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Paizo Employee Social Media Producer

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Saros Palanthios wrote:
I missed the Twitch stream, will the Sep 27 video go up on Youtube at some point?

Here is the video. I apologize for its delay: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1J6STHSrig

Now what's in the pipeline for this week and beyond?

This Friday Oct 4th at 4:00 p.m. Pacific we will have Creative Director James Jacobs & Developer Luis Loza sitting down with you all and showcasing the top 10 big lore changes that have happened between Pathfinder 1E & Pathfinder 2E!

Next week for Oct 11th we will then have an overview of the new Factions your adventurers can join or even destroy in the new Lost Omens Character Guide with Mark Seifter & Eleanor Ferron!


Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Payton Smith wrote:
I wish we had transcripts for folks. But sadly we don't have the resources internally to do that. As I'm only one person, unfortunately.

What, there's no cloning facility in Seattle? :-)


Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, Pawns, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Payton Smith wrote:
Here is the video. I apologize for its delay: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1J6STHSrig

That video is captioned (click the "cc" button) if someone is looking for just text.

But I suspect what is being asked for is a separate document that has the transcription separated from the video.

Brute force would allow a volunteer to slow down the video and type along as the transcription rolls past.
But perhaps there is some editing technology somewhere that will do it automatically.

Dark Archive

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Pawns, Rulebook Subscriber
CrystalSeas wrote:
Payton Smith wrote:
Here is the video. I apologize for its delay: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1J6STHSrig

That video is captioned (click the "cc" button) if someone is looking for just text.

But I suspect what is being asked for is a separate document that has the transcription separated from the video.

Brute force would allow a volunteer to slow down the video and type along as the transcription rolls past.
But perhaps there is some editing technology somewhere that will do it automatically.

If the automatic Youtube captions are good enough, Youtube has a transcript of the captions (automatic or otherwise). On desktop, they're in the ellipsis menu next to the Share and Save to playlist buttons


3Doubloons wrote:
If the automatic Youtube captions are good enough, Youtube has a transcript of the captions (automatic or otherwise). On desktop, they're in the ellipsis menu next to the Share and Save to playlist buttons

Ooo! I had no idea they had such a thing. Thanks for the tip! The auto-generated (it says) text is quite readable.


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Ed Reppert wrote:
Payton Smith wrote:
I wish we had transcripts for folks. But sadly we don't have the resources internally to do that. As I'm only one person, unfortunately.
What, there's no cloning facility in Seattle? :-)

It wouldn't do any good without fast growth. We need exact copies of the adult Payton, not a bunch of babies.

Scarab Sages

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Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber

I'd like part of the discussion to key on the success of the Second Darkness AP. Like how has the world reacted to learning about the drow, how is the elf/drow conflict going, has Telandia Edasseril married, what has happened to the Winter Council and the Lanternbears, have the drow reversed engineered the spell from Endless Night and infiltrated the surface further, if so where exactly, did Allevrah Azrinae's failure spark more than the usual political churn in Zirnakaynin, etc. Also, if there was darklands unrest sparked by that AP, how is it related to the Shensen & the other Silver Ravens being out of town in Tomorrow Must Burn?

Some minor questions:
So, who's the new management at The Rusty Dragon?

Westcrown has seen a lot of unrest; what's Amaya Kaijitsu up to these days?

How's Anastasia Romanova working out in Irrisen?

Any big developments in the non-Minkai parts of Tian Xia since the last time the setting looked in on it?

Assuming the Year of the Stolen Storm happened in the default Golarion, what efforts are underway to free the three still-trapped Elemental Lords of Good? In my head, the guardians of Marudshar were corrupted minions of Ranginori, and that valley might now be ripe for a visit! (That red-toned illustration on p54 of 9020 is still one of my all time favorites for being so evocative.)

Since certain of the orbs of dragonkind and runelords' swords and polearms have appeared lately, what other major artifacts have surfaced in the past ten campaign years? In general, do the artifacts of Golarion appear clustered in time, like how it was done in Age of Worms? By the same token, so DMs can avoid homebrewing something that will soon conflict with forthcoming material, are there any heretofore obscure artifacts from Artifacts & Legends that will soon appear in Paizo products?

Silver Crusade

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logic_poet wrote:
what has happened to the Winter Council and the Lanternbears,

Don't know about the Winter Council maybe but the current state of the Lanternbearers is described in the Adventurer's Guide.


Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Ed Reppert wrote:

Well, those rules apply to player characters. NPCs aren't necessarily restricted by them.

Edit: I think I see the problem. IMO, the Hellknight Armiger archetype applies to those who aspire to be a Hellknight, not a Hellknight signifer. I don't believe we have seen a path to that in 2E yet.

In PF1, the aspiring signifer only needed medium armor proficiency (plus either arcane armor training or Warrior Priest).

It appears I was wrong about this. Just got Lost Omens Character Guide and the Hellknight Armiger dedication is indeed a prerequisite for Hellknight Signifer. Which means that a Wizard or Sorcerer looking to become a Signifer has to meet the prerequisites for Hellknight Armiger, including being trained in heavy armor. So they will need to put three feats (three iterations of Armor Proficiency) into meeting that prerequisite.

When a Hellknight Armiger passes the Hellknight Test, he "becomes a full Hellknight" and receives his personal set of Hellknight Armor and the weapon of their order. Which is confusing, because some orders have more than one favored weapon. Anyway, a character cannot have both the Hellknight and Hellknight signifer archetypes. All this seems to indicate that a signifer is a "full Hellknight" even though in most orders (excepting only, afaik, the Order Of the Gate, where the precedence is reversed) any rank-and-file Hellknight outranks all rank-and-file signifiers. IAC signifers also get a mask, so I guess they won't necessarily wear their Hellknight armor. Or maybe they wear the mask under the armor, which seems a bit redundant.

"Spellcasting class feature" is a prerequisite for Hellknight signifer, so signifers must be drawn (at the moment at least) from the ranks of Bards, Clerics, Druids, Sorcerers, and Wizards.

Interestingly, 14 of the 20 major gods of Golarion may have lawful followers - who would be candidates for Hellknight base on their alignment.


Ed Reppert wrote:
"Spellcasting class feature" is a prerequisite for Hellknight signifer, so signifers must be drawn (at the moment at least) from the ranks of Bards, Clerics, Druids, Sorcerers, and Wizards.

Meaning Bards, Clerics, and Druids. Earliest non-human Sorcerers and Wizards could take Armiger is level 10. Earlier humans can take it is level 4, which is slightly better, but human Wizards can only ever join Order of the Gate (requiring dagger proficiency).


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I think I see a way for a non-human sorcerer or wizard to qualify for Hellknight Armiger Dedication by 6th level:

1st level ancestry feat: Appropriate weapon familiarity feat
2nd level class feat: Champion Dedication
3rd level general feat: Adopted Ancestry (Human)
4th level class feat: 1st Champion multiclassing feat
5th level ancestry feat: Natural Ambition with 2nd Champion multiclassing feat
6th level class feat: Hellknight Armiger Dedication

That takes care of gaining heavy armor proficiency as well as being able to take your second dedicatiion feat. The only thing in question is proficiency in the weapon of your order, which you would need to get from your class, your background, or your weapon familiarity feat if at all possible.


David knott 242 wrote:

5th level ancestry feat: Natural Ambition with 2nd Champion multiclassing feat

You cannot. Multiclass feats are only available via Archetype feats, which are all Feat 4 (Basic Devotion in case of Champion) or Feat 6 (Advanced Devotion).

You could theoretically take the Champion devotion path to take Armiger at 8th level, but that means you have to be Lawful Stupid alignment (Lawful for Armiger, Lawful Stupid because you're a Paladin). And you have to start with Str 14, Cha 14.


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Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Eventually, we will, I believe, have champions of all nine alignments, so LN and LE Champions will be possible.


Could you all take the hellknight discussion to its own thread please?

On topic for developer questions, how mobile are the various factions about the Inner Sea? I'm running a campaign in Nex soon, and other than the Pathfinder Lodge there isn't much that I can find elsewhere about the factions having a presence in the Impossible Lands. Is it plausible that there are some Magaambya Academics studying abroad on the other side of Garund? Would Knights of Lastwall have a presence there looking into recruiting Arazni? What are the odds of finding Firebrands and Hellknights in the region? I'm curious in case the players see the LOCG and want to make characters for those factions how difficult it is to tie them in/how much I need to diverge from canon.


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NemoNoName wrote:
David knott 242 wrote:

5th level ancestry feat: Natural Ambition with 2nd Champion multiclassing feat

You cannot. Multiclass feats are only available via Archetype feats, which are all Feat 4 (Basic Devotion in case of Champion) or Feat 6 (Advanced Devotion).

You could theoretically take the Champion devotion path to take Armiger at 8th level, but that means you have to be Lawful Stupid alignment (Lawful for Armiger, Lawful Stupid because you're a Paladin). And you have to start with Str 14, Cha 14.

Oops -- I did miss the part about the class feat granted by Natural Ambition having to be a 1st level feat. That would push the earliest level at which you can take Hellknight Armiger Dedication up to 8th level.

But I am wondering how much longer that Lawful Good restriction would be in place. I would be surprised if Lost Omens Gods and Magic doesn't provide some relief in that area.

Paizo Employee Social Media Producer

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This Pathfinder Friday (10/11/2019) will be about the factions in the Lost Omens Character Guide. We will be joined by Designer Mark Seifter, Developer Eleanor Ferron, and additionally Developer Luis Loza. You get three folks this time ready to take on your questions about the Lost Omens Character guide.

Do you have any questions for them to answer on stream today at 4 p.m. Pacific? They'll be focusing primarily on the factions in the book. Such as the Hellknights, Society, Firebands, and so on. But I'm sure we can elaborate a bit more on other sections of the book.

Paizo Employee Social Media Producer

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This weeks Pathfinder Friday (Oct 18, 2019) will be all about The Gamemastery Guide! We last did a preview of what's coming in the book with Logan Bonner in the past. But I feel that people wanted to know more about it.

So our new Pathfinder Designer, Lyz Liddel will be joining Designer Mark Seifter in going over the Gamemastery Guide. Specifically the sections Lyz herself worked on.

So feel free to leave any questions about the Gamemastery Guide, or any questions for Lyz herself, so we can ask some of them on stream!


Payton Smith wrote:

This weeks Pathfinder Friday (Oct 18, 2019) will be all about The Gamemastery Guide! We last did a preview of what's coming in the book with Logan Bonner in the past. But I feel that people wanted to know more about it.

So our new Pathfinder Designer, Lyz Liddel will be joining Designer Mark Seifter in going over the Gamemastery Guide. Specifically the sections Lyz herself worked on.

So feel free to leave any questions about the Gamemastery Guide, or any questions for Lyz herself, so we can ask some of them on stream!

Are there plans to include an expansion of the more narrative-driving rules included in the Core?

Example: Degrees of success, fail forward, hero points.

If so, any previews you can give?


Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Starfinder Superscriber

(Can anyone help condense this topic/question to something that can be asked in the stream, I know its too rambling/verbose at present)

I know you've talked about how the GMG ha guidelines for building mini-games/challenges/point-system abstractions, does it also include guidelines for weaving those effectively into the intersection of lore, narrative, and rules?

'Stopping a ritual' seems like a semi-common plot device as a capstone of an module/chapter/etc. However, it looks like any interruption in the primary caster's attention to the ritual is enough to cause it to fail, without needing a mini-game. So when designing a mini-game is it a developer's job to ensure that the accrual of points is figuring out the way to gain access/interrupt the primary caster, rather than 'stopping the ritual' as the goal. Or do you need to create a 'not-a-ritual' elaborate ongoing casting thing to use instead, since the ritual rules are limiting for that style of story telling?

Paizo Employee Designer

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I'm really excited about this Friday's Paizo Friday! Lyz told me she wants to show you guys something really cool that I'm sure you're going to enjoy, so be sure to catch the episode, or if you miss it, be sure to ask your favorite Paizo Friday watcher after the fact!


Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

The CRB shows each non-spellcasting class getting a class feat at first level. Non of the spell-casting classes get a class feat at first level. Except wizard. I have heard a rumor that this is actually incorrect, that only some wizards get a class feat at first level. Something to do with Universalist vs. School Specialist wizards, but I don't remember which way 'round it's supposed to be. Can someone confirm this rumor?

Second question: do spellcasting class archetype dedications grant the "spellcasting class feature"?

Liberty's Edge

Ed Reppert wrote:
The CRB shows each non-spellcasting class getting a class feat at first level. Non of the spell-casting classes get a class feat at first level. Except wizard. I have heard a rumor that this is actually incorrect, that only some wizards get a class feat at first level. Something to do with Universalist vs. School Specialist wizards, but I don't remember which way 'round it's supposed to be. Can someone confirm this rumor?

I don't have time at the moment to find a reference, but this has been confirmed as correct by folks at Paizo several times. Universalists receive a 1st level Feat as one of their advantages instead of getting a Focus Spell (a fact listed under Universalist), but no other Wizard receives a Class Feat at 1st level.


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Ed Reppert wrote:

So they will need to put three feats (three iterations of Armor Proficiency) into meeting that prerequisite.

it's kind of bizarre. It turns the best entry into Signifer the Druid and Warpriest Cleric.

I always got the impression from the lore that Signifers drew a lot of their ranks from wizards and sorcerers and that a druid signifer would be pretty damn rare, but the requirements for the PF2 version point in the opposite direction.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Squiggit wrote:
Ed Reppert wrote:

So they will need to put three feats (three iterations of Armor Proficiency) into meeting that prerequisite.

it's kind of bizarre. It turns the best entry into Signifer the Druid and Warpriest Cleric.

I always got the impression from the lore that Signifers drew a lot of their ranks from wizards and sorcerers and that a druid signifer would be pretty damn rare, but the requirements for the PF2 version point in the opposite direction.

Granted, just because it's easier/allowed on the mechanics side of thing doesn't mean that's reflected lorewise.

Lorewise I can safely say there's no Hellknight Druids.


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Rysky wrote:

Granted, just because it's easier/allowed on the mechanics side of thing doesn't mean that's reflected lorewise.

Lorewise I can safely say there's no Hellknight Druids.

I don't see how you can make this kind of claim. That might've been true in 1e, but obviously now Hellknights avoid Wizards and Sorcerers, and prefer Druids.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber
Druid wrote:

The following acts are anathema to all druids:

Using metal armor or shields.

I mean, I'm not sure, because it never is actually written anywhere, but Hellknight armor to me sure looks like it's metal.


There is no requirement to actually wear Hellknight armour that I know of.

Also:
https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=142
https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=145

Liberty's Edge

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Squiggit wrote:
I always got the impression from the lore that Signifers drew a lot of their ranks from wizards and sorcerers and that a druid signifer would be pretty damn rare, but the requirements for the PF2 version point in the opposite direction.

Signifers in the lore are also almost universally human. A Human Sorcerer or Wizard can hit Heavy Armor Proficiency by 5th level.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber
NemoNoName wrote:

There is no requirement to actually wear Hellknight armour that I know of.

Also:
https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=142
https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=145

Playing a Hellknight (a lawful character, so order is important to them) without wearing Hellknight armor smells cheesy.

Yeah, dragonhide, darkwood,... exist. They are also Level 12+ materials.

Dark Archive

NemoNoName wrote:

There is no requirement to actually wear Hellknight armour that I know of.

Also:
https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=142
https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=145

That is rules thing, not lore thing though.(though quite lot of hellknight abilities are about being better at using hellknight plate)

Like there is example of them adding hell knight theme template to changeling exile and doing adjuscations because changeling exile is based on druid and wouldn't use metal armor.

"Changeling Hellknight
This more advanced sample creature was built by applying the Hellknight template to a changeling exile (Pathfinder Bestiary 62) and then further altering the creature to better fit the intended concept. Since metal armor is anathema for druids, this character has replaced her druid spells with spells from a primal sorcerer bloodline and replaced her druid staff with a metal halberd."

Also, lore wise signifers, regardless of whether they were wizards, sorcerers or cleris, used hellknight plate as well. Hellknight signifer has always kinda meant to be heavy armor caster.


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Franz Lunzer wrote:
Yeah, dragonhide, darkwood,... exist. They are also Level 12+ materials.

So? Armiger itself is a 10th level feat unless you are playing a human and invest both Heritage and Ancestry Feat into getting Armour Proficiency.

In total, I'd say Bard is probably the best way to get into Signifer.

Not to mention Wizards can only join Order of the Gate.


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Rysky wrote:

Granted, just because it's easier/allowed on the mechanics side of thing doesn't mean that's reflected lorewise.

Lorewise I can safely say there's no Hellknight Druids.

That's fair, but I think lore and mechanics should inform each other too. If world says that an organization has a large number of wizards in its ranks and few to no druids, but the mechanics encourage druids to join and make it highly onerous and expensive for wizards, it creates a kind of a dissonance that seems problematic.

Anyways kind of getting off topic, so that's the last I'll say on this right now.


Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
NemoNoName wrote:
Not to mention Wizards can only join Order of the Gate.

Oh? Where is that written?


Ed Reppert wrote:
Oh? Where is that written?

Armiger requires proficiency with weapons of the order. Order of the Gate is the only one with weapon that Wizards are proficient with. If you're spending feats to gain Armour Proficiency, you don't have feats to also get Weapon Proficiencies necessary for other Orders.

As a bonus, even if you got those feats, they'd become obsolete on reaching level 11.


Ed Reppert wrote:
NemoNoName wrote:
Not to mention Wizards can only join Order of the Gate.
Oh? Where is that written?

It's not. More accurate to say that you need proficiency with your Order's weapon to become a Hellknight and Gate is the only one Wizards can buy into innately.

Although in defense of that comment, the prerequisites to buy into an order with a martial weapon end up becoming really extreme (I mean, they're pretty extreme even if you're okay with Gate, but.. moreso here) and unless you're using fighter dedication to qualify you can't actually advance your weapon's proficiency as a hellknight (because why would you want that??).

Silver Crusade

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NemoNoName wrote:
Rysky wrote:

Granted, just because it's easier/allowed on the mechanics side of thing doesn't mean that's reflected lorewise.

Lorewise I can safely say there's no Hellknight Druids.

I don't see how you can make this kind of claim. That might've been true in 1e, but obviously now Hellknights avoid Wizards and Sorcerers, and prefer Druids.

I can indeed safely make the claim that Lorewise there are no Hellknight Druids. They don't get along on really any level.

As Squiggit points yes the mechanics should support the lore, but just because a certain combo works mechanically does not mean you're going to be seeing in-setting as things (*points to Create Water Cantrip in P1*, which is no longer the case).

Right now it costs a couple of feats for Wizards to be Hellknights. So all Signifers are pretty high level... which they've kinda always been presented as. So it's costly, but by no means impossible nor rare.


Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

It seems to me that setting up game rules to "break" some in-setting thing or other - like now "signifers can only join the Order of the Gate" is a bad move.

Liberty's Edge

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The more I think about it, the more I think we need an alternate Hellknight Armiger option for Signifers that just gives many of the required Proficiencies.

That'd solve all the issues in question, IMO.

Silver Crusade

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Ed Reppert wrote:
It seems to me that setting up game rules to "break" some in-setting thing or other - like now "signifers can only join the Order of the Gate" is a bad move.

?

Liberty's Edge

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Rysky wrote:
Ed Reppert wrote:
It seems to me that setting up game rules to "break" some in-setting thing or other - like now "signifers can only join the Order of the Gate" is a bad move.
?

In order to get Armiger you need the Order weapon and Heavy Armor. For a Wizard that's three General Feats...four General Feats for anything but Gate since you need a martial weapon for the other Orders.

Even the three Feats is tricky to get to in a reasonable time frame, making the four unlikely in many ways. Saying they can only manage Gate is hyperbole, but it's not from out of nowhere.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Deadmanwalking wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Ed Reppert wrote:
It seems to me that setting up game rules to "break" some in-setting thing or other - like now "signifers can only join the Order of the Gate" is a bad move.
?

In order to get Armiger you need the Order weapon and Heavy Armor. For a Wizard that's three General Feats...four General Feats for anything but Gate since you need a martial weapon for the other Orders.

Even the three Feats is tricky to get to in a reasonable time frame, making the four unlikely in many ways. Saying they can only manage Gate is hyperbole, but it's not from out of nowhere.

*nods*

So level 15 for non-human wizards but 11 for humans (11 and 7 for Gate). That’s quite a bit of hyperbole.


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Deadmanwalking wrote:
For a Wizard that's three General Feats...four General Feats for anything but Gate since you need a martial weapon for the other Orders.

Four for an order with a simple weapon. Five for an order with a martial weapon (because Wizards don't have simple weapon proficiency naturally so it's two feats).

So using general feats, a nonhuman wizard who wants to join an Order with a martial weapon can do it with their level 20 class feat by spending literally all their general feats on proficiencies (most of which you'll never actually use, I'm glad PF2 doesn't have feat taxes).

Obviously you probably don't want to do that. So instead buy Champion Dedication for your armor training and spend your third and seventh level general feats for Martial Weapon Proficiency. Burn your 4th and 6th level class feats on whatever you want from the Champion so you can pick up Armiger at 8 and Signifer at 10. This is actually probably the best path for humans too, so being human doesn't actually make you any better at qualifying for this PrC.

You can do this with Fighter dedication for weapons instead, but then you need three general feats worth of armor, so you're pushing Armiger back to 12 and Signifer to 14 unless you're human.

So, definitely not impossible, but you're looking at two general feats and a class feat just to meet the basic proficiencies to qualify for your Order (nevermind the feats you need to exit your multiclass) and the best you can hope for is taking a level 2 feat at level 8. That doesn't feel super great in a game where feats scale in power with level.

Funny enough, Champion Dedication is the fastest way for anyone who isn't a versatile human to qualify for any flavor Signifer period, not just Order of the Gate. So the problem here isn't even that you're trying to jury rig a martial weapon onto a wizard.

The proficiency system in this game is a tortured mess.

Liberty's Edge

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Rysky wrote:

*nods*

So level 15 for non-human wizards but 11 for humans (11 and 7 for Gate). That’s quite a bit of hyperbole.

Humans can manage both much quicker than that, grabbing all the needed Feats by 3rd level for Gate, and 5th or 7th for other Orders.

But it is quite Feat intensive.

Other Ancestries is depends on the Order and Ancestry. Those who can grab their Order's weapon with an Ancestry Feat can manage by 11th regardless of Order...but 11th is pretty late to be grabbing a 2nd level Dedication Feat that isn't even the Dedication you actually want.

Squiggit wrote:
Four for an order with a simple weapon. Five for an order with a martial weapon (because Wizards don't have simple weapon proficiency naturally so it's two feats).

You're quite right, yes. 5 for some Orders. Sorcerers need one less, of course.

Squiggit wrote:
So using general feats, a nonhuman wizard who wants to join an Order with a martial weapon can do it with their level 20 class feat by spending literally all their general feats on proficiencies (most of which you'll never actually use, I'm glad PF2 doesn't have feat taxes).

I dunno about never using them. The only reason to do this is to wear Heavy Armor, so you're probably going Str over Dex and will get some use out of them.

It's very frustrating that it's so Feat intensive to get something that's of very minimal utility, though, I must agree.

Squiggit wrote:
The proficiency system in this game is a tortured mess.

Here I don't agree. The mess is in the fact that there's no good lead in to Signifer that helps with the problem, more than the inherent way Proficiency works.


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Since your weapon proficiency won't advance, using these weapons is definitively a bad idea at levels we are talking about.

And having a convoluted path to allow you to take a low-level archetype at high levels is essentially not being to do it.
Will there be people who do it? Sure. But it's such a corner case of a corner case that for practical purposes, it is impossible right now.

There'll be a few Human Wizards paying up the Armour Proficiency tax to get into Armiger early, and maybe a few more going Champion dedication route (note: these Wizards won't be able to wear Hellknight armour without penalties until level 10 because of Str and Cha needing to start at 14).
All in all, these mechanics mean there will be more Bards, Warclerics and Druids joining than Sorcerers or Wizards. In the end, these mechanics tell me that in lore, Hellknights have restricted Wizards from being able to join.

Or to put it another way:
P1 These mechanics describe a specific lore segment: Hellknight organisation
P2 Developers are competent and they designed the mechanics to represent lore correctly
P3 Wizards require such a huge investment to be able to enter, and at later point that other classes
QED Wizards are not expected / encouraged to join the organisation

Liberty's Edge

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Weapons are not 'most of' the Proficiencies. Armor is, and you'll use that.

Though that said, I do agree the requirements are overly stringent. By quite a bit.


Deadmanwalking wrote:

Weapons are not 'most of' the Proficiencies. Armor is, and you'll use that.

Though that said, I do agree the requirements are overly stringent. By quite a bit.

Errr, what? I never said anything about weapons being 'most of' the proficiencies?

Note also that Armour also doesn't advance automatically and requires additional feat.
But given you're starting with low Dex, heavy armour is still beneficial.

Liberty's Edge

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NemoNoName wrote:
Errr, what? I never said anything about weapons being 'most of' the proficiencies?

No, but Squiggit said you'd 'never actually use' most of your Proficiencies, which was what I responded to in the post above yours.

NemoNoName wrote:

Note also that Armour also doesn't advance automatically and requires additional feat.

But given you're starting with low Dex, heavy armour is still beneficial.

Yup.

I'm actually surprised Armiger is required for the other Hellknight stuff. I seem to remember getting the impression from someone at Paizo that you could skip it if you wanted. Is it being in the prerequisites perhaps an error? That'd free up a lot of options if true...


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Deadmanwalking wrote:
I dunno about never using them. The only reason to do this is to wear Heavy Armor, so you're probably going Str over Dex and will get some use out of them.

Never might be an overstatement, but you'll probably not do much with the extra simple weapons and your martial weapons depreciate in value since they never advance to expert. Light and Medium armor proficiences might see some use, but only as stopgaps until you get higher up the chain. There's definitely a taxlike quality here.

Quote:
Here I don't agree. The mess is in the fact that there's no good lead in to Signifer that helps with the problem, more than the inherent way Proficiency works.

Well, that's why I think it's a mess, because this is kind of a theme across PF2. Buying into proficiencies has disproportionate costs compared to the actual benefits. We see it here with how expensive it is to buy into Armiger, but we see it with how hard it is to get scaled martial weapons on a bard, sorcerer, cleric or whatever too (but not from level 1-10. It's only at exactly level 11 that it becomes broken for a bard to use a battle axe, for uh... reasons).

Not to mention oddities like Unconventional Weaponry making it easier for a Sorcerer to get proficiency with a Katana than with a Longsword, as long as the Sorcerer isn't from Tian Xia.


So a brutish shove gives you the effect of a shove if you hit (or a critical succes shove, if the hit was a crit). But what happens when you also have polearm crit specialization?

Do both trigger? And do you apply both or only the highest?

Does one trigger first and the second only if you are still in range? If so which triggers first?


Rekijan wrote:

So a brutish shove gives you the effect of a shove if you hit (or a critical succes shove, if the hit was a crit). But what happens when you also have polearm crit specialization?

Do both trigger? And do you apply both or only the highest?

Does one trigger first and the second only if you are still in range? If so which triggers first?

I'm under the impression that the Pathfinder Fridays folks aren't interested in dealing with detailed rules questions. You'd probably do better posting in the Rules Discussion forum. (Apologies if you already have and I missed it.)

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