote: When your character receives an ability boost, the rules indicate whether it must be applied to a specific ability score or to one of two specific ability scores, or whether it is a "free" ability boost that can be applied to any ability score of your choice. However, when you gain multiple ability boosts at the same time, you must apply each one to a different score. It continues with the example of the Dwarf gaining boosts to Con and Wis, plus a free boost which can be applied to any score other than Con or Wis. (I'm glad you brought this up and led me to re-read this. I'd missed or forgotten that locked and free boosts couldn't be mixed.)
The use of the words "any ability score of your choice" are what require clarification.
tivadar27 wrote: Baarogue wrote: The RAW say, "two abilities." It doesn't say you can take the same ability twice. It doesn't NEED to say you can't. To offer a contrary example, the rules explicitly state you can't choose an ability boost for something that's already been boosted... So yeah, this means nothing. It does, if it used language like "you pick" or "you choose", I could see a mathematical argument, as those have particular meanings there, but it says select, and it doesn't say you select two distinct abilities. So it's ambiguous. It wouldn't make a lot of sense that the cantrip ability is specifically limited to a single cantrip, if the devs then intended Spell Battery to enable up to an additional 8 (yes, eight!) spell slots*.
*For a wizard with the Improved Familiar Attunement thesis and the Enhanced Familiar feat at 18th level.
IMO, it is very clearly not ok to take familiar abilities multiple times.
graystone wrote: I had this question with Cantrip Connection: It says "designate a cantrip to add to your repertoire every time you select this ability". Saying "every time you select this ability" sure SOUNDS like you can take this one twice. I think this ability is written this way because EACH DAY you can select different familiar and master abilities. Basically your familiar remains the same animal, but each day it can represent itself in many varying ways. One day it can fly, the next it might have darkvision, and it could have different cantrips on different days.
So you can only select "cantrip connection" once (each day) but each time you select it, you can use a different cantrip.
At least thats I how interpret it.
Grumpus wrote: So you can only select "cantrip connection" once (each day) but each time you select it, you can use a different cantrip.
you're missing the next part, where it says you can retrain it (like other class features) but not otherwise change it. So if you're a sorcerer and decide get "Acid Splash" from your pet snake, you can only ever get "Acid Splash" from your pet snake until you retrain it, and you can't get "Acid Splash" from your pet snake if you decide to give it wings for a day (snakes naturally have scent, so that takes up one of the abilities automatically).
Actually, I think this logically leads to not being able to pick the same ability more than once, because you could effectively gain every single cantrip over the course of a couple weeks and just be able to prepare whichever one or two you wanted after that. I haven't looked at every single tiny animal in the bestiary - so far the only one I can actually find is snake - but I imagine most of them naturally have one of the familiar abilities, so getting two abilities out of a familiar is already sort of difficult.
ofMars wrote: Grumpus wrote: So you can only select "cantrip connection" once (each day) but each time you select it, you can use a different cantrip.
you're missing the next part, where it says you can retrain it (like other class features) but not otherwise change it. So if you're a sorcerer and decide get "Acid Splash" from your pet snake, you can only ever get "Acid Splash" from your pet snake until you retrain it, and you can't get "Acid Splash" from your pet snake if you decide to give it wings for a day (snakes naturally have scent, so that takes up one of the abilities automatically).
Actually, I think this logically leads to not being able to pick the same ability more than once, because you could effectively gain every single cantrip over the course of a couple weeks and just be able to prepare whichever one or two you wanted after that. I haven't looked at every single tiny animal in the bestiary - so far the only one I can actually find is snake - but I imagine most of them naturally have one of the familiar abilities, so getting two abilities out of a familiar is already sort of difficult. Ahhh, you're right. I guess I thought the retraining referred to retraining done during the day, if you made a bad choice that morning, and needed a different cantrip later in the day. But I see how it works now, and agree that you can't pick the same ability twice.
ofMars wrote: Grumpus wrote: So you can only select "cantrip connection" once (each day) but each time you select it, you can use a different cantrip.
you're missing the next part, where it says you can retrain it (like other class features) but not otherwise change it. So if you're a sorcerer and decide get "Acid Splash" from your pet snake, you can only ever get "Acid Splash" from your pet snake until you retrain it, and you can't get "Acid Splash" from your pet snake if you decide to give it wings for a day (snakes naturally have scent, so that takes up one of the abilities automatically).
Actually, I think this logically leads to not being able to pick the same ability more than once, because you could effectively gain every single cantrip over the course of a couple weeks and just be able to prepare whichever one or two you wanted after that. I haven't looked at every single tiny animal in the bestiary - so far the only one I can actually find is snake - but I imagine most of them naturally have one of the familiar abilities, so getting two abilities out of a familiar is already sort of difficult. How is this any different from only selecting it once? You could still do the same thing, it just might take slightly longer.
EDIT: Also, I'm not sure I agree with you on the rules here. The wording here:
"designate a cantrip to add to your repertoire every time you select this ability"
"you can retrain it, but can't otherwise change it"
So, every time you select the ability means every day. You're implying that it actually means "the first time you select this ability", but that's not what it says. If we take the interpretation that you can select an ability multiple times, then that interpretation might make sense (every time you select this ability (for the first time)).
I don't think the following line makes a lot of sense unless you *can* select an ability more than once. Saying you can't change it does imply that it is consistent across days, but the wording in the previous sentence only really makes sense for that interpretation assuming you can select an ability more than once...
I don't by any means think this is definitive, as I think that ability is poorly worded, but yeah... I don't think it helps the "only once" argument either.
tivadar27 wrote: ... that interpretation might make sense (every time you select this ability (for the first time)). Huh?
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Baarogue wrote: The RAW say, "two abilities." It doesn't say you can take the same ability twice. It doesn't NEED to say you can't. There is still value in clarifying explicitly that you cannot normally take familiar abilities twice. The inference that you can take abilities twice because unlike feats familiars don't spell out that you get abilities up to one time each is not wholly unreasonable, it just happens to be poorly balanced and less supported than the inference that you cannot take abilities twice without exceptions. This isn't the first time this question has come up and if left unclassified I doubt it will be the last. Not a high priority, but I would hope to see this within the first two rounds of Errata.
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Grumpus wrote: QUOTE="graystone"]I think this ability is written this way because EACH DAY you can select different familiar and master abilities. Basically your familiar remains the same animal, but each day it can represent itself in many varying ways. One day it can fly, the next it might have darkvision, and it could have different cantrips on different days. Hang on. If a familiar should be able to fly, a bird or bat or whatever, you have to give it the fly ability, do you not? Are you suggesting that a familiar can take any form you choose, and you can change that choice on a daily basis?
Ed Reppert wrote: Grumpus wrote: QUOTE="graystone"]I think this ability is written this way because EACH DAY you can select different familiar and master abilities. Basically your familiar remains the same animal, but each day it can represent itself in many varying ways. One day it can fly, the next it might have darkvision, and it could have different cantrips on different days. Hang on. If a familiar should be able to fly, a bird or bat or whatever, you have to give it the fly ability, do you not? Are you suggesting that a familiar can take any form you choose, and you can change that choice on a daily basis? If your animal would have an ability you MUST take it [or 2 of them if you have more than that]. Now if you pick Hedgehog that has none of the abilities, you can have it fly one day, swim the next all while using scent or darkvision. To get the most out of your familiar, pick one that has no traits so you can actually pick instead of locking yourself into a single one.
Ed Reppert wrote: Grumpus wrote: QUOTE="graystone"]I think this ability is written this way because EACH DAY you can select different familiar and master abilities. Basically your familiar remains the same animal, but each day it can represent itself in many varying ways. One day it can fly, the next it might have darkvision, and it could have different cantrips on different days. Hang on. If a familiar should be able to fly, a bird or bat or whatever, you have to give it the fly ability, do you not? Are you suggesting that a familiar can take any form you choose, and you can change that choice on a daily basis? If the familiar flies because they are a raven they must choose fly. Otherwise you can pick abilities day to day. So a tortoise, for instance, could have flight one day and burrow the next. Flavor it however you like, my conjurer will bind elemental energies to their familiar for flight/burrow/amphibious/fast movement.
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A flying tortoise? The mind boggles!
Ed Reppert wrote: A flying tortoise? The mind boggles! His name is Tank.
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Sort of off topic but it goes to graystone's post.
One thing I really hate about PF2 familiars is this odd mix of customization and restriction. Your familiar's abilities are malleable, not based on any existing stat block, and can change from day to day.
...But your familiar must be an animal (no imps, sorry) and depending on which animal you pick certain choices end up locked in as a result.
It's a really bizarre mix where things are super open ended in most respects and then oddly restrictive in ways that don't seem to actually add anything.
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I'm still trying to figure out Corvo, a "fiendish shadow hawk" familiar that Ravingdork's 2E character Jihiro Pike procured "from the lower planes via a summoning ritual". To me, "shadow" implies some kind of shadow critter, but Corvo speaks infernal, not necril as shadows do. I suppose that's the "fiendish" part. Also have to wonder if there are animals on the lower planes, specifically Hell.
Squiggit wrote: Sort of off topic but it goes to graystone's post.
One thing I really hate about PF2 familiars is this odd mix of customization and restriction. Your familiar's abilities are malleable, not based on any existing stat block, and can change from day to day.
...But your familiar must be an animal (no imps, sorry) and depending on which animal you pick certain choices end up locked in as a result.
It's a really bizarre mix where things are super open ended in most respects and then oddly restrictive in ways that don't seem to actually add anything.
That's why I just want a familiar that's a primordial ooze that you shape every day instead of pretending it's a real animal: I'm fine with 'treating' it as an animal, but also shapeless mass of familiar too.
tivadar27 wrote:
How is this any different from only selecting it once? You could still do the same thing, it just might take slightly longer.
EDIT: Also, I'm not sure I agree with you on the rules here. The wording here:
"designate a cantrip to add to your repertoire every time you select this ability"
"you can retrain it, but can't otherwise change it"
So, every time you select the ability means every day. You're implying that it actually means "the first time you select this ability", but that's not what it says. If we take the interpretation that you can select an ability multiple times, then that interpretation might make sense (every time you select this ability (for the first time)).
We could try and grammatically analyze the sentence to figure out whether or not " every time you select this ability" is attached to the verb "designate" or the verb "add," and I'll give you that it's an unclear sentence, but it really comes down to the fact that they say that you can retrain it but not otherwise change it. If you could just choose a new cantrip everyday that you chose that ability, there would be no need to indicate that you need to retrain it. Why would I ever retrain my pet snake's acid Splash cantrip if I could just choose Ray of frost to the next day at no cost?
Squiggit wrote: It's a really bizarre mix where things are super open ended in most respects and then oddly restrictive in ways that don't seem to actually add anything. Agreed. Good place for houserules IMO. I don't mind if your raven loses flight for the day, it can sit on your shoulder or hop around.
BellyBeard wrote: Squiggit wrote: It's a really bizarre mix where things are super open ended in most respects and then oddly restrictive in ways that don't seem to actually add anything. Agreed. Good place for houserules IMO. I don't mind if your raven loses flight for the day, it can sit on your shoulder or hop around. I could see that, maybe you morph its wings into fins or digging claws. Maybe the extra alchemical regents weigh it down
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