Transmuters


Rules Discussion


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Note1: This will be a long post. TLDR; is Wizard Transmuters don't have anything unique or interesting, and a lot of their spells are extremely situational, while the better spells are shared with other classes.

Note2: To people who will pop up and say "Just go play PF1 / houserule it", please go away. Your comment is not useful in the least.

Note3: To people who'll be like "why you complaining, no one forcing you to play this game", I like this game. I love what it did for martials, and for most classes except Wizards. It just nerfed Wizards, kept nerfing, and then it additionally nerfed Transmuters just that bit extra.

I am watching Arcane Mark episodes, and I generally am enjoying them very much. I reached episode 37, All About Magic ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mei5RccfACY ), where they briefly discuss some changes to the schools of magic.

In general, I support their rebalancing of magic in general and schools in particular, for example making sure Abjuration has defensive stuff. Conjuration in particular was overburdened and filled with some of the strongest spells.
On the other hand, Transmutation. Now, in PF1, there were some good stuff, and it had A LOT OF SPELLS - but huge majority of those spells were situational silliness. Stuff like "Crafter's Curse" and then a separate "Crafter's Fortune". Get rid of it, sure.

Except... They just plain out made the school uninteresting and underpowered, and then they went further for Wizard Transmuters and made sure they are useless.

First, Physical Boost Focus spell : Not the worst Wizard Focus spell, sure - Divination is just sad - but definitively boring. Not to mention quite situational. This is not a spell I use "every encounter", more like, I'm searching for reasons to use it once a level.

Then, actual spells. First of all, no Transmutation cantrips (and no, Sigil is not worth a cantrip slot. I spent 2 sessions trying to desperately find a way to use it and failed. Why not at least Prestidigitation?!
(Evocation meanwhile has 9!!! Cantrips; literally half the available list).

Then, 1st level - we got a whooping 7 spells! YEAH! What do we have?
Ant Haul : weaker, less versatile version of Floating Disk. Sure, there is gonna be that point where having a character carry a bit more is more useful than a Floating Disk, but that's gonna happen 3 times in next 10 years for all people playing Pathfinder. Floating Disk carries 5 Bulk on the side; Ant Haul gives you carrying 3 more bulk (6 if you accept penalties, including to your speed).
Fleet Step and Longstrider : useful, sure, but why are there 2 spells that do almost the same thing?! Why couldn't it have been one spell and you choose lots of speed for short time or little speed for long time?
Jump : errrr... Kinda? If it's really critical? I mean, sure... Eh? Maybe. On third level it's kinda okayish... Maybe.
Magic Weapon : yaaaay, useful spell! I gonna be a buff bot! Also, becomes useless very quickly.
Mending : wheee, we gonna repair ALL the shields... Max bulk L? Ah, damn. Nope. SUPER SITUATIONAL. Former cantrip. Maybe it's like instaheal... Nope, 10 minutes casting time. It's literally like doing a Crafting check, except you can't use it on non-Buckler Shields unless you heighten it to level 2. Just, no.
Pest Form : 1st LEVEL POLYMORPH, WOHOOOOO! Okay, not combat. Slow. Can't climb. Kinda hide... But also super risky. What can I do? Die faster. Yeah, so cool and good.

Okay, lets move to level 2. 7 spells again, cool.
Water Walk and Water Breathing. Sigh. Super situational again, although I guess Water Breathing targets useful number of creatures and kinda lasts okay.
Knock : open the doors. Okay spell, I think a decent approach. But not really something useful all the time, that characters can specialise in.
Enlarge : this is 2nd level now, okay. Gives Reach and +2 damage for -1 AC, Reflex, Ranged to hit... Seriously? Reach and +2 damage to take AC penalty? For a 2nd level spell? Hell no. I know bonuses are more controlled this game, but this is *not* useful enough for a 2nd level spell. Going Huge is kinda okayish since the penalty does not increase, but a 4th level slot... Sorry, no.
Shrink : kinda okayish? I don't know, I have a hard time finding a use for it. No penalties or bonuses, being smaller can be situationally cool to pass somewhere but... eh?
Spider Climb : okay, this is actually useful.
Humanoid Form : seems okay until you realise it gives you same bonus as 1st level Illusionary Disguise except it lasts 1/6th the time. That's right, same bonus, almost the same effect, lasts less, for a level higher slot. Why? Because. And yeah, sure, the fact transformation is physical and not just illusionary may come in handy... Once every 50 sessions (being generous).

Sigh. And it goes like that. I also checked: all Transmutation spells available in Arcane spell list are also available in at least Primal, and occassionaly Occult too (there is only a few not available to Primal, but those are available to Occult). Let me repeat it: there is no Transmutation spells unique to Wizards. None. Not even later level polymorph battle forms - all are shared with Primal. Yet Primal has actually more polymorphs, starting at lower levels.

Speaking of that, at Transmutation has the least number of spells on levels 5+, sharing this number with Necromancy, except its (only) 9th level spell is actually just a "choose lower leveled polymorph spell". It also doesn't give you better bonuses, meaning it is actually useless because of the tightness of the math in this edition. Although at least Monstrosity form heightens to 9th level so I guess that's what you'll be filing that slot.

I mean, seriously, if I want to specialise in Transmutation, I should play a Druid and not a Wizard, because Wizards are just plain BAD at it. Hell, even the advanced Focus Power ends up inferior to the Druids 1st level Focus Wild Morph.

And as for Mark Seifters' comment how "Transmutation will get more spells eventually"... That doesn't help now. If you're not willing to provide spells, why even bother putting it in the Core Rulebook then? Just skip it and add more blasting spells to Evocation, that really seems to be lacking.

Also, Mark Seifter had another comment that really caught me offguard, about Arcane versus other spelllists, how it has more spells... Sure, but every other casting class has something besides their spells. They have better weapon and armour proficiencies, plenty of non-spell list abilities and bonuses. Wizards literally only have their spells. That is their whole class. Everything they get revolves around spells. They are literally locked out of benefiting from a Unconventional Weaponry because they don't have full Simple weapon proficiencies. Not to mention they don't even get a reaction from their class. Not to mention that their advantage over the Arcane Sorcerer is supposedly their flexibility in terms of different spells.

Paizo overnerfed casters in general I would say, but they made Wizards completely without life. Even their Thesis have no connection or impact on their later character development; no feats or abilities that interact with the Thesis choice.

Anyway, there it is. I'm off to play my poor Transmuter and dream of better days.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I also love Transmuters and am also disappointed with their current options. I’m looking forward to them getting better options over the coming year.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

The only thing I gather from this is that you want more Transmutation spells, not that there’s anything wrong with Wizards or Transmuters.


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As much as his posts are often off-putting, Nemo isn't entirely wrong here. Transmutation may have been over-nerfed.

Mending is functionally worthless. It's a spell slot so you can repair a bit faster. Even worse it's 5HP per spell level or 50 Hp if you burn a 10th level slot! To add insult to injury, it gets restrictive when you try to repair magic stuff. 5HP won't even get you back to usable in many cases. The pendulum swung the other way and crashed through the wall.

Transmutation does have some up-sides, however. It is generally a buff focused rather than debuff focused discipline. That means fewer pesky saving throws or rolls to hit. Trying to land a decent effect on some foes can be real challenge. When you're turning into a dragon that's less of an issue. You can just try again with your breath weapon.

True sight might reveal your true form, but it doesn't deny you flight, dragon fire, or darkvision.

So the picture isn't as grim as painted, but I think Transmuters could use a little love.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

A lot of Transmutation is party dependent. Have crafters? No need for Mending. Have lockpickers? No need for Knock. Have Barbarian? Don't really need Ant Haul.


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Rysky wrote:
Have Barbarian? Don't really need Ant Haul.

Depends how much stuff you plan to drag back from an adventure and/or how strong the rest of the party is. If everyone else is low str, the barbarian might not have a lot of bulk left carrying the extra's for the party and having the spell could mean bringing home a magical full plate or not.

Rysky wrote:
The only thing I gather from this is that you want more Transmutation spells, not that there’s anything wrong with Wizards or Transmuters.

To some extent I think this could be said of anything right now: we're only in core. That said, some of the traditional spells HAVE been heavily beaten and left for dead in an alley. Mending is the poster child for this: cast time 10 min, base spell can't even mend a shield [the only item (with buckler) likely to take damage] and mending magic takes a 3rd level spell... With the likelihood of someone having craft for repair, Mending's only use seems to fix items with DC's significantly higher than craft modifiers to make sure crit fails don't destroy it.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

The Barbarian one was mostly being silly, but the point stands with the likes of Mending, if you have Crafters don't take it until later, if you don't have any crafters do.


Rysky wrote:
The only thing I gather from this is that you want more Transmutation spells, not that there’s anything wrong with Wizards or Transmuters.

I focused here on Transmuters within the Wizard vehicle as exist right now.

I do want more Transmutation spells, specifically for Arcane spellcasters (NOT shared to Primal), and specifically for lower levels. I would also like more interesting Focus spells, or at least more relevant.

Rysky wrote:
A lot of Transmutation is party dependent. Have crafters? No need for Mending. Have lockpickers? No need for Knock. Have Barbarian? Don't really need Ant Haul.

Mending is never useful as a 1st level slot. Higher level slots are far too expensive for the few HP they fix.

Have Floating Disk? No need for Ant Haul.

I'm actually really happy with Knock. It's a well designed spell. However, it's not really a spell you can build a character concept around (or at least, not what I would consider building around).
I'm also super surprised it's not Evocation. But whatever.


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NemoNoName wrote:
Floating Disk

Floating disc has a LOT of issues: A normal bird, fly, spider, ect lands on it and the spell goes away. Climb/fly/swim and it goes away. Items on it aren't in your possession, meaning it's Palm an Object instead of Steal to take items from it [meaning items are automatically taken]. SO there are a LOT of reasons to take ant haul over floating disc.


I'm not so sure Transmuters were even on Paizo's radar so much as buffs were defanged so Transmutation was stripped, i.e. stat boosting spells.
Or heck, any spells that gave raw numbers...many of which were in Transmutation.

I still think they have worthwhile buffs, even game-changing, plus some of the best save-or-suck spells too. Plus Transmutation's up there with Illusion for espionage & infiltration and gives a lot of variety & utility w/ polymorph spells (though I wouldn't base a melee build on those).

So I don't see the issue. Transmuters transmute well. Transmutation has good spells at most levels, or spells worth heightening to those levels.

And Physical Boost, because it's a one-action spell that's free after every 10-minute lull, works fine. +2 is a generous bonus in PF2 (akin to +4 in PF1), and you can use it against an upcoming AoE or that ongoing poison roll as well as on that ally trying a hard maneuver. All while still getting off a normal 2-action spell.

I'm not a fan of Wizards yet now I can see myself playing a Transmuter because it has so many facets. Forms? :)


Castilliano wrote:
And Physical Boost, because it's a one-action spell that's free after every 10-minute lull, works fine. +2 is a generous bonus in PF2 (akin to +4 in PF1), and you can use it against an upcoming AoE or that ongoing poison roll as well as on that ally trying a hard maneuver. All while still getting off a normal 2-action spell.

It boosts Athletics check so it can be used to Force Open , Grapple, Shove, Trip and Disarm. So it helps those grabbed AND it can set up the melee guy for some crits with maneuvers. So if you go before the melee guy, you can cast you normal spell and Physical Boost and everyone is happy.


Castilliano wrote:

I'm not so sure Transmuters were even on Paizo's radar so much as buffs were defanged so Transmutation was stripped, i.e. stat boosting spells.

Or heck, any spells that gave raw numbers...many of which were in Transmutation.

I'm actually glad those are gone. Pure stat boosting spells are boring if they don't come with cool effect.

I'm actually estatic when I realised polymorph spells are now actually good.

Castilliano wrote:
I still think they have worthwhile buffs, even game-changing, plus some of the best save-or-suck spells too.

I generally try to avoid pure save-or-suck spells in any school of magic.

Castilliano wrote:
Plus Transmutation's up there with Illusion for espionage & infiltration and gives a lot of variety & utility w/ polymorph spells (though I wouldn't base a melee build on those).

There is one spell that helps Transmutation with infiltration, and it lasts far too short for espionage (Humanoid Form at 10min). Infiltration maybe, but again, short duration. Not even close to Illusion in this sense. Pest Form is ridiculously situational.

Castilliano wrote:
So I don't see the issue. Transmuters transmute well. Transmutation has good spells at most levels, or spells worth heightening to those levels.

Transmutation starts having some interesting spells at higher levels. At lower levels, just boring stat boosts.

Also, a lot of spells have heightening, but they are either not worth the bother to heighten (ex. Humanoid Form), or that means lower level versions become unusable (ex. battle form polymorphs).
Castilliano wrote:
And Physical Boost, because it's a one-action spell that's free after every 10-minute lull, works fine. +2 is a generous bonus in PF2 (akin to +4 in PF1), and you can use it against an upcoming AoE or that ongoing poison roll as well as on that ally trying a hard maneuver. All while still getting off a normal 2-action spell.

I've used it in action. It's... Exceedingly situational. It's also boring as hell to use. "I give you +2, everyone rejoice". I also figured out casting shield is always more worthwhile.

Castilliano wrote:
I'm not a fan of Wizards yet now I can see myself playing a Transmuter because it has so many facets. Forms? :)

And then you are better off playing a Druid. It has everything Transmuter Wizard has, and then it has even more powers.

I mean, speaking power-wise, they could've given Transmuter Wizards morph powers and kept polymorphs for Druids. But instead they gave both to Druids and gave Transmuters... A flavourless stat boost and a weak morph much later.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Bringing this over here to stop derailing the Rules Stream Thread,

NemoNoName wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Because Transmutation is a school of magic.
So what? They should've not presented any specialised Wizards, or maybe only a few. In fact, in one of my previous posts I referenced a video where Jason Buhlman, the person in charge of Pathfinder, acknowledges the fact Necromancers are flavourless in this edition and promises goodies for them in future. Hence my questions.

Did he say that, not having seen the stream I can’t confirm or deny, but that doesn't sound right. In addition to the neat spells in Necromancy we still have Create Undead.

Not having specialized wizards or having only some would have been a horrible idea.

Quote:
A bad option now is worse than no option until later.
Lack of spells because the edition is brand new is not a bad option.
Quote:


Rysky wrote:
Wizard's thing isn't being the best at magic, it's that they're learned Arcane casters.
1) not sure when I asked that they be best at magic, I just asked they don't be worse than another class when they specialise in something.

How are they worse? Druids have Wild Shape, they’ve always had Wild Shape, that’s their thing. That doesn’t make Wizards be worse at anything.

Quote:
2) What are actually Wizards supposed to be good at? Being learned Arcane caster is not a niche. Druid is a learned Primal caster, yet they also get actual extra powers, and additional proficiencies, all which create flavour and give it power. They even get a bonus skill over the Wizard! Wizards are tied with Sorcerers for worst proficiency progressions, except Sorcerers at least get full Simple Weapon proficiency.
Their feats.
Quote:
Have you noticed there's feats that interact with any of the thesis past the basic interactions?
Not yet, but then we do only have 1 book and we can have only so many feats in it.
Quote:
Another fun fact: Did you know that Wizards can't even properly utilise the feat Unconventional Weaponry without multiclassing into Fighter?

What does that have to do with anything? Wizards have to invest in weapon related things to be good with weapons since they’re a caster? Okay?


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graystone wrote:
NemoNoName wrote:
Floating Disk
Floating disc has a LOT of issues: A normal bird, fly, spider, ect lands on it and the spell goes away. Climb/fly/swim and it goes away. Items on it aren't in your possession, meaning it's Palm an Object instead of Steal to take items from it [meaning items are automatically taken]. SO there are a LOT of reasons to take ant haul over floating disc.

Don't forget that Ant Haul on a pack horse can add up to six times as much loot hauling capacity as floating disc.


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Rysky wrote:
Bringing this over here to stop derailing the Rules Stream Thread,

Sure. I think I'll hit the bed soon anyway.

Rysky wrote:
Did he say that, not having seen the stream I can’t confirm or deny, but that doesn't sound right. In addition to the neat spells in Necromancy we still have Create Undead.

Necromancer question starts here.

The most relevant quote:
Interviewer: And I was going through the rules, and I can't make a necromancer.
Buhlman: There's not quite enough there yet. There are some things that we're coming out soon that should alleviate the problem to some extent, and over time we'll fix it.
Rysky wrote:
Not having specialized wizards or having only some would have been a horrible idea.
Rysky wrote:
Lack of spells because the edition is brand new is not a bad option.

It's almost as if you argue my point for me. Why not give few specialists, and enough spells to them to do what they need to?

Not to mention the repetitive spells issue. They could've easily added Ant Haul and Humanoid Form and Longstrider in a later book, while giving us actual interesting spells now.

Rysky wrote:
How are they worse? Druids have Wild Shape, they’ve always had Wild Shape, that’s their thing. That doesn’t make Wizards be worse at anything.

Let me break it down for you:

1. Primal spell list has essentially all Transmutation spells Arcane spell list has.
2. Druids use Primal spell list.
=>
3. Druids can cast almost any Transmutation spell a Transmuter Wizard can.
4. Primal spell list has additional Transmutation spells that Arcane spell list does not.
=> Druids have wider portfolio of Transmutation effects to choose from.
=> Druids are better transmuters than Wizards specialising in Transmutation.

Bonus:
5. Wizards may only gain 2 Transmutation-related powers:
5.1 Mildly useful stat boost that has exactly 0 flavour.
5.2 Flexible but midling-power morph that gives some flavour, but comes after 1/3rd of character development, is mechanically midling, and never improves (either automatically by heightening or by combining abilities).
6. Druids may start the game with 2 Transmutation-related powers: Wild Morph and Wild Shape
6.1 Wild Morph starts as mechanically midling, but flavourful Transmutation Power
6.2 Wild Shape starts as mechanically midling, and very situational but flavourful Transmutation Power that at higher level becomes significantly better.
6.3 Wild Shape becomes truly interesting at character level 3 and upgrades by itself all the way up to level 9
6.4 Druids can acquire additional feats that improve both of these powers significantly.
=> Druids are better transmuters than Transmutation-specialised Wizards are.

Rysky wrote:
Not yet, but then we do only have 1 book and we can have only so many feats in it.

So they could've left out most specialist Wizards and gave us those feats instead. Then add the rest of specialist Wizards in future.

Rysky wrote:
What does that have to do with anything? Wizards have to invest in weapon related things to be good with weapons since they’re a caster? Okay?

[sarcasm]Ah, I see, after all, they made all the casters limited in the same way. No? Well, good thing they gave all the other powers to Wizards.[/sarcasm]


NemoNoName wrote:
Castilliano wrote:

I'm not so sure Transmuters were even on Paizo's radar so much as buffs were defanged so Transmutation was stripped, i.e. stat boosting spells.

Or heck, any spells that gave raw numbers...many of which were in Transmutation.

I'm actually glad those are gone. Pure stat boosting spells are boring if they don't come with cool effect.

I'm actually estatic when I realised polymorph spells are now actually good.

Castilliano wrote:
I still think they have worthwhile buffs, even game-changing, plus some of the best save-or-suck spells too.

I generally try to avoid pure save-or-suck spells in any school of magic.

Castilliano wrote:
Plus Transmutation's up there with Illusion for espionage & infiltration and gives a lot of variety & utility w/ polymorph spells (though I wouldn't base a melee build on those).

There is one spell that helps Transmutation with infiltration, and it lasts far too short for espionage (Humanoid Form at 10min). Infiltration maybe, but again, short duration. Not even close to Illusion in this sense. Pest Form is ridiculously situational.

Castilliano wrote:
So I don't see the issue. Transmuters transmute well. Transmutation has good spells at most levels, or spells worth heightening to those levels.

Transmutation starts having some interesting spells at higher levels. At lower levels, just boring stat boosts.

Also, a lot of spells have heightening, but they are either not worth the bother to heighten (ex. Humanoid Form), or that means lower level versions become unusable (ex. battle form polymorphs).
Castilliano wrote:
And Physical Boost, because it's a one-action spell that's free after every 10-minute lull, works fine. +2 is a generous bonus in PF2 (akin to +4 in PF1), and you can use it against an upcoming AoE or that ongoing poison roll as well as on that ally trying a hard maneuver. All while still getting off a normal 2-action spell.
I've used it in action. It's... Exceedingly situational. It's also...

I disagree with your counterpoints except for Druids being better at Transmutation. Except Transmuters aren't limited to Transmutations, and I wasn't emphasizing polymorph/morph spells (where one really should be a Druid). As Arcane casters go, Transmuters work fine. If your beef is with the Arcane list < Primal list, I may agree with you, most especially because of Heal though, yet Magic Missile is pretty awesome when you have a low casting stat & a boss target (who would likely maul your battle forms.)

With that attitude & methodology, which you've displayed on numerous other posts as well, one could dismantle most any build.
Does the Transmutation list have useful spells, even for non-Transmuters? Yes. So that extra slot will be useful.
Are the focus spells useful too? Yes. So much so I've heard of builds wanting to MCD just to pick up Physical Boost, since those types of bonuses are so rare. You may not like the spell, but that's on you as I've also heard it called one of the better Wizard focus spells.
(And I like the utility of their higher focus spell too.)

Advice: Give up on being a Transmuter if it's causing you so much grief you can't help but inundate the boards with complaints about Transmuters and their spells. It sounds like you'd get much more enjoyment playing a Druid, maybe one who acts like a Transmuter Wizard, but god forbid isn't.
Cheers, and thanks for reading my semi-rant.


Castilliano wrote:
Except Transmuters aren't limited to Transmutations, and I wasn't emphasizing polymorph/morph spells (where one really should be a Druid).

Why should one be a Druid? Druids were about taking ANIMAL(INSECT, DINOSAUR) form. Not Dragons and Phoenixes and other weird stuff, nor about partial transforms unless you started to go into some weird archetypes, all of which were related to animals.

Castilliano wrote:
Are the focus spells useful too? Yes. So much so I've heard of builds wanting to MCD just to pick up Physical Boost, since those types of bonuses are so rare. You may not like the spell, but that's on you as I've also heard it called one of the better Wizard focus spells.

I don't like playing buffbots. The fact that Barbarians and Fighters like it actually downgrades it in my opinion.

Castilliano wrote:
Advice: Give up on being a Transmuter if it's causing you so much grief you can't help but inundate the boards with complaints about Transmuters and their spells. It sounds like you'd get much more enjoyment playing a Druid, maybe one who acts like a Transmuter Wizard, but god forbid isn't.

This is exactly a build I'm going for. I'm actually going to rebuild my PFS characters as a high Intelligence, low Wisdom Druid. Luckily polymorphs don't care about my primary stat.

It still feels bad, because I am not an Arcane caster (it's a roleplay thing, and yes, I have Arcana trained. Still not the same) and have a bunch of other problematic side-effects, but eh, whatever.

Castilliano wrote:
Cheers, and thanks for reading my semi-rant.

Sure, you read mine after all.


Castilliano wrote:
Are the focus spells useful too? Yes.

*nods* yes, they aren't bad at all. +2 to your melee guys maneuvers is quite good and your pick of more Speed, climb or swim Speed, darkvision, claws or scent is a pretty nice set of options too: any one might be situational but the whole package means there is always something you can use.

+20 speed allows alone allows the wizard to avoid danger
1/2 speed climb/swim avoids athletics checks the wizard is likely bad at
Darkvision/scent can be useful for finding hidden/invisible creatures, not a bad thing for knowing where to send your spell.

Castilliano wrote:
flavor

Flavor is in the eye of the beholder: if you think the abilities lack it, then add some so it feels better for you. If Physical Boost doesn't excite you, then describe it as making the targets muscles bulge and the target moving quicker when they use the spell. The spell 'just' giving a numerical bonus in no wan makes it flavorless unless you don't try.

Castilliano wrote:
I don't like playing buffbots

Well, that's an issue brought over from PF1: a lot of their spells WERE buffs. If you are seeing too many buffs, the person that LIKES buffs might think there are too little of them. This is an issue with the total number of spells and not IMO of it favoring one type of play.

And the focus spells for the transmuter has one buff and one polymorph type whuch seems as balance as possible for a spell list that is heavily both types of spells.

Silver Crusade

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NemoNoName wrote:

Necromancer question starts here.

The most relevant quote:
Interviewer: And I was going through the rules, and I can't make a necromancer.
Buhlman: There's not quite enough there yet. There are some things that we're coming out soon that should alleviate the problem to some extent, and over time we'll fix it.

Which is a lot different than saying they're flavourless, also I'm definitely side-eyeing that interviewer saying they can't make a Necromancer.

Quote:

Let me break it down for you:

1. Primal spell list has essentially all Transmutation spells Arcane spell list has.
2. Druids use Primal spell list.
=>
3. Druids can cast almost any Transmutation spell a Transmuter Wizard can.
4. Primal spell list has additional Transmutation spells that Arcane spell list does not.
=> Druids have wider portfolio of Transmutation effects to choose from.
=> Druids are better transmuters than Wizards specialising in Transmutation.

Primal has 6 more Transmutation spells than Arcane in the Core book. Which is immediately rectified as more spells are introduced.

Quote:

Bonus:

5. Wizards may only gain 2 Transmutation-related powers:
5.1 Mildly useful stat boost that has exactly 0 flavour.
5.2 Flexible but midling-power morph that gives some flavour, but comes after 1/3rd of character development, is mechanically midling, and never improves (either automatically by heightening or by combining abilities).
6. Druids may start the game with 2 Transmutation-related powers: Wild Morph and Wild Shape
6.1 Wild Morph starts as mechanically midling, but flavourful Transmutation Power
6.2 Wild Shape starts as mechanically midling, and very situational but flavourful Transmutation Power that at higher level becomes significantly better.
6.3 Wild Shape becomes truly interesting at character level 3 and upgrades by itself all the way up to level 9
6.4 Druids can acquire additional feats that improve both of these powers significantly.
=> Druids are miles better transmuters than Transmutation-specialised Wizards are.

You don't like the options Wizards have, options they can use on others, not just themselves. Druids are only self-buffs.

Quote:
So they could've left out most specialist Wizards and gave us those feats instead. Then add the rest of specialist Wizards in future.

Spell schools are a big part of Wizards flavor, so again, no they could not, only having some wouldn't make any sense, and not allowing specialization at all would have made no sense.

And I don't know the breakdown between classes but giving Wizards possibly way more class feats than the other classes, while leaving out a class specific "path" for them would not have been received well.

Quote:
[sarcasm]Ah, I see, after all, they made all the casters limited in the same way. No? Well, good thing they gave all the other powers to Wizards.[/sarcasm]

I still don't see what you're going on about, Wizards aren't good at weapons. You have to invest if you want a weapon wizard.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
NemoNoName wrote:
Castilliano wrote:
Except Transmuters aren't limited to Transmutations, and I wasn't emphasizing polymorph/morph spells (where one really should be a Druid).
Why should one be a Druid? Druids were about taking ANIMAL(INSECT, DINOSAUR) form. Not Dragons and Phoenixes and other weird stuff, nor about partial transforms unless you started to go into some weird archetypes, all of which were related to animals.

Phoenixes and Dragons (from a setting viewpoint) are animals so it's not farfetched they can transform into them when they're powerful enough.

"Nor about partial transformations" that argument is a non-start.


graystone wrote:
Flavor is in the eye of the beholder: if you think the abilities lack it, then add some so it feels better for you. If Physical Boost doesn't excite you, then describe it as making the targets muscles bulge and the target moving quicker when they use the spell. The spell 'just' giving a numerical bonus in no wan makes it flavorless unless you don't try.

I TRIED. I EVEN MADE A HIGH STR WIZARD WITH ATHLETICS FOR PFS. It's boring.

graystone wrote:
Well, that's an issue brought over from PF1: a lot of their spells WERE buffs. If you are seeing too many buffs, the person that LIKES buffs might think there are too little of them. This is an issue with the total number of spells and not IMO of it favoring one type of play.

Except that's not true. It clearly favours one style of play until level 7. Which means I need to spend (for PFS under ideal conditions) 6x3x5 = 90 hours of my life playing a boring non-Transmuter just to get to some interesting spells.

graystone wrote:
And the focus spells for the transmuter has one buff and one polymorph type whuch seems as balance as possible for a spell list that is heavily both types of spells.

Except it's imbalanced in all the wrong ways. Access is not at the same time. And I can make the best Transmuter I can with a Wizard and a regular old Wild Druid comes in and is clearly mechanically better at doing that same thing.

Rysky wrote:
Which is a lot different than saying they're flavourless, also I'm definitely side-eyeing that interviewer saying they can't make a Necromancer.

From all your posts, I can tell you aren't really interested in making builds that mechanically reflect the roleplaying aspect, just trying to convince everyone Pathfinder 2 is the one perfect game.

Rysky wrote:
Primal has 6 more Transmutation spells than Arcane in the Core book. Which is immediately rectified as more spells are introduced.

First of all, it's not all pure counts. Levels of those spells and what those spells do is really important. For example, if they gave Longstrider and Ant Haul to Druids but not Wizards I wouldn't care in the least.

Druid has good Transmutation spells Wizard has no equivalence. This includes both buffs (Moon Frenzy) and polymorphs.

Rysky wrote:
You don't like the options Wizards have, options they can use on others, not just themselves. Druids are only self-buffs.

Do you even know what you're talking about? Druids have access to all the buffs (Haste or Water Breathing for example), while actually also having access to an excellent mass buff in form of Moon Frenzy that Wizards do not get.

About the only buff Druids don't get is Magic Weapon, which is a good spell early and rapidly becomes useless.
Rysky wrote:
Spell schools are a big part of Wizards flavor, so again, no they could not, only having some wouldn't make any sense, and not allowing specialization at all would have made no sense.

You keep repeating this like it's an argument, but it's not. They removed some Barbarian instincts and left them for later.

Rysky wrote:
And I don't know the breakdown between classes but giving Wizards possibly way more class feats than the other classes, while leaving out a class specific "path" for them would not have been received well.

I have no idea what you're trying to say with the second part of this, while first part is easily balanced out by giving them less powers.

Rysky wrote:
Phoenixes and Dragons (from a setting viewpoint) are animals so it's not farfetched they can transform into them when they're powerful enough.

Phoenixes you could argue for, but dragons not at all. In any case, I'm not opposed to giving these things to Druids; I just ask Wizards don't get shafted meanwhile.

Rysky wrote:
"Nor about partial transformations" that argument is a non-start.

... Sure, whatever. Bye.

Rysky wrote:
I still don't see what you're going on about, Wizards aren't good at weapons. You have to invest if you want a weapon wizard.

You have to invest EXTRA when you are a Wizard, compared to other caster classes. Despite having the same limited spell list, and no notable additional powers or proficiencies.

Also, you seem to have a real problem understanding the difference between a weapon wizard, and a wizard who can use a weapon as competently as some default weapons.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
NemoNoName wrote:
I TRIED. I EVEN MADE A HIGH STR WIZARD WITH ATHLETICS FOR PFS. It's boring.
Basic body alteration is a cornerstone of Transmutation though.
Quote:
Except that's not true. It clearly favours one style of play until level 7. Which means I need to spend (for PFS under ideal conditions) 6x3x5 = 90 hours of my life playing a boring non-Transmuter just to get to some interesting spells.

No it is, Transmutation is the buff school.

Or you can wait as they add more spells, which they will.

Quote:
Except it's imbalanced in all the wrong ways. Access is not at the same time. And I can make the best Transmuter I can with a Wizard and a regular old Wild Druid comes in and is clearly mechanically better at doing that same thing.
What "same thing"?
Quote:
From all your posts, I can tell you aren't really interested in making builds that mechanically reflect the roleplaying aspect, just trying to convince everyone Pathfinder 2 is the one perfect game.
lol what?
Quote:

First of all, it's not all pure counts. Levels of those spells and what those spells do is really important. For example, if they gave Longstrider and Ant Haul to Druids but not Wizards I wouldn't care in the least.

Druid has good Transmutation spells Wizard has no equivalence. This includes both buffs (Moon Frenzy) and polymorphs.

Which again, is immediately invalidated as they add more spells. That's one of the Wizard's strength, they get stronger and more versatile with every product that comes out.
Quote:

Do you even know what you're talking about? Druids have access to all the buffs (Haste or Water Breathing for example), while actually also having access to an excellent mass buff in form of Moon Frenzy that Wizards do not get.

About the only buff Druids don't get is Magic Weapon, which is a good spell early and rapidly becomes useless.

I was specifically referring to the Focus Spells you were talking about.

And Magic Weapon becomes less useful later. Later. Druids don't get it at all.

Quote:
You keep repeating this like it's an argument, but it's not. They removed some Barbarian instincts and left them for later.
It is because no spell schools were removed, and to my knowledge the only Instinct they removed was Superstition. Hardly the cornerstone the way schools of magic are. Schools are integral to magic. Letting the Wizard pick only some but not all wouldn't have made much sense, short of not having that school of spells in the book, which makes even less sense.
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I have no idea what you're trying to say with the second part of this, while first part is easily balanced out by giving them less powers.
Again, giving them possibly way more class feats than other classes, no matter what they removed, would not have been a well liked move. And not letting them be specialists, which is what Wizards are kinda known for, would not have been well received by the community.
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Phoenixes you could argue for, but dragons not at all.
We gonna disagree on that.
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In any case, I'm not opposed to giving these things to Druids; I just ask Wizards don't get shafted meanwhile.
The only "issue" is lack of spells right now, ask for more spells. We're getting more spells, we will soon have plenty of spells.
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... Sure, whatever. Bye.
*shrugs* Druids are about Wild Shape and otherwise transforming, they don't deal in percentages of (oh I'm a 68 proof Druid but that Transmuter is distilled 75 proof).
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You have to invest EXTRA when you are a Wizard, compared to other caster classes. Despite having the same limited spell list, and no notable additional powers or proficiencies.
You keep acting like that spell list is going to stay the same forever.
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Also, you seem to have a real problem understanding the difference between a weapon wizard, and a wizard who can use a weapon as competently as some default weapons.

Oh it's not a problem of understanding, I just don't view it as odd that if you want to be a Wizard that is also competent with weapons you have to invest in it.


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I get that this isn't what you are looking for, but a wizard can pick up combat-applicable shapeshifting at level 4 if they go for the Magic Warrior archetype. You want to retrain it after level 9 when the scaling stops mattering, but by then you have other combat form options.

Also, maybe transmuter wizards aren't going to fit your preferred playstyle until more transmutation spells are published, and maybe they aren't ever going to match it either. The current role of transmutation seems to be roles you do not value (buffing and utility), so perhaps you should instead look for character options that let you fill roles you do value.


Rysky wrote:
No it is, Transmutation is the buff school.

Transmutation can be both, you know. Plus, Druid is still better at buffing than a Wizard is.

Not to mention that buffing didn't really used to be *the* Wizard thing.
Rysky wrote:
Or you can wait as they add more spells, which they will.

Sure, but there's no guarantee that purely adding more spells will actually improve things unless they take care. They could easily add all these spells to Druids, which would maintain imbalance, and frankly, given history of spells in PF1, I don't want Transmutation to become again the school of uber-situational spells.

Rysky wrote:
What "same thing"?

Transmuting things, both the character itself or the world around the character.

Rysky wrote:
lol what?

Yeah, exactly.

See, if I wanted a Magic Missile-based Wizard but Magic Missiles were bad, I could build a Monk, go around saying they're a Wizard and casting "Magic Missile" every time they hit someone. But that's entirely unsatisfying. So I'd prefer they fix Magic Missile.

Rysky wrote:
Which again, is immediately invalidated as they add more spells.

Hardly, if they add the same spell to Druids.

Rysky wrote:
That's one of the Wizard's strength, they get stronger and more versatile with every product that comes out.

This is actually quite untrue, since Druids and Clerics gain access to their whole spell lists without needing to scribe them in spellbook, and are thus immediately more flexible than Wizards.

Rysky wrote:
I was specifically referring to the Focus Spells you were talking about.

The buff you're talking about is extremely situational and potentially useless if your party doesn't have anyone that wants to use combat maneuvers. Much like the 3 PFS sessions I just played. No-one had a character built for doing Athletics maneuvers except my Wizard.

Rysky wrote:
And Magic Weapon becomes less useful later. Later. Druids don't get it at...

Oooh, poor Druids. The buff drops in useability almost immediately as you will be finding +1 weapons quickly (you can still add damage), and it's basically useless around level 3-4 already.

Rysky wrote:
Letting the Wizard pick only some but not all wouldn't have made much sense, short of not having that school of spells in the book, which makes even less sense.
Rysky wrote:
And not letting them be specialists, which is what Wizards are kinda known for, would not have been well received by the community.

A bad choice is no better than no choice. Quite worse in fact, because it lessens the hope there will be better choices in future.

Rysky wrote:
*shrugs* Druids are about Wild Shape and otherwise transforming, they don't deal in percentages of (oh I'm a 68 proof Druid but that Transmuter is distilled 75 proof).

Hardly. One type of Druid is about Wild shaping, the rest are still better transmuters than Wizards for some reason. Including as buffbots.

Rysky wrote:
You keep acting like that spell list is going to stay the same forever.

And you keep talking as if spell list makes a difference if they keep adding same spells to both traditions.

Not to mention Focus spell is stupidly baked into the Specialist rules. They can override it, but again, no reason to believe they will unless people complain.
Rysky wrote:
Oh it's not a problem of understanding, I just don't view it as odd that if you want to be a Wizard that is also competent with weapons you have to invest in it.

I really like how you desperately try twist my position to look unreasonable. The Wizard does invest resources. They would just like to avoid investing a huge portion of their character lifetime of resources to be able to hit someone with a sword as competently as they are at hitting that someone with a dagger.


Paradozen wrote:
I get that this isn't what you are looking for, but a wizard can pick up combat-applicable shapeshifting at level 4 if they go for the Magic Warrior archetype. You want to retrain it after level 9 when the scaling stops mattering, but by then you have other combat form options.

Yeap, I looked into this, and was definitively going to do it for some characters, but it is also very roleplaying limiting due to Magical Warrior archetype.

Paradozen wrote:
Also, maybe transmuter wizards aren't going to fit your preferred playstyle until more transmutation spells are published, and maybe they aren't ever going to match it either.

Also yeap, this is what I did in PF1, playing Conjurers. I just got my hopes up when I realised that polymorphs are finally good, and then I realised I have to suffer through 6 levels of lackluster boredom before I get the fun stuff.

Paradozen wrote:
The current role of transmutation seems to be roles you do not value (buffing and utility), so perhaps you should instead look for character options that let you fill roles you do value.

Even buffing and utility is better accomplished by Druids. That's the core problem I'm complaining here - Transmuters are supposed to be specialised in Transmutation magic, yet they don't excel in it, and are easily outshone by Druids. Even when you consider buffing, Wizards stall out with Haste, while Druids get Moon Frenzy which is a pretty nice multibuff.


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NemoNoName wrote:
Paradozen wrote:
I get that this isn't what you are looking for, but a wizard can pick up combat-applicable shapeshifting at level 4 if they go for the Magic Warrior archetype. You want to retrain it after level 9 when the scaling stops mattering, but by then you have other combat form options.

Yeap, I looked into this, and was definitively going to do it for some characters, but it is also very roleplaying limiting due to Magical Warrior archetype.

Paradozen wrote:
Also, maybe transmuter wizards aren't going to fit your preferred playstyle until more transmutation spells are published, and maybe they aren't ever going to match it either.

Also yeap, this is what I did in PF1, playing Conjurers. I just got my hopes up when I realised that polymorphs are finally good, and then I realised I have to suffer through 6 levels of lackluster boredom before I get the fun stuff.

Paradozen wrote:
The current role of transmutation seems to be roles you do not value (buffing and utility), so perhaps you should instead look for character options that let you fill roles you do value.
Even buffing and utility is better accomplished by Druids. That's the core problem I'm complaining here - Transmuters are supposed to be specialised in Transmutation magic, yet they don't excel in it, and are easily outshone by Druids. Even when you consider buffing, Wizards stall out with Haste, while Druids get Moon Frenzy which is a pretty nice multibuff.

I rather don't agree that Moon Frenzy is pretty nice unless your main frontliner uses unarmed strikes normally. HP and speed are fine, but there are lower level spells and items to get those. natural attacks only matter if you have handwraps already, otherwise you'll use the weapon with the better item bonus. And if you already weren't using the natural attacks you don't accept the spell because losing spellcasting isn't worth 5hp. It also gives weakness, though that probably won't matter as you won't cast the spell when fighting silver armed enemies.

It isn't horrible, but you have better 5th level spells.


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Think problem is specialists in any class are lacking, transmuation wizard should be best at transmutation followed by wild druid. In fact each of schools should have spells that only their school give to make them play more unique, oh sure you have complain about choice but specialization should always get the best stuff of their specility.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Define "best" at Transmutation.

Silver Crusade

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
NemoNoName wrote:
Transmutation can be both, you know. Plus, Druid is still better at buffing than a Wizard is.
Not really, as Paradozen points out.
Quote:
Not to mention that buffing didn't really used to be *the* Wizard thing.
How long have Wizards had Haste?
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Sure, but there's no guarantee that purely adding more spells will actually improve things unless they take care. They could easily add all these spells to Druids, which would maintain imbalance, and frankly, given history of spells in PF1, I don't want Transmutation to become again the school of uber-situational spells.
So only the Core Rulebook was supposed to support the wizard the entire life of P2? That's not taking into account Feats as well. Wizards are going to get more things.
Quote:
Transmuting things, both the character itself or the world around the character.
Druid can't transmute things better than the Wizard, they have Wild Shape, that's it.
Quote:

Yeah, exactly.

See, if I wanted a Magic Missile-based Wizard but Magic Missiles were bad, I could build a Monk, go around saying they're a Wizard and casting "Magic Missile" every time they hit someone. But that's entirely unsatisfying. So I'd prefer they fix Magic Missile.

I don't understand what this had to do with the previous statement.
Quote:
Hardly, if they add the same spell to Druids.
And Class Feats as well. There's not much really else to do here if you've already decided they're never going to do anything nice for the Wizard and only give stuff to the Druid.
Quote:
This is actually quite untrue, since Druids and Clerics gain access to their whole spell lists without needing to scribe them in spellbook, and are thus immediately more flexible than Wizards.
No that is true, that is a strength of those classes. You really need to lose this mindset of "Class A can do something but Class B can do it too therefore Class A is bad at it since they're not the only one that can do it."
Quote:
The buff you're talking about is extremely situational and potentially useless if your party doesn't have anyone that wants to use combat maneuvers. Much like the 3 PFS sessions I just played. No-one had a character built for doing Athletics maneuvers except my Wizard.
Or jump. Or use Acrobatics. Or make Fortitude Saves. Or make Reflex saves. It's a Focus spell, you can spam those borderline.
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Oooh, poor Druids. The buff drops in useability almost immediately as you will be finding +1 weapons quickly (you can still add damage), and it's basically useless around level 3-4 already.
That's an assumption that you'l get one and on what timeframe you'll get one. Plenty of time to be useful in fights. And then you can swap it out when it's no longer useful.
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A bad choice is no better than no choice. Quite worse in fact, because it lessens the hope there will be better choices in future.
This is flat out false. This also doesn't take into account it's not bad choice, merely one you don't like it.
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Hardly. One type of Druid is about Wild shaping, the rest are still better transmuters than Wizards for some reason. Including as buffbots.
They're not better though, they currently have half-a-handful more spells, but that's it. And that's going to change really quick.
Quote:
And you keep talking as if spell list makes a difference if they keep adding same spells to both traditions.
This is an assumption you are having. One that I can guarantee is false, since otherwise there wouldn't be much point in having split spell lists, they put a lot of thought into this go around, especially with the Essences and the like that determines what goes where.
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Not to mention Focus spell is stupidly baked into the Specialist rules. They can override it, but again, no reason to believe they will unless people complain.
So you want specialists to get even less stuff?
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I really like how you desperately try twist my position to look unreasonable. The Wizard does invest resources. They would just like to avoid investing a huge portion of their character lifetime of resources to be able to hit someone with a sword as competently as they are at hitting that someone with a dagger.

I'm not twisting anything. The above takes one Ancestry Feat and one General Feat.


Rysky wrote:
How long have Wizards had Haste?

Sorry, let me rephrase it. Wizards didn't used to be ONLY focused on buffing others. I remember time when Haste meant casting more spells.

Rysky wrote:
So only the Core Rulebook was supposed to support the wizard the entire life of P2? That's not taking into account Feats as well. Wizards are going to get more things.

You seem very determined to misunderstand my arguments. Releasing things later is fine. BUT. We don't know what they will release. Also, no point in putting something bad with intention to fix it later. Much better to admit it's not gonna work until you release that later stuff and release something else done well.

Rysky wrote:
Druid can't transmute things better than the Wizard, they have Wild Shape, that's it.

That is quite untrue. Druids have access to additional highly useable Transmutation spells Wizards do not, especially on the critical low levels. Wizards have barely any Transmutation spells Druids do not have access. This means Druids are better transmuters than Wizards.

Rysky wrote:
I don't understand what this had to do with the previous statement.

I really don't know how to explain it anymore to you.

Rysky wrote:
And Class Feats as well. There's not much really else to do here if you've already decided they're never going to do anything nice for the Wizard and only give stuff to the Druid.

I never said that. I said we can't know, and that is why I'm making these threads, to hopefully point out the existing problems.

Rysky wrote:
No that is true, that is a strength of those classes. You really need to lose this mindset of "Class A can do something but Class B can do it too therefore Class A is bad at it since they're not the only one that can do it."

This is entirely incorrect summation of my position. First of all, I never said Wizards are bad at Transmutation. Just that they aren't as good as Druids. There is a major difference between these two claims.

I also never claimed it's about uniqueness itself.

For example, despite Druid having one more summoning spell, I consider Conjuration Specialist Wizard is quite nicely. Its Focus power is correctly supporting its core functionality.

Rysky wrote:
Or jump. Or use Acrobatics. Or make Fortitude Saves. Or make Reflex saves. It's a Focus spell, you can spam those borderline.

Hardly. Try playing, you'll notice it comes in hand rarely. It can only be used for instantaneous activities (but not as a reaction); using it for saves is sometimes possible but very rarely. Also, you use it once and then it's gone for the fight and some time after, depending on time pressure.

Rysky wrote:
That's an assumption that you'l get one and on what timeframe you'll get one. Plenty of time to be useful in fights. And then you can swap it out when it's no longer useful.

Didn't say it's not. But one spell useable for several levels cannot really carry a whole class concept.

Rysky wrote:
This is flat out false. This also doesn't take into account it's not bad choice, merely one you don't like it.

I define a bad choice in this context as a choice of class whose niche is equally or better filled with a different class, that also has additional powers.

Rysky wrote:
They're not better though, they currently have half-a-handful more spells, but that's it. And that's going to change really quick.

You can repeat they're not better as many times as you like, you won't magically make it true. Most of the additional spells Druid gets will see regular use.

Rysky wrote:
This is an assumption you are having.

All we have right now are assumptions.

Rysky wrote:
One that I can guarantee is false,

You cannot guarantee it is false, unless you are a sock puppet of one of the developers and you already have additional information.

Rysky wrote:
since otherwise there wouldn't be much point in having split spell lists,

They can still make it different in other schools, or make only less relevant spell the difference. I remember Crafters Curse and Crafters Fortune and Damp Powder. It's easy to dump useless situational spells on Arcane list and call it "different".

Rysky wrote:
they put a lot of thought into this go around, especially with the Essences and the like that determines what goes where.

Did they put a lot of thought in it? Yes. But that is no guarantee that differentiation is actually good. In fact, after listening to Mark Seifters' comments on how they worked on the lists, I'm really fearful for future.

In particular, they seemed very focused on balancing the 4 lists. But that ignores the problem that spells are all a Wizard has, while every other caster class comes with additional powers and proficiencies.

Rysky wrote:
So you want specialists to get even less stuff?

I cannot comprehend how you managed to get this from the sentences I wrote and you quote. I'll repeat the sentences here, just so it's clear:

"Not to mention Focus spell is stupidly baked into the Specialist rules. They can override it, but again, no reason to believe they will unless people complain."
Rysky wrote:
I'm not twisting anything. The above takes one Ancestry Feat and one General Feat.

That won't help because proficiency gained for the Unconventional Weapon won't scale with level. Which it would for every other class.


Paradozen wrote:
I rather don't agree that Moon Frenzy is pretty nice unless your main frontliner uses unarmed strikes normally. HP and speed are fine, but there are lower level spells and items to get those. natural attacks only matter if you have handwraps already, otherwise you'll use the weapon with the better item bonus. And if you already weren't using the natural attacks you don't accept the spell because losing spellcasting isn't worth 5hp. It also gives weakness, though that probably won't matter as you won't cast the spell when...

Well, I'm not going to claim it is a universally useable, and it will certainly depend a lot on the party composition. It has one big advantage over low level spells for speed, and that is, it affects multiple people with one casting.

Also, don't forget giving extra reach. And damage starts at 2 dice, essentially equivalent to having a striking rune (although no to-hit bonus).


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NemoNoName wrote:
Paradozen wrote:
I rather don't agree that Moon Frenzy is pretty nice unless your main frontliner uses unarmed strikes normally. HP and speed are fine, but there are lower level spells and items to get those. natural attacks only matter if you have handwraps already, otherwise you'll use the weapon with the better item bonus. And if you already weren't using the natural attacks you don't accept the spell because losing spellcasting isn't worth 5hp. It also gives weakness, though that probably won't matter as you won't cast the spell when...

Well, I'm not going to claim it is a universally useable, and it will certainly depend a lot on the party composition. It has one big advantage over low level spells for speed, and that is, it affects multiple people with one casting.

Also, don't forget giving extra reach. And damage starts at 2 dice, essentially equivalent to having a striking rune (although no to-hit bonus).

Only gives reach for 3 nights a month (roughly), and then only outside or in rooms with lots of windows or skylights. Or I suppose on the moon*. I sorta didn't think that deserved a mention. But yes, if you only adventure in the light of the full moon it gives reach. And yes, it can give everyone in the party a boost to speed if they didn't think it was worthwhile to get a status bonus to their speed elsewhere. That's a lot of why I said it wasn't horrible. Still kinda bad, though it has situational use.

Regarding the natural weapons, if your party isn't already packing handwraps of mighty strikes they aren't worth it. A -2 attack (for most of the spell's career) is pretty rough. If they are carrying the handwraps, there is a good chance those are striking and they have a better unarmed attack anyway.

*:
Actually want a quick tangent here, but I wonder how it would work for lunar adventures. Maybe only when on the side of the moon facing the sun, or when the light from Golarion shines on the moon, or just all the time. Sorry for the aside, I just thought that was interesting.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
NemoNoname wrote:
Sorry, let me rephrase it. Wizards didn't used to be ONLY focused on buffing others. I remember time when Haste meant casting more spells.
When has haste ever let you do that?
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You seem very determined to misunderstand my arguments.
Repeatedly saying I'm misunderstanding/misinterpreting you isn't really helping your stance.
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Releasing things later is fine. BUT. We don't know what they will release.
And?
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Also, no point in putting something bad with intention to fix it later. Much better to admit it's not gonna work until you release that later stuff and release something else done well.
Okay, now you're arguing malicious intent on the Designers. That they intentionally made the wizard "bad" just because. They didn't. You just don't like the options we have so far. You not liking something does not mean that option is bad.
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That is quite untrue. Druids have access to additional highly useable Transmutation spells Wizards do not, especially on the critical low levels. Wizards have barely any Transmutation spells Druids do not have access. This means Druids are better transmuters than Wizards.
They currently have a few more spells, that's it. That doesn't make them better Transmuters. Wizard's conversely get bonus spell slots for their specialization.
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I really don't know how to explain it anymore to you.
You came out of left field with the insult that I don't want mechanics to support roleplay and that i'm trying to convince everyone P2 is perfect (where???), and when I responded with "lol what?" you went on a tangent about monk's shouting "magic missile" every time" they hit someone. I have no clue what you're rambling about.
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I never said that. I said we can't know, and that is why I'm making these threads, to hopefully point out the existing problems.
These posts are really going beyond "we can't know" into "they're not and we shouldn't assume they are".
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This is entirely incorrect summation of my position. First of all, I never said Wizards are bad at Transmutation. Just that they aren't as good as Druids. There is a major difference between these two claims.
you've been calling them bad choice/bad options that are broke this entire thread.
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I also never claimed it's about uniqueness itself.
Druids having Wild Shape seems to be a point of contention for you though.
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For example, despite Druid having one more summoning spell, I consider Conjuration Specialist Wizard is quite nicely. Its Focus power is correctly supporting its core functionality.
Cool. They gonna be really neat come Bestiary 2.
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Hardly. Try playing, you'll notice it comes in hand rarely. It can only be used for instantaneous activities (but not as a reaction); using it for saves is sometimes possible but very rarely. Also, you use it once and then it's gone for the fight and some time after, depending on time pressure.
I have, there's already been a time it would have worked nicely. Also you poisons and diseases as well as Hazards that you know about.
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Didn't say it's not. But one spell useable for several levels cannot really carry a whole class concept.
It can't. The class a) has other things and b) it getting more and more as more books come out.
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I define a bad choice in this context as a choice of class whose niche is equally or better filled with a different class, that also has additional powers.
A Transmuter Wizard and a Wild Shaping Druid are two completely different things. "I know spells from the Transmutation school of magic" isn't a niche for either.
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You can repeat they're not better as many times as you like, you won't magically make it true. Most of the additional spells Druid gets will see regular use.
Depends, most are situational, either on environment or party make up. Moon Frenzy? Highly party and opponent situational.
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You cannot guarantee it is false, unless you are a sock puppet of one of the developers and you already have additional information.
Hmm, Wizard's are a Core class and popular and the favourite of the Lead Designer, they're bound to get cool stuff as more books past the Core book come out? Nah, I'm just going to accuse the other person of being a sock-puppet.
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They can still make it different in other schools, or make only less relevant spell the difference. I remember Crafters Curse and Crafters Fortune and Damp Powder. It's easy to dump useless situational spells on Arcane list and call it "different".
Or we could not do that.
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Did they put a lot of thought in it? Yes. But that is no guarantee that differentiation is actually good. In fact, after listening to Mark Seifters' comments on how they worked on the lists, I'm really fearful for future.

In particular, they seemed very focused on balancing the 4 lists. But that ignores the problem that spells are all a Wizard has, while every other caster class comes with additional powers and proficiencies.

And for that we shall have to wait and see, whether it be spells or Class Feats or Class Archetypes.
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I cannot comprehend how you managed to get this from the sentences I wrote and you quote. I'll repeat the sentences here, just so it's clear:

"Not to mention Focus spell is stupidly baked into the Specialist rules. They can override it, but again, no reason to believe they will unless people complain."

What does the repeated statement state other than you don't want Specialists to have the Focus spells? And that you want the Designers to take em out or make them pickable, thus taking away from the point of being a Specialist?
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That won't help because proficiency gained for the Unconventional Weapon won't scale with level. Which it would for every other class.

Wizard's only get to Expert with their starting Weapon Proficiencies, at level 11.

Unconventional Weaponry and Weapon Proficiency gets you Trained at 3, so your on par till 11, where Daggers will only have a +2 on your Longsword, barring other feats and the like later. Again, on a Wizard.


Rysky wrote:
When has haste ever let you do that?

DnD 3rd edition.

Rysky wrote:
Repeatedly saying I'm misunderstanding/misinterpreting you isn't really helping your stance.

Neither is trying to discuss these things with you. I repeatedly point out how you're misunderstanding and misrepresenting my points.

Rysky wrote:
Okay, now you're arguing malicious intent on the Designers. That they intentionally made the wizard "bad" just because. They didn't. You just don't like the options we have so far. You not liking something does not mean that option is bad.

I'm not arguing malicious, just that they felt it was more important to release anything rather than make sure it's fun to use.

Rysky wrote:
They currently have a few more spells, that's it. That doesn't make them better Transmuters. Wizard's conversely get bonus spell slots for their specialization.

Having more spell slots without decent spells to fill them is not useful. And yes, that additional spells make Druids better Transmuters because at least some of those spells are both very useful and very thematic.

Rysky wrote:
and that i'm trying to convince everyone P2 is perfect (where???)

Every post I've seen of you on this forum has been either:

1) shouting "woooow" to some blog post
OR
2) shutting down anyone who dares to raise a potential problem or something they dislike.
From my point of view, this certainly seems like you think P2 is perfect.
Rysky wrote:
These posts are really going beyond "we can't know" into "they're not and we shouldn't assume they are".

We shouldn't assume they are. We don't - can't - know, and thus, we shouldn't assume they are.

Rysky wrote:
Druids having Wild Shape seems to be a point of contention for you though.

It is not. Druids SHOULD have Wild Shape. However, I do think Wild Morph was not needed. Furthermore, Transmuters SHOULD have something akin to Wild Morph from start.

Rysky wrote:
A Transmuter Wizard and a Wild Shaping Druid are two completely different things. "I know spells from the Transmutation school of magic" isn't a niche for either.

And what is the niche for Transmuter Wizard? Again, it's not purely about knowing. It's about having and using the tools.

Rysky wrote:
Hmm, Wizard's are a Core class and popular and the favourite of the Lead Designer, they're bound to get cool stuff as more books past the Core book come out? Nah, I'm just going to accuse the other person of being a sock-puppet.

Wizards might be. Transmuters? Who knows.

Rysky wrote:
Or we could not do that.

I guess we could always pretend everything is perfect, and anything that comes will also be perfect.

Rysky wrote:
What does the repeated statement state other than you don't want Specialists to have the Focus spells? And that you want the Designers to take em out or make them pickable, thus taking away from the point of being a Specialist?

I never said I don't want Specialist Wizards to have Focus spells. Just that these SPECIFIC spells aren't baked into the class. It's actually quite simple. Instead of writing:

"You learn the warped terrain school spell."
"You learn the charming words school spell."
...
They should have written:
"You learn a level 1 Focus spell of your school."
Rysky wrote:
You came out of left field with the insult that I don't want mechanics to support roleplay

Not an insult, an observation based on your repeated claims. For example:

Rysky wrote:
Unconventional Weaponry and Weapon Proficiency gets you Trained at 3, so your on par till 11, where Daggers will only have a +2 on your Longsword, barring other feats and the like later. Again, on a Wizard.

This makes it abundantly clear you don't care how mechanics interact with character concepts.

===================================================================

While these discussions didn't have any purpose to start with, I just give up. You've won! Congratulations!


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Another point in favor of wizards over druids is that wizards have more flexibility with prepared spells than druids. For druids any utility spells you want you have to pick at the start of the day before you encounter any challenges to be overcome by utility spells. And you have to pick how many.

Wizards, however, have an arcane bond and spell substitution thesis. Which means they can prepare utility spells they think are more time-sensitive (fly, air bubble if you expect water, feather fall, etc) and swap those out if they aren't in the middle of a combat. And if they expect to need one knock but find out they need two they can pop a second one out through their arcane bond. And transmuters have a bonus spell slot at each level meaning these utility spells aren't cutting into their battle-spells relative to the druid. And they get a free spell slot in their book each level to help offset the cost of loading up on utility from the transmutation school.

Perhaps these benefits aren't valuable to all, but I think combined they make one of the most flexible casters in the game and put transmuters above druids for non-combat magic.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
NemoNoname wrote:
DnD 3rd edition.
3.0 allowed for an extra "partial action", not sure what that is but I don't think it would allow for a second spell cast, and 3.5's explicitly said no extra spells.
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Neither is trying to discuss these things with you. I repeatedly point out how you're misunderstanding and misrepresenting my points.
Not really.I'm not arguing malicious, just that they felt it was more important to release anything rather than make sure it's fun to use.That is in fact arguing maliciousness on the part of the Designers.
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Having more spell slots without decent spells to fill them is not useful. And yes, that additional spells make Druids better Transmuters because at least some of those spells are both very useful and very thematic.

Which again is soon alleviated.

Few and far between i'd say, Moon Frenzy is very cool and thematic, but not something you could effectively use every fight.

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Every post I've seen of you on this forum has been either:

1) shouting "woooow" to some blog post

Where? Are you talking about the web fiction blog posts or?
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2) shutting down anyone who dares to raise a potential problem or something they dislike.

From my point of view, this certainly seems like you think P2 is perfect.
I get into disagreements yes, but I doubt I "shut anyone down" (unless the debate is a moral one, but that doesn't have anything to do with the P2 system in itself), these forums are filled with disagreements. I comment on ones that catch my eye. And I was rather vocal about my distaste for Bulk for starters. I'm sure I'll have more complaints as everything goes on, but the game is still new. I'm still not sure how I feel about the Medicine skill.
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We shouldn't assume they are. We don't - can't - know, and thus, we shouldn't assume they are.
We can't assume they're going to make more stuff for the Wizard?
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It is not. Druids SHOULD have Wild Shape. However, I do think Wild Morph was not needed. Furthermore, Transmuters SHOULD have something akin to Wild Morph from start.
If I had to guess, I'm guessing it's that Druids lean more Martial than Wizards. An ability similar to Wild Morph really wouldn't do most Wizards a lot of good.
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And what is the niche for Transmuter Wizard? Again, it's not purely about knowing. It's about having and using the tools.
Precisely, and right now we only have the Core Rulebook. Bestiary 2 is coming out soon mainly to help Conjurers for example.
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Wizards might be. Transmuters? Who knows.
Transmutation is an entire School of Magic, again this is you already deciding they're not going to give them anything.
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I guess we could always pretend everything is perfect, and anything that comes will also be perfect.
I was talking about adding useless spells.
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I never said I don't want Specialist Wizards to have Focus spells. Just that these SPECIFIC spells aren't baked into the class. It's actually quite simple. Instead of writing:

"You learn the warped terrain school spell."
"You learn the charming words school spell."
...
They should have written:
"You learn a level 1 Focus spell of your school."

Then you could have just said you wanted more Focus spells to pick from, which is perfectly reasonable. And it's not that far out there for them to do this. "In place of [school focus spell x] you can select [new focus spell y]", they had alternate school abilities in P1.
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Not an insult, an observation based on your repeated claims.
Throwing out "sock puppet" as a way to discredit someone just because they disgree with you is just insulting.
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For example:
Rysky wrote:
Unconventional Weaponry and Weapon Proficiency gets you Trained at 3, so your on par till 11, where Daggers will only have a +2 on your Longsword, barring other feats and the like later. Again, on a Wizard.
This makes it abundantly clear you don't care how mechanics interact with character concepts.
... huh?
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While these discussions didn't have any purpose to start with, I just give up. You've won! Congratulations!

... this is sad.


Paradozen wrote:

Another point in favor of wizards over druids is that wizards have more flexibility with prepared spells than druids. For druids any utility spells you want you have to pick at the start of the day before you encounter any challenges to be overcome by utility spells. And you have to pick how many.

Wizards, however, have an arcane bond and spell substitution thesis. Which means they can prepare utility spells they think are more time-sensitive (fly, air bubble if you expect water, feather fall, etc) and swap those out if they aren't in the middle of a combat. And if they expect to need one knock but find out they need two they can pop a second one out through their arcane bond. And transmuters have a bonus spell slot at each level meaning these utility spells aren't cutting into their battle-spells relative to the druid. And they get a free spell slot in their book each level to help offset the cost of loading up on utility from the transmutation school.

Perhaps these benefits aren't valuable to all, but I think combined they make one of the most flexible casters in the game and put transmuters above druids for non-combat magic.

So there's three points here: Arcane Bond, extra spell, and Spell Substitution.

Arcane Bond is a nice bonus, no two ways about it. Fairly flexible.
Extra spell is also a big bonus.
Spell Substitution is only useable if you take it. And personally, I don't think it's nearly as good as you think. It depends highly on situation and the GM. You need to both know what new spell is needed, have the spell in your spellbook, and then have the 10 minutes to switch it over.

On the other hand, Druids have better melee capability, have access to Heals, and will have a big bonus from their Order - Tempest Surge is crazy good debuff + decent damage, Animal Companions are quite useful, and of course - Wild Shape provides you not just with fighting ability, but from level 3 onward with major movement options and other miscellaneous abilities. All of which frees your spell slots for other purposes.

However, none of this is neither here nor there. Even with all of this, Druid is still a better Transmuter because it has access more different spells. Not Moon Frenzy, but stuff like Animal Form, Entangle, Insect Form. And no, I'm not saying Wizard should have these spells, but Wizards should have some spells and abilities Druids don't.

Here's what I would have liked. Shifting Form to be Focus 1 power, that starts with weaker abilities/numbers and heightens to better abilities/numbers. Then, for advanced power, I have several different ideas. Maybe a simple +1 AC / saves when you are polymorphed. Or a reaction that allows you to cast a Polymorph spell with one less action.

Also, giving battle form polymorph to Wizards at lower level, latest 2nd level spell.

Not related to main discussion:
I also strongly dislike Arcane Bond and Spell Substitution as I feel it harms the core Wizard gameplay, which was intelligently preparing your spells in the morning.

==================

Just have to comment on a small note here:

Rysky wrote:

Throwing out "sock puppet" as a way to discredit someone just because they disgree with you is just insulting.

For that, I apologise. It was not my intention to call you a sock puppet, just to point out that you cannot know with certainty anything unless you are a developer.

And anyway, my quote you respond to in this case referenced a different thing you accused me of using as an insult. Which also wasn't intended as an insult, but it was meant as a statement of impression you leave.


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NemoNoName wrote:
And personally, I don't think it's nearly as good as you think. It depends highly on situation and the GM. You need to both know what new spell is needed, have the spell in your spellbook, and then have the 10 minutes to switch it over.

Understandable. Last things I have to say regarding why I value spell substitution more than you are these:

While you need to have the spell in your book, in the context where you use spell substitution you would already know which of the tools in your spellbook toolbox is best, so what new spell is needed will somewhat reveal itself in play. You do need to structure your spellbook carefully to get the most usage out of it though.

As for needing the 10 minutes, a lot of the game assumes you will get 10 minutes here and there. Like, most of exploration mode is broken down to 10 minute chunks. So I suspect many published adventures will periodically include 10 minute or longer gaps. Similarly, some campaigns will naturally include somewhat frequent stretches of 10 minutes or more. So I think it is a restriction that will not apply enough to make the thesis a bad pick. It isn't my favorite, but it is my favorite for transmuters due to the nature of the school.


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NemoNoName wrote:
I'm not arguing malicious, just that they felt it was more important to release anything rather than make sure it's fun to use.

I think the thing you're missing here is that just because it's not fun for you, doesn't mean the majority of others think so too. For instance, I see there starting focus ability as useful and fun and you don't... Was it wrong for them to make an ability that I think is useful and fun because it didn't mean your vision of a non-buffing transmuter? Are abilities meant to be usable be everyone all the time no matter the circumstances in your mind?

Physical Boost: I know the time I had someone have this in the party, it got used all the time. In combat, trips and grapples boosted and when the wizard was trying to get away from a Vine Lasher and out of combat it was used to break down a door, boost saves vs a trap being disarmed and for jumps.

Wizards and melee: This seems to be the main issue you have IMO. The druid, with it's wildshaping, has that built into the class and the spell list at it's base as it's a main focus of the class. The wizard is more diverse in it's focuses, even specialists. Just taking a look at PF1 and it's base powers were a buff and Telekinetic Fist, neither one jumped out as super fun for a melee wizard. It took the APG to get the Shapechange School and something like that might scratch your 'melee wizard' itch.


Paradozen wrote:
While you need to have the spell in your book, in the context where you use spell substitution you would already know which of the tools in your spellbook toolbox is best, so what new spell is needed will somewhat reveal itself in play. You do need to structure your spellbook carefully to get the most usage out of it though.

Partially, yes. But my point is, you do have to have some appropriate spell in the spellbook. And frankly, I'm not sure this is a school specific thing, especially not now.

Paradozen wrote:
As for needing the 10 minutes, a lot of the game assumes you will get 10 minutes here and there. Like, most of exploration mode is broken down to 10 minute chunks. So I suspect many published adventures will periodically include 10 minute or longer gaps. Similarly, some campaigns will naturally include somewhat frequent stretches of 10 minutes or more. So I think it is a restriction that will not apply enough to make the thesis a bad pick.

I don't think you understood me. I fully agree on this point, but to be able to use your spell thesis, this must be a situation where you know what is coming, AND have enough time to prepare for it.

Let me give an example of what I mean. If you're being chased by some monsters and you could escape by diving into water, the thesis won't help because you won't have the 10 minutes switch out your spells for water walking or breathing.
If you scout ahead and notice Fire Elementals, you might have 10 minutes to swap out your Fireball. But you might not, either.
So, I'm not saying the thesis won't be useful. But there is limited scope where it would be useful. And remember, there's usually other things to do with 10 min breaks.

Paradozen wrote:
It isn't my favorite, but it is my favorite for transmuters due to the nature of the school.

Perfectly fine, although let me ask you this: is it that you truly expect to be swapping Transmutation spells around? Or is it something else that makes it feel fitting?

Personally, I always found the swamping of situational spells in Transmutaiton school weird. It should be the school which has few flexible spells instead of ton of super-specific ones. But whatever.

@graystone : It's true others might find the Focus power fun. My problem is that neither Focus nor spells give us any morphing or polymorphing until level 7. Or any other fun stuff.
I really miss Animate Rope... That was a fun and flavourful 1st level spell.

Also, about melee. I actually want polymorphing and melee is a side-effect of that. XD At least for this Transmuter Wizards.
Plus, I played enough Longbow-wielding Elf Wizards when I was a kid. I'm trying to move away from that trope.

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