How does Virtuosic Performer work exactly


Rules Discussion


So this a +1 circumstance bonus, say I took acting, it can only work for one specific type of Performance like to Demoralize and that's it? Would there be a specific type of Performance for Lingering Composition and the other focus powers?


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No.

You choose one type of performance e.g. acting, comedy, dance, etc.

When you perform using that type of performance (acting) you get a +1 (or more depending on you proficiency).

Anytime you make a performance of the appropriate type you get the bonus.

So if you have some ability that lets you Demoralize someone with Acting then it could apply, but it might not always apply, the GM decides. But anything you can do with the perform skill while making that specific kind of performance gets the +1. This includes things like earning income, or any other options you might be granted from other abilities where you can substitute perform.


Awesome thanks, it's better than I thought. Which type of Performance would you recommend for a Whip wielding (trip focused) Bard who will get Inspire Heroics.


Oratory is what you are looking for.

Epic, poetry and storytelling are definitely a thing.

I am going to use this on my redeemer champion, which is going to talk with anectodes, to win the defeated enemy.


I plan to get a Persona Mask, and I have the intimidating glare feat. Oratory wouldn't work for Demoralizing with intimidating Glare would it?


Atalius wrote:
I plan to get a Persona Mask, and I have the intimidating glare feat. Oratory wouldn't work for Demoralizing with intimidating Glare would it?

Nope.


Mellored wrote:
Atalius wrote:
I plan to get a Persona Mask, and I have the intimidating glare feat. Oratory wouldn't work for Demoralizing with intimidating Glare would it?
Nope.

Damn :( what would work with that?


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Atalius wrote:
I plan to get a Persona Mask, and I have the intimidating glare feat. Oratory wouldn't work for Demoralizing with intimidating Glare would it?

Nothing the Persona Mask can do will combine with Intimidating Glare. Intimidating Glare causes demoralize to lose the auditory trait and gain the visual trait.

The only type of performance that is visual is Dance. There is the Dancing Scarf though.

Edit: Maybe pantomime, which falls under acting would count.

It's as plausible as dancing intimidatingly that you could pantomime intimidatingly.


What are you using to get performance to allow you to intimidate anyways? I'm assuming Versatile Performance from polymath muse, but just wanting to confirm.

That's the only way I know to do it.

Personally I like the imagery of doing an intimidating dance to demoralize the enemy.


Yep Versatile Performance you got it! Pantomime ftw! Does Pantomiming have the manipulate trait? I'm just wondering if I'm grabbed I'll be out of commission.

Sczarni

Claxon wrote:
Personally I like the imagery of doing an intimidating dance to demoralize the enemy.

Krumping


Claxon wrote:

What are you using to get performance to allow you to intimidate anyways? I'm assuming Versatile Performance from polymath muse, but just wanting to confirm.

That's the only way I know to do it.

Personally I like the imagery of doing an intimidating dance to demoralize the enemy.

Same, apparently the best Performance is Acting because it gets a special benefit out of Versatile Performance.


And by special benefit I mean exclusive benefit.


Claxon wrote:


It's as plausible as dancing intimidatingly that you could pantomime intimidatingly.

Haka dance for dancing and the cut-your-throat or hanging-by-the-noose gesture for pantomime. :)


Eventually you could do a mix with both glare and the sound of a carillon.

Do you know the tv series scrubs?
I was thinking something like janitor's evil eye.


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Atalius wrote:
Claxon wrote:

What are you using to get performance to allow you to intimidate anyways? I'm assuming Versatile Performance from polymath muse, but just wanting to confirm.

That's the only way I know to do it.

Personally I like the imagery of doing an intimidating dance to demoralize the enemy.

Same, apparently the best Performance is Acting because it gets a special benefit out of Versatile Performance.

Acting is also the best because it is the only one other than Comedy that can be used for both auditory and visual performances. That matters when you're trying something like a Lingering Composition check and want it to apply to both auditory composition cantrips (Inspire Competence) and visual (House of Imaginary Walls) as well as both uses of Counter Peformance.


Would Virtuosic Performer (acting) apply to a lingering Inspire Courage?


Anyone know?


Virtuosic Performer (Acting) is a subset of Performance. You can't apply a bonus to a subset of a skill to the whole skill by stating you "do that" while using the skill.
You can't get the bonus of your Boots of Jumping to Grapple, Trip, Climb or Swim by stating you are jumping while doing it. Nope.
So, Virtuosic Performer (Acting) only apply at acting and at Impersonating through the use of Versatile Performance.


Edit: Performance (Acting) is a subset of Performance.


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Atalius wrote:
Would Virtuosic Performer (acting) apply to a lingering Inspire Courage?

Yes. Acting is both visual and auditory, and your performance type has to match the appropriate trait to any composition with V (auditory) or S (visual) components. Almost all the composition cantrips are V and therefore require an auditory type of performance, and that type will gain the VP bonus when used appropriately.

Look in the index for composition rules if you need to chain this together yourself. But effectively VP acting or VP comedy can apply their bonuses to every performance check required for a composition cantrip. This matters for Counter Performance, where VP singing or dancing wouldn’t help with the wrong auditory/visual attack.


Xenocrat wrote:
Atalius wrote:
Would Virtuosic Performer (acting) apply to a lingering Inspire Courage?

Yes. Acting is both visual and auditory, and your performance type has to match the appropriate trait to any composition with V (auditory) or S (visual) components. Almost all the composition cantrips are V and therefore require an auditory type of performance, and that type will gain the VP bonus when used appropriately.

Look in the index for composition rules if you need to chain this together yourself. But effectively VP acting or VP comedy can apply their bonuses to every performance check required for a composition cantrip. This matters for Counter Performance, where VP singing or dancing wouldn’t help with the wrong auditory/visual attack.

"You add a flourish to your composition to extend its benefits. If your next action is to cast a cantrip composition with a duration of 1 round, attempt a Performance check."

RAW it's not true. Lingering Composition asks for a Performance check, not a Performance (whatever you want) check. So it doesn't apply. The rules don't support your interpretation.


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SuperBidi wrote:
Xenocrat wrote:
Atalius wrote:
Would Virtuosic Performer (acting) apply to a lingering Inspire Courage?

Yes. Acting is both visual and auditory, and your performance type has to match the appropriate trait to any composition with V (auditory) or S (visual) components. Almost all the composition cantrips are V and therefore require an auditory type of performance, and that type will gain the VP bonus when used appropriately.

Look in the index for composition rules if you need to chain this together yourself. But effectively VP acting or VP comedy can apply their bonuses to every performance check required for a composition cantrip. This matters for Counter Performance, where VP singing or dancing wouldn’t help with the wrong auditory/visual attack.

"You add a flourish to your composition to extend its benefits. If your next action is to cast a cantrip composition with a duration of 1 round, attempt a Performance check."

RAW it's not true. Lingering Composition asks for a Performance check, not a Performance (whatever you want) check. So it doesn't apply. The rules don't support your interpretation.

You state the type of performance and that determines whether your item bonus and feat bonus apply. There’s no such thing as a generic performance. They’re done via some declared method.


Xenocrat wrote:
You state the type of performance and that determines whether your item bonus and feat bonus apply. There’s no such thing as a generic performance. They’re done via some declared method.

Can you quote a rule or you just made it up?

Also, Lingering Performance is not a composition. Its traits are Uncommon, Bard and Enchantment. It's a Focus Spell. So you aren't performing at the moment you use Lingering Composition (if I had any need to prove my point as you don't have anything to support yours).
So, at the same time, it proves that there are "generic performance checks" as you call them, so you're all wrong with your arguments.


SuperBidi wrote:
Xenocrat wrote:
You state the type of performance and that determines whether your item bonus and feat bonus apply. There’s no such thing as a generic performance. They’re done via some declared method.

Can you quote a rule or you just made it up?

Also, Lingering Performance is not a composition. Its traits are Uncommon, Bard and Enchantment. It's a Focus Spell. So you aren't performing at the moment you use Lingering Composition (if I had any need to prove my point as you don't have anything to support yours).
So, at the same time, it proves that there are "generic performance checks" as you call them, so you're all wrong with your arguments.

You’re right in about 20% of your rules disputes, but this isn’t one of your lucky days. I’m sorry you’re not capable of understanding this, good luck out there.


Pathfinder Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
SuperBidi wrote:
Can you quote a rule or you just made it up?

Core Rulebook page 250: "When you use an action that utilizes the Performance skill, it gains one or more traits relevant to the type of performance." The book then lists the types and which traits they correspond to, which you can map on to the list in Virtuosic Performer pretty easily.

The idea seems to be that every time you make a Performance check, you are doing some specific kind of performance. Some uses of performance are gated by trait (you have to use an auditory or a visual kind of performance for counter performance, depending on the trigger) but others aren't and Lingering Performance seems to be in the unrestricted category. I suspect that part of why Virtuosic Performer exists is to help with Lingering Performance/Inspire Heroics checks, which are pretty important to a bard but are dependent on a skill check that won't usually be an auto-succeed.

Edit: FWIW, the quoted text doesn't appear in the Archives of Nethys section for Performance, which left me pretty confused about how all these abilities worked together until I checked the relevant section of the book.


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Orithilaen wrote:
Edit: FWIW, the quoted text doesn't appear in the Archives of Nethys section for Performance, which left me pretty confused about how all these abilities worked together until I checked the relevant section of the book.

Damn, I hate when they don't put all the rules on AoN... Searching inside a book is so 20th century.

So, yeah, I recognize I was wrong.
It also means that you can always get the bonus from Virtuosic Performer as Lingering Performance doesn't state it uses the same type of Performance than the following Composition (unless there's another rule they forgot on AoN...).

Sczarni

SuperBidi wrote:
Orithilaen wrote:
Edit: FWIW, the quoted text doesn't appear in the Archives of Nethys section for Performance, which left me pretty confused about how all these abilities worked together until I checked the relevant section of the book.

Damn, I hate when they don't put all the rules on AoN... Searching inside a book is so 20th century.

So, yeah, I recognize I was wrong.
It also means that you can always get the bonus from Virtuosic Performer as Lingering Performance doesn't state it uses the same type of Performance than the following Composition (unless there's another rule they forgot on AoN...).

I've been burned by this a few times, too, and their search function doesn't seem to be working well as of late.

Plus, they did away with their old HTML style that listed the key words or names of the search (checking PF1 and SF still reveals things like "item-name-longsword", and such, whereas PF2 just lists generic letters and numbers).

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