Racial Feat Sparsity leading to Adopted Ancestry


Rules Discussion


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One problem I've been having is that in some cases, specifically the non-human ones, there feels like there's not really enough racial feats to provide good options, particularly at later levels. To look at a specific example, consider elves:
* 1st level: Lots of options, yay!
* 5th level: 2 options, 1 requires you to take one specific 1st level option.
* 9th level: 2 options, 1 requires you to take one specific 1st level option.
* 13th level: 2 options, both require you to have taken specific earlier options.

Sure, you can opt to take a 1st level feat for some of these, but sometimes they're underwhelming/don't fit your character concept. I think this leads to a lot of people taking "Adopted Ancestry" simply to open up their options to racial feats (not trying to game the system, just have an option that is reasonable).

I realize some of this will get fixed as more books come out, but it's rather unfortunate as things stand now that there really aren't a lot of options in some cases. I do feel like Humans in general avoid this, as they have more feats and can also just take a 1st level general feat if they'd like, of which there are a lot, so it provides a good range.


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I think there's a lot of major holes still for all the ancerstries as far as feats go. I was hoping the ancestry feats would be varied and be suited to a variety of different classes to help avoid the pigeonholing problem of all other D&D derivatives. But a lot of stuff is just plain bad.

I think part of the problem is that ancestry feats aren't clearly defined in their power budget. Some ancestry feats are essentially a skill feat, others are on par with class feats. Some literally are class feats, particularly Humans who can get a 1st level class feat with one of their ancestry feats (p damn good) or get a free multiclass dedication while ignoring archetype feat restrictions (REALLY good to the point where I would say it's an automatic choice for virtually all human characters, good enough to dip into Adopted Ancestry just for that).

Meanwhile, [url=https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=82[Monstrous Peacemaker[/ul] is just... what? A +1 circumstance bonus to Diplomacy and Sense Motive against giants, goblins, et cetera? A bonus that can't stack with basically anything in the moment? Why would someone give up any of the more useful Human heritages just to take this piece of s%!+ feat? It's invalidated by just offering food to whoever you're talking to, anything that'd give you that +1 bonus renders this feat moot and it's already a very small bonus to a pretty niche situation anyways. Why is the player being asked to choose between this and an extra class feat? Why are they even in the same feat bucket?


We will probably get more in the advanced players guide and the lost omens character guides at least.

I think the biggest problem that leads to this sparcity is that the weapon familiarity tree of feats that at first glance is the option for martial characters, at a more in depth look you realise most, if not all of what the tree does, is already covered by the class features of martial classes, which means that the roughly 1 third of current ancestry feats that the weapon tree makes up aren't widely useful.


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Tender Tendrils wrote:

We will probably get more in the advanced players guide and the lost omens character guides at least.

I think the biggest problem that leads to this sparcity is that the weapon familiarity tree of feats that at first glance is the option for martial characters, at a more in depth look you realise most, if not all of what the tree does, is already covered by the class features of martial classes, which means that the roughly 1 third of current ancestry feats that the weapon tree makes up aren't widely useful.

Well, even for martial characters, the feats that grant access to advanced weapons that scale with your martial proficiency (something even class feats, in particular multiclass archetypes, won't offer - nothing else in the game will give you properly scaling proficiency for weapons or armor) is a bit obnoxiously strong. Advanced weapons have an overall higher power budget, and weapons like the Gnome Flickmace are almost strictly superior to any other 1h weapon. They can represent a real, always-on damage boost using relatively few resources, and that makes them extremely attractive as a combat feat, better than a lot of class feats.

Which makes it strange that they're sharing space with Fey Fellowship, which is yet again a very niche bonus along with a "wipe my ass" feat that requires the GM to actually follow the minutia of the social rules which I've never ever ever seen an actual GM do because it's clunky and gets in the way of actually roleplaying. It's just something you kind of expected to be able to do anyways, but now that there's a feat that details how you're breaking the otherwise overly formalized conversation rules anyone who takes the feat kind of forces everyone else to start using the pain in the ass action system for every little conversation.

Iunno, I feel advanced weapons gained through ancestries are a bit too good for how much investment they take, it feels a bit like you're leaving a lot of power on the table by not taking them which sucks if you really do want to play with a regular 'ole sword. A lot of the appeal of advanced weapons was that they're unusual to have, they're unorthodox. In PF1 the need to invest in them meant real opportunity costs that made most builds stick with martial weapons, but with PF2 Ancestry feats having so much junk it seems very hard to pass up a real boost to your weaponry.

I don't know if just adding more Ancestry feats will quite fix that, and maybe advanced weapons aren't nearly as good as they seem. But a 1h reach weapon dealing d8 damage while also possibly tripping people on a crit if you've got the critical specialization is strong in a way a lot of other feats aren't, it's a bit comparable to MC'ing to get Rage or something in terms of its damage boost over a similar weapon.


Helmic wrote:
Tender Tendrils wrote:

We will probably get more in the advanced players guide and the lost omens character guides at least.

I think the biggest problem that leads to this sparcity is that the weapon familiarity tree of feats that at first glance is the option for martial characters, at a more in depth look you realise most, if not all of what the tree does, is already covered by the class features of martial classes, which means that the roughly 1 third of current ancestry feats that the weapon tree makes up aren't widely useful.

Well, even for martial characters, the feats that grant access to advanced weapons that scale with your martial proficiency (something even class feats, in particular multiclass archetypes, won't offer - nothing else in the game will give you properly scaling proficiency for weapons or armor) is a bit obnoxiously strong. Advanced weapons have an overall higher power budget, and weapons like the Gnome Flickmace are almost strictly superior to any other 1h weapon. They can represent a real, always-on damage boost using relatively few resources, and that makes them extremely attractive as a combat feat, better than a lot of class feats. Which makes it strange that they're sharing space with Fey Fellowship, which is yet again a very niche bonus along with a "wipe my ass" feat that requires the GM to actually follow the minutia of the social rules which I've never ever ever seen an actual GM do because it's clunky and gets in the way of actually roleplaying.

Except in those cases where the ancestry has no advanced weapon (I'm looking at you, goblin weapon expertise)


I'm hoping every book has more ancestry feats in it. Right now, for example, if you're a dwarf who takes unburdened iron (a completely sensible ancestry feat for a heavy armor character or a mountain style monk) there's no 5th level feat you can take, so you have to take another 1st level one at 5th.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Yeah, but hopefully by the time you get to 5th, there will be new books out.

This is only really a problem for those weirdos who insist on starting play with high level characters. /tongue-in-cheek


Ravingdork wrote:
Yeah, but hopefully by the time you get to 5th, there will be new books out.

It was in a LOCG thread in which Luis Loza (IIRC) confirmed there would be feats in the LOCG. So only a few more weeks, I guess.

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