Hi there,
I was checking how Lay on hand scales, and now I am wondering if I had missed something.
The problem is, a Lay on hand spell will heal about slightly less than 1/5 of my total hp, which is 330 hp, at lvl 19.
A heightened heal spell lvl 5, or even 4, will heal for the same amount.
Did i miss something?
Is that the skill scales in a stupid way?
Do I have to add Charisma mod?
I know that an empowered heal cost 2 actions instead of one and needs 1 free hand, but still if the max amount of heal is that low, i guess it wont be a good investement.
I say that because, even if it its true that having a higher pool of focus points at lower lvl could be useful, if the more we advance the less the scaling is effective, the it is not worth.
Unless ofc you take thr monk path to replace your heal with a 33% more effective one.
You may have missed the non-healing effect that is built into lay on hands, which means it's healing logically should be less potent than a spell of similar level that only provides healing.
Or that the Champion gets this as a side-feature rather than a main-focus of the class' ability set because the class is primarily a 'tank' or 'damage' style of thing rather than a 'healer' by design.
You don't add any bonuses to the healing, nor roll dice (unless dealing damage to undead with it), so you didn't miss anything there.
...there's also a feat that boosts the healing done if you use it on your mount, so that's cool.
But yes, at maximum potential a paladin is probably going to have 340-ish hit points and lay on hands is only going to heal 60 if used on them self. The spell is more useful by design if used on allies instead, because the Champions that get it are meant to not be selfish.
Indeed, but even if in a scenario which sees a Monster of your same level, the extra armor effect is not worth the extra healings, at least to me.
I knew about the feat which enhances the healing on your mount, but I see 2 Major problems here:
- shield and weapons divine allies are way better
- you have to waste a class talent ( because let us be honest, if you Pick something like that you are wasting not only your divine ally but a class feat too ).
It is Sad to have a skill which heals less at lvl 19 than what you can do by multiclassing cleric or druid or bard by lvl 14
K1 wrote: Indeed, but even if in a scenario which sees a Monster of your same level, the extra armor effect is not worth the extra healings, at least to me.
I knew about the feat which enhances the healing on your mount, but I see 2 Major problems here:
- shield and weapons divine allies are way better
- you have to waste a class talent ( because let us be honest, if you Pick something like that you are wasting not only your divine ally but a class feat too ).
It is Sad to have a skill which heals less at lvl 19 than what you can do by multiclassing cleric or druid or bard by lvl 14
what?
one "costs" you 1 feat, and it's replenishable, thus usable multiple times per day.
the other costs like 4 feats+ and it's only usable once per day.
What shroudb said.
Lay on Hands is also one action, so should be compared to the 1-action version of Heal, which it beats. So even in terrible situations like being stunned or slowed, you can cure yourself and get in a swing.
And gain a sizable AC bonus too.
Lay on Hands pretty much makes Champions the toughest warrior since that catches them up to a Barbarian's hit points, but with a Champion's AC.
And it heals after every 10-minute lull, which is great at early levels before Medicine speeds up.
I don't know how you got the expectations you did.
And there's nothing to stop you from getting healing from as many sources as you'd like.
The biggest difference-maker for me is the fact that it is replenishing. If given the time, Lay on Hands trivializes out of combat healing. Milage may vary, as a lot of GMs won't let sitting around for a few hours at a time slide for long.
The replinishment works at low lvl.
When your hp pool increase and you need higher healing spells, it doesn't care if you can recovery 1 point focus by praying for 10 mins, if you can't reach the rest because your healing didn't let you survive the fight.
It is Nice Early and maybe midgame, but the more you progress, the worst the effect.
Also, there are issues with getting healings by multiclassing, since you unlock too late ( if the campaign manage to bring you there ) higher lvl slot.
You will unlock lvl 7 at 18th and lvl 8 at 20th. It is right that you are supposed to be no match for a base spellcaster class, but really, you won't be using any spell by multiclassing.
U will hit lvl 4 spells by lvl 12.
And lvl 7 by 18.
I mean, it is ok you will have 1x instead of 3x. You can't say there are other ways to get healings.
Also the talent which gives you extra slots, apart from the higher 2 tiers.
Ok, at lvl 11 you will have 1 extra lvl 1 slot. Guess you see what the problem is, or eventually what my point is, in terms of getting healings.
And there is currently no way to increase your divine spells like arcane.
Not to mention that I will have to put get 1 free hand to cast somatic spells. So again it's something which requires you 1 action to seathe and 1 to unseathe your weapon/item.
This without considering signature spells, number of slots available, and the lvl you unlock them.
Finally, unless you hit lvl 19 or waste class talents for a focus spell one, you won't be able to cast more than 1 Lay on hand per rest.
K1 wrote: Not to mention that I will have to put get 1 free hand to cast somatic spells. So again it's something which requires you 1 action to seathe and 1 to unseathe your weapon/item. You don't need a free hand to cast somatic spells.
A somatic cast has the manipulate trait, which means you have to have at least one free hand, isn't it?
Quote: The spell components, described in detail below, add traits and requirements to the Cast a Spell activity. If you can’t provide the components, you fail to Cast the Spell.
Material (manipulate)
Somatic (manipulate)
Verbal (concentrate)
Focus (manipulate)
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Somatic component, CRB p. 303 wrote: A somatic component is a specific hand movement or gesture that generates a magical nexus. The spell gains the manipulate trait and requires you to make gestures. You can use this component while holding something in your hand, but not if you are restrained or otherwise unable to gesture freely.
Spells that require you to touch the target require a somatic component. You can do so while holding something as long as part of your hand is able to touch the target (even if it’s through a glove or gauntlet).
Specific beats general.
Also I feel like you're missing the following:
Lay on hands >for one action< heals 6 hp / level.
Heal >for one action< heals on average 4.5 hp / level (healing hands = 5.5)
It's only the two action heal that heals a lot more, and it's probably not fair to compare the healing of the two beyond that. Lay on Hands is a much better in-combat healing spell for someone who wants to take 2 attacks then heal.
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God forbid a Champion need other party members to help them keep their HP up.....
Lay on hand is 6 hp per spell lvl. Not per lvl.
However, I would be ok with a choice between 1 or 2 action Lay on hand. Eventually trading the whole ac stuff ( which won't necessarily save an ally ).
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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
K1 wrote: Lay on hand is 6 hp per spell lvl. Not per lvl.
However, I would be ok with a choice between 1 or 2 action Lay on hand. Eventually trading the whole ac stuff ( which won't necessarily save an ally ).
No, but it can. It saved an ally a couple nights ago, in fact, from an attack roll that almost certainly would have dropped him. And if you use it on yourself, you go from the highest AC class in the game to even harder to hit.
It is a solid spell with a different niche than divine font. You're comparing apples to oranges and insisting they are both apples here. Heal is best for a backrow caster to safely heal an ally from a distance. Lay on Hands is most effective when used on yourself or someone holding the front line next to you, which is where the Champion excels.
Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Yeah this is a bit like complaining ki blast isn't as good as a spell slot evocation. You are ignoring the entire context of its existence.
Captain Morgan wrote: [
And if you use it on yourself, you go from the highest AC class in the game to even harder to hit.
As a sidenote, I think the spell specifies that only allies get the Status boost to AC. In P2 I don't think you are your own ally anymore. So I think it will only heal the Champion, not AC boost.
I gotta agree, it is pretty fan fricking tastic for saving allies IMO though. 2AC can be hust huge benefit in many cases.
Well at least i"m pretty sure you don't count as your own ally. Would be nice though, a lot of abilities would get tastier. There was a thread about counting as your own ally back in August I think.
I'll have to go dig that up on my break and double check.
Zwordsman wrote: Captain Morgan wrote: [
And if you use it on yourself, you go from the highest AC class in the game to even harder to hit.
As a sidenote, I think the spell specifies that only allies get the Status boost to AC. In P2 I don't think you are your own ally anymore. So I think it will only heal the Champion, not AC boost.
I gotta agree, it is pretty fan fricking tastic for saving allies IMO though. 2AC can be hust huge benefit in many cases.
Well at least i"m pretty sure you don't count as your own ally. Would be nice though, a lot of abilities would get tastier. There was a thread about counting as your own ally back in August I think.
I'll have to go dig that up on my break and double check. indeed.
in pf2 you specifically AREN'T your own Ally anymore. it is spelled quite clearly.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Maps, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Page 456 and the Glossodex both state that you are no longer your own ally. Which is something I personally didn't realize but am glad I now know =)
Back to the topic at hand. I like lay on hands. It's a good spell and the fact you can 10-minute repeat it outside a fight is awesome. It's kinda a weird complaint you have going here, considering most other martial classes don't have any sort of self-healing ability and somehow they all have to survive as well. They also tend to have slightly weaker defenses. You making it out to seem like you won't survive without more healing while have good hp and the best AC/Fortitude in the game is a pretty weird complaint when there will be allies who can heal you up both in the fight and outside the fight.
Captain Morgan wrote: K1 wrote: Lay on hand is 6 hp per spell lvl. Not per lvl.
However, I would be ok with a choice between 1 or 2 action Lay on hand. Eventually trading the whole ac stuff ( which won't necessarily save an ally ).
No, but it can. It saved an ally a couple nights ago, in fact, from an attack roll that almost certainly would have dropped him. And if you use it on yourself, you go from the highest AC class in the game to even harder to hit.
It is a solid spell with a different niche than divine font. You're comparing apples to oranges and insisting they are both apples here. Heal is best for a backrow caster to safely heal an ally from a distance. Lay on Hands is most effective when used on yourself or someone holding the front line next to you, which is where the Champion excels. It is obvious that it can.
But a higher number of hp restored could do the same.
But while one is a flat stuff, the other is rng based.
One is simply better, even though the other can happen sometimes to save your friend.
Using Lay on hand on themselves to waste the ac bonus would be gold.
For god sake.
You should have definitely ate your apples and Orange.
The other thing is that lay on hands is meant to be in combat emergency healing. It's not intended to keep the whole party topped off between combats. That's what the medicine skill is for.
The fact that 10 minutes of rest can let the champion regain 1 focus, which is one use of Lay on Hands means that can do it basically every combat.
Given the fact that it heals for 1/5 or 1/4, depends the class, hp at max lvl, I'd say that it is obvious that it is not meant to Fill every single membri full life, like medicine.
My point was to understand its Role when we are talking about big numbers.
Out of combat i can help medicine users with it, ( or eventually use medicine myself ) to speed up,right,but ooc have never been an issue to begin with.
I feel like that's been covered.
Its role is a supplimentary in combat heal and or heal+buff for a bad moment. its basically similar to Battle Medicine+godless healing. Just with the AC and set amount. and potentially faster cooldown (1hr vs 10min in ideal conditions). Though I believe you can lower battle medicine to 10min with 2 or 3 more feats.
Its quite useful in that regard, for a 1 feat option. Its fairly similar to takng an Elixir (though that requires 2 actions, draw and drink) and other in battle healing options.
Its a supplimentary method, not a instant full heal (the concept not the spell). Reusable and costs no resources. Compared to other in combat methods.
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